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9 General Laws Of Combat And Command


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#1 990Dreams

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:20 PM

So I recently though of virtues that have aided me i everything from MW:O to CoD to MechCommander 2. I've compiled them and cases here. Some laws are only general, and could be tweaked. Some laws are historically backed. So without further ado,

The 9 General Laws of Combat & Command

1: The smart, strong, and/or brutal will live



Case: The smart have the ability to generally escape a bad situation. Even if they are weaker than their enemy, they can think their way around/out of a situation. The strong can generally muscle their survival. They may not always catch a foe, but they'll live to fight another day. The brutal needs little explanation. They will do whatever it takes to live. They'll get as low-down and dirty as possible if it means achieving their goals.

2: The stupid, weak, and/or lazy will die



Case: The stupid would be outsmarted and killed, falling into whatever traps may be set up. If they don't have the strength to fight out of a bad situation, it means death. The weak will almost always fall to a stronger/smarter man, unless they have the brains to outsmart their predator. The lazy simply don't have the will to put in the effort to live. They just lie down and die.

3: If you can take a better weapon, take it



Case: If I gave you a choice between a Panzer V or an M1 Abrams, which would you choose? What about a mud-ball or an AR-15? The Panzer would lose to the Abrams because the Abrams is more armored, faster, and more powerful in general. An AR-15 would out-range and out gun a ball of wet dirt any day. If you can get stronger, get stronger.

4: If you pay more for a weapon, it should be worth the extra cash



Case: If I had the choice between a Desert Eagle for $7000 and an M9 Beretta for $2000, I'd pick the M9. Why? Because it's cheaper, has more ammo, and is a generally reliable gun. What about a Glock for $1400? Then I'd pick a Glock. You should get the value out of your weapon. If a C-ER-PPC is only a little better than an ER-PPC, but costs 1.5 times as much, I'm gonna use the ER-PPC.

5: Patience is key



Case: At the Battle of Thermopylae, the Spartans didn't move position (until they had to). If you are in a good position, stay their and wait your enemy out (unless another, more important reason to move presents itself). Similarly, If I'm in a place that give me an advantage, why should I move? I have the upper hand. Another case of command, you should save for a better weapon. Instant gratification is not always good (unless it speeds up your progress to your goal). If you can save up for a Timber Wolf, do it.

6: Don't always think with your gun



Case: Sometimes, a boomstick will work. But if you've ever tried the Houdini Project, or the Dead End campaign, or Dark Rain, or Pictures of a Rebellion, you should know that you can sometimes do more with less. Speed can outrank firepower. Smarts can outrank strength. A single ERLL can beat an Atlas with an AC/20, because I just have to stay out of his range (and dodge a few bullets). You can beat an enemy unit with a smaller gun if you use it right.

7. The risk should never outweigh the reward by more than 50%



Case: This is a general rule, and can be tweaked. Let's say Red Team has 200 men, and Blue Team has 200 men. Let's say that Blue Team's men are 1.5x better than Red Team's men. Red Team would have to send in 150 men to combat Blue Team's 100 due to Blue Teams skill. This is a big risk, because if they lose they'll be out-manned 2/1. You should always weigh the risk and reward before making a decision. Otherwise you'll only win a Pyrrhic victory,

8: Molon Labe



Case: You should know this phrase roughly means "Come and take them". This was said by Leonidas to the Persians when the Persians demanded they give up their arms. Regardless of how stupid or inconsiderate your team is, you should never give up without a fight. This may be the saving grace of your team (it has been for me a few times). A battle is only as hopeless as the warrior(s) fighting it.

9: There is never a bad weapon/Mech/map. Only a bad marksman/pilot/commander.



Case: This is a bold statement and one that can get on people's nerves. But it is has truths to it. For example, I sold two of my Mechs today because I couldn't pilot them well (anymore). But my friend said that they were awesome Mechs. Just because you can't operate with something/someone doesn't mean it is bad. It simply means that it isn't good for you. Many people hate Terra Therma for example. I think that it is a fun (and somewhat repetitive) map. It isn't that one of us is right. It is that our opinions/tastes/tactics are different.

Notes:

For laws 1 & 2: You may have someone who is smart and weak. You notice how on the case for weak I mentioned: "unless they have the brains to outsmart their predator." Not all are always true. But they hold generally correct.

For law 3: You may note the choice comparison is a bit extreme. But that holds true for most cases, no mater how small the difference (although the difference in wins/losses will smooth out the less of a difference there is).

For law 4: Yes, I know the prices and qualities may be a bit exaggerated. But that is an example.

For law 7: Another case is Chess. You shouldn't make a bad trade, unless you know it will pay off later on in the game. Also, the "50%" is only a general rule. You can tweak it depending on what's at stake.

For law 9: There are some universally bad things. Say, an Atlas with no armor, no weapons and an Engine 100. The point and case of this law is better stated that "One man's trash is another man's treasure." Just because you do/don't like something does not mean that it is suddenly a universal fact.

