6 replies to this topic

[Mazikar]

Physics.... I will leave the fact it was never a doable thing in the old pen and paper to the fact that if you tried it you would be rolling a larger damage dice to yourself. A simple physics model with recoil would put a forever end to jump AC snipers... but the first day would be priceless post patch. I want to see videos!

What? That leaves out the PPC pop-tarts??? Even better... put a drain on energy weapons while using jumpjets... a simple ratio based on fuel level such as half the fuel half the power/damage... and if that doesn't curb it add a heat multiplier on top of it. You figure a mech dumps almost 75% of its fuel to get high enough to shoot so that would leave you with only 25% power to your weapons thus a 10 damage ppc would only do 2.5 damage and only be effective for 25% of the normal distance.... so it would stay in the realm of reality and curb a rather aggravating tactic.


Better ideas welcome... just complaining never solves anything though... lets give them ideas too.

[Eddrick]

Armored Core has something like this. Boosters (Simlar to our Jump Jets. But, they allow you to move in more directions besides up and forward) and Energy Weapons, both run off of the same energy supply. The game also has Recoil. Which, pushes you backward. Especialy, when in the air.

If you landed hard in the game. You would stop for a second or two to regain balance. In MWO's case, likely also take leg damage. This is more so true, with the changes to fall damage.

[OznerpaG]

Lotharian, on 05 June 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

What? That leaves out the PPC pop-tarts??? Even better... put a drain on energy weapons while using jumpjets... a simple ratio based on fuel level such as half the fuel half the power/damage... and if that doesn't curb it add a heat multiplier on top of it. You figure a mech dumps almost 75% of its fuel to get high enough to shoot so that would leave you with only 25% power to your weapons thus a 10 damage ppc would only do 2.5 damage and only be effective for 25% of the normal distance.... so it would stay in the realm of reality and curb a rather aggravating tactic.


Better ideas welcome... just complaining never solves anything though... lets give them ideas too.

brilliant idea - the JJ fuel meter being damage% meter on energy weapons since the engine powers the JJ and has to build up energy again to fire energy weapons at full power. could be PPC only since they pop out all their damage at once so need a big energy spike to fire while lasers do it over 1sec so need less power at once to fire

might be easier if it affected only damage output and not range

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Lotharian, on 05 June 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

What? That leaves out the PPC pop-tarts???

PPCs are described as having recoil so I think they would be affected as well.

[Lykaon]

Lotharian, on 05 June 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Physics.... I will leave the fact it was never a doable thing in the old pen and paper to the fact that if you tried it you would be rolling a larger damage dice to yourself. A simple physics model with recoil would put a forever end to jump AC snipers... but the first day would be priceless post patch. I want to see videos!

What? That leaves out the PPC pop-tarts??? Even better... put a drain on energy weapons while using jumpjets... a simple ratio based on fuel level such as half the fuel half the power/damage... and if that doesn't curb it add a heat multiplier on top of it. You figure a mech dumps almost 75% of its fuel to get high enough to shoot so that would leave you with only 25% power to your weapons thus a 10 damage ppc would only do 2.5 damage and only be effective for 25% of the normal distance.... so it would stay in the realm of reality and curb a rather aggravating tactic.


Better ideas welcome... just complaining never solves anything though... lets give them ideas too.

So penalize all jump jet using mechs because some mechs are poptarts?

Search a bit deeper and you will find that jump jets are not the root of poptarting.

The answer lies in what types of weapons are exclusivley used in poptart meta play.

When if ever have you ever seen a forum posting complaining about that er-lrg laser and LRM poptart meta?Or the LB10x and SRM poptart meta?...never?

The thing is poptarting is an evolved tactic to maximize the effective deployment of pinpoint front loaded damage weapon groupings.Poptarting is the best way to use defensive cover and still allow offensive strikes.

So say you nerf the poptart meta through nerfing jumping or all instances of weapon use while jumping (crippling many light and medium mech techniques that are not at all poptart related issues)

The very next week you will see the complaints shift from "poptarts" to front loaded damage alpha strikes with pin point accuracy.

Not sure if you were kickin around here around a year ago when the huge gripe on the forums were thread after thread complaining about 6 PPC stalkers or the Gauss and 3 PPC highlanders or whatever combination of FLD pinpoint alpha weapons could get you 40+ damage in one trigger pull.

The results? Ghostheat was added in and the weapon selection altered to fit the new rules set while continuing to exploit the advantages of front loading pinpoint alpha damage.