Notice about the term 'bad'


In the usage of the adjective 'bad,' 'bad' is a relative term. Meaning a Panzer VI is bad to an Abrams, but good to a Sherman. Similarly an Abrams is bad to an Atlas but good to a T-12.

Constructive feedback is always welcome! No uncalled for rude comments or idiocy though :).

Edited by DavidHurricane, 01 August 2014 - 07:29 AM.


#2 Wintersdark

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:00 PM

Cost, in terms of MWO, are only relevant in terms of logistics: Tonnage and crit slots. Price of the weapon is irrelevant, because success in the battle is only determined by what's brought into the battle (that is, the pilot, and his mech). Saving 100,000 cbills to get a cheaper weapon that's maybe better "bang for the buck" but isn't as good as the more expensive weapon doesn't help the pilot win.

You don't get bonus damage for having cbills in your pocket.

#3 990Dreams

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:02 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 31 July 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Saving 100,000 cbills to get a cheaper weapon that's maybe better "bang for the buck" but isn't as good as the more expensive weapon doesn't help the pilot win.


Check rule 3. If it's good, go for it. If it isn't worth it, don't.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 31 July 2014 - 04:03 PM.


#4 Wintersdark

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:13 PM

View PostDavidHurricane, on 31 July 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:



Check rule 3. If it's good, go for it. If it isn't worth it, don't.


But "worth it" is a function entirely of weight and size vs. effect. C-bill cost is irrelevant, is all I'm saying. There's nothing in MWO that even approaches a cost that's prohibitive.

I point this out, largely because Rule 4 is quite specific:

Quote

If a C-ER-PPC is only a little better than an ER-PPC, but costs 1.5 times as much, I'm gonna use the ER-PPC.
In this case, I'd always use the CERPPC, given the option. It's just better. Maybe not a lot better, but better, and cost is irrelevant.

Now, if you changed this example to be, say, SRM4 or SRM6, where you get into size vs. effectiveness, then I'm on board completely :)

#5 990Dreams

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:37 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 31 July 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

But "worth it" is a function entirely of weight and size vs. effect. C-bill cost is irrelevant, is all I'm saying. There's nothing in MWO that even approaches a cost that's prohibitive.

I point this out, largely because Rule 4 is quite specific:
In this case, I'd always use the CERPPC, given the option. It's just better. Maybe not a lot better, but better, and cost is irrelevant.

Now, if you changed this example to be, say, SRM4 or SRM6, where you get into size vs. effectiveness, then I'm on board completely ;)


True, true. Anything else you agree/disagree with?

#6 STEF_

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:47 AM

Good thread, I like.
Sadly mwo still is too casual, so many laws are difficult to apply in casual teamates, unless playing private matches, of course.

#7 Kjudoon

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:57 AM

#8 actually goes against the history/spirit/lore of Battletech. If the fight is hopeless: Surrender. It is better your mech and you survive because there will come a day when your mech cannot be rebuilt. MWO perverts this without R&R.

#9. yes there are bad weapons, maps and mechs. Compared to bad marksman/pilot/commander they are small potatoes. You also left out the most important one: Bad teammate.

Otherwise, great stuff.

#8 Tomcat0815

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:00 AM

Doesn't rule 3 contradict rule 9 in a way? In rule 9 you state there is no bad mech, in rule 3 you state that the Panzer V is worse than the Abrams. Applying that to MWO, there should be bad mechs I understand.

#9 Zelumbras

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:13 AM

Overall i agree with most things but i find one important point missing (technically not entirely missing but only implied):

Rule #XY: remember that you are not fighting against a gun but rather a person holding a gun.
This is also true in MW:O when your greatest weapon is often not located in any hardpoint on your mech but rather in playing with the perception and emotions of your opponents. Throwing around a few keywords to tactics that just do that: Squirrel, Prey/Predator, Steamroll, Chokepoints (aka the fear of being singled out), Screenshake, Threat Perception etc.

#10 990Dreams

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:24 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 01 August 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

#8 actually goes against the history/spirit/lore of Battletech. If the fight is hopeless: Surrender. It is better your mech and you survive because there will come a day when your mech cannot be rebuilt. MWO perverts this without R&R.

#9. yes there are bad weapons, maps and mechs. Compared to bad marksman/pilot/commander they are small potatoes. You also left out the most important one: Bad teammate.

Otherwise, great stuff.


Response to #8: Most of the people in the canon are gutless. Your Mech will fail and you will die. I'd rather die fighting than as a POW.

Response to #9: Note that I said there are some universally bads. The point of that rule is to state that just because you don't like it doesn't make it "bad". It just makes it bad for you.

View PostTomcat0815, on 01 August 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Doesn't rule 3 contradict rule 9 in a way? In rule 9 you state there is no bad mech, in rule 3 you state that the Panzer V is worse than the Abrams. Applying that to MWO, there should be bad mechs I understand.


The Panzer is out-of-date compared to an Abrams. And note that in the notes for rule 9 I stated "There are some universally bads". Out of date Panzers are one of those.