About this time is where the poptart meta became very dominant (you see the stalker chassis was removed from the meta by now requiring ACs and PPC and not just PPCs) The Highlander and Cataphract 3D became the choice platforms then we had the Victor added and it was good for the meta.

So I can predict right now that if poptarting becomes a nonviable tactic the new meta will be to now include more ground bound chassis like Atlas DDC with ECM 2 PPCs 2 ac 5s to allow the ECM to prevent passively detecting the poke and shoot sniping that will replace poptarting.

Players will still abuse the hell out of the FLD pinpoint mechanic and jumping and shooting would be nerfed for lights and mediums as a defensive technique making them more vulnerable to the still dominant FLD meta.

Edited by Lykaon, 06 June 2014 - 12:24 AM.

[Lykaon]

A better idea would be to remove the front loaded damage mechanics from pinpoint weapons.

The culprits are

AC5s
AC10s
AC20s
PPC
ER-PPCs
Gauss Rifles

The solutions would be to normalize damage application methods with those mechanics that have as of yet not been triggering catastrophic failures in game balance.

So,if we look at how lasers apply damage and how this has as of yet not been sitting at the heart of catastrophic mechanics failure we can try this out in several variations in concept if not in precise execution.

So if autocannons fired as a burst of damage with several projectiles each causing a portion of the total damage value of the shot we would have removed the FLD and pinpoint mechanics from the ACs.As a result they no longer posses the ideal mechanics to pair with poptarting and will not be used to poptart.

Now the frequently used counter argument to this option is either 1) it removes diversity of tactics or 2) it removes diversity of mechanics.

As for removal of diversity of tactics,tough,the mechanics presented in front loaded pinpoint weapons is harmful to the game's balance and growth.This is an utterly hollow argument because the option is do nothing and have no diversity in tactics as more and more players adapt to the meta and use identical builds and tactics (everyone is a FLD pinpoint poptart alpha spammer) or more and more players grow tired of it and leave the game (everyone not playing FLD pinpoint alpha spammer quits) result no diversity by not doing anything.

As for remove of diversity of mechanics or as is better illistrated in this following question...

"If an AC does damage over time and a laser does damage over time isn't an AC a reskinned laser?"

A weapon is more than the damage application method it uses.There are still several important features of a weapon that make it perform differently.Let's look at Lasers vs Burst fire ACs.

ACCURACY:
Lasers have an nigh instant "projectile" speed this lends it's self to being a highly accurate weapon choice.
ACs have slower projectile speeds causing slightly more instances of missing.

IMPULSE:
AC weapon when they strike a target produce an impulse effect on the target causing the target to be knocked around a bit based upon the AC type.This impulse negativley effects accuracy when the target is hit by an AC.
Lasers produce no impulse and do not negativley effect the target's accuracy when they are hit by a laser.

VISABILITY:
Lasers produce illuminated beams of light that are easily seen and traced back to the source.As a result of this feature laser using mechs have significant difficulties in remaining hidden while shooting.
ACs do not produce illuminated tracer lines to their location and as a result are more suitable for covert sniping.

HEAT to DAMAGE RATIO:
Lasers do not require ammo to fire.however lasers do require cooling to disperse the waste heat produced by the laser.This causes a lower "engagment life" for the laser weapon as it will more rapidly than an AC build heat and trigger a shut down.
AC run cooler than lasers but do require ammo.An AC will have a longer "engagment life" over the laser but also have ammo as a limiting factor.

Over all the balance between the Lasers and the ACs will be

Lasers are lighter but run hotter
ACs are heavier and larger (crit slots) but run cooler
ACs make for better sniping weapons because thay are harder to detect when firing
ACs are slightly less accurate than a laser
ACs have higher DPS values but require ammo.

So no a laser and a burst fire AC are not at all exactaly alike.

Edited by Lykaon, 06 June 2014 - 12:54 AM.

[OznerpaG]

i don't think any of the AC weapons are a problem with their pinpoint damage - for all intents and purposes the AC5, AC10 and Gauss w/ammo do less damage per ton cost compared to a PPC so it's impossible to boat them without a HUGE penalty (like stupidly slow speed w/4 ac5).

all the ACs deliver less damage per weight cost plus have a finite amount of ammo that also cost tonnage, while the PPC delivers more damage per weight cost while getting 'free ammo' - 20 'free' engine DHS


i think all the problems of pinpoint can be solved just by 'fixing' only the PPC - the JJ idea is a good excuse to force people to expose themselves for longer to fire a PPC, as opposed to a pop-tart who exposes themselves for just a second then drops out of sight

Edited by JagdFlanker, 06 June 2014 - 07:19 AM.