View PostVulcan888, on 01 August 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

Overall i agree with most things but i find one important point missing (technically not entirely missing but only implied):

Rule #XY: remember that you are not fighting against a gun but rather a person holding a gun.
This is also true in MW:O when your greatest weapon is often not located in any hardpoint on your mech but rather in playing with the perception and emotions of your opponents. Throwing around a few keywords to tactics that just do that: Squirrel, Prey/Predator, Steamroll, Chokepoints (aka the fear of being singled out), Screenshake, Threat Perception etc.


Psychological warfare is definitely important. But it is more of a tactic than a rule/law. A rule is something that is generally correct, and doesn't need special effort o execute.. A tactic is something you have to know how to play correctly. Does that make sense?

Edited by DavidHurricane, 01 August 2014 - 07:24 AM.


#11 Kjudoon

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:27 AM

Quote

Most of the people in the canon are gutless. Your Mech will fail and you will die. I'd rather die fighting than as a POW.


Really? Or is it people playing MWO are able to act like barbarous nihilists due to no concept of real loss? Why have an Eject function? Why not make the game where the mech dies you have to create a new character as well and start all over? Internet tough guy syndrome does nobody any favors, especially in a gaming community.

You can label them cowards all you want, but let's face it, surrendering with honor is actually a time honored tradition in warfare save for when you are combating psychopathic jihadists a la the crusades where they are wars of faith/religion/philosophy that cannot be allowed to continue. Look at the napoleonic wars as one example where surrender with honor was a common practice and capturing equipment and locations intact was considered a gentleman's act because war was horrifying enough that descents into barbaric wanton destruction was unneccessary. Combine with this the modern codes of warfare.

Seriously, cowards? You wrote a lot of good stuff, but on this, I'm sorry, you're way wrong now with this addendum.

#12 Tim East

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:46 PM

View PostDavidHurricane, on 01 August 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Response to #8: Most of the people in the canon are gutless. Your Mech will fail and you will die. I'd rather die fighting than as a POW.

You should be a clanner.

#13 990Dreams

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:09 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 01 August 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:


Really? Or is it people playing MWO are able to act like barbarous nihilists due to no concept of real loss? Why have an Eject function? Why not make the game where the mech dies you have to create a new character as well and start all over? Internet tough guy syndrome does nobody any favors, especially in a gaming community.

You can label them cowards all you want, but let's face it, surrendering with honor is actually a time honored tradition in warfare save for when you are combating psychopathic jihadists a la the crusades where they are wars of faith/religion/philosophy that cannot be allowed to continue. Look at the napoleonic wars as one example where surrender with honor was a common practice and capturing equipment and locations intact was considered a gentleman's act because war was horrifying enough that descents into barbaric wanton destruction was unneccessary. Combine with this the modern codes of warfare.

Seriously, cowards? You wrote a lot of good stuff, but on this, I'm sorry, you're way wrong now with this addendum.


"Honorable cowardice." They didn't have the guts to face death. They were fine with killing other men and sending men to die, but didn't want to die themselves. They didn't die with their brothers-in-arms. Simply put, they don't have the courage to die. I'd respect a courageous dead man than a cowardly living one. If you have no ammo, resources, food or water, then I'll respect you. But I've seen people who have given up too early because 'their team sucks' or 'they were abandoned' when they really wandered off. I don't see how you can keep your honor/self-respect and be a coward at the same time.

View PostTim East, on 01 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

You should be a clanner.


The Clans hold themselves in too high a respect for me. But I do have some respect for them. Some. I don't like a lot of things about them. But I don't like a lot of things about a lot of people :P.

Addendum: If you are referring, Kjudoon to a general surrendering for the better of his men because the battle is hopeless (Paulus at Stalingrad), then the case is different. That is a general hoping to save his men. But in the small battles/skirmishes we talk about in MW:O, there is no 'future of my army' to think about. You better be ready to carry out your orders and die like a man. I don't see how you can quit and keep your dignity. You quit and pull back (say, leave Russia while you can to fight later) and keep your dignity. But in a company-company skirmish, you should be ready to die like a man (unless you have a more pressing matter than what you were assigned to attack/defend).

Edited by DavidHurricane, 01 August 2014 - 05:18 PM.


#14 Mr D One

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:14 PM

You forgot rule 10.

A decent ping and a stable sever connection.

#15 Kjudoon

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:29 PM

Quote

"Honorable cowardice." They didn't have the guts to face death. They were fine with killing other men and sending men to die, but didn't want to die themselves. They didn't die with their brothers-in-arms. Simply put, they don't have the courage to die. I'd respect a courageous dead man than a cowardly living one. If you have no ammo, resources, food or water, then I'll respect you. But I've seen people who have given up too early because 'their team sucks' or 'they were abandoned' when they really wandered off. I don't see how you can keep your honor/self-respect and be a coward at the same time.


Having honor also means showing grace to a vanquished foe when killing them/destroying their mech serves no good purpose. It is called "Giving Quarter" and considered to be a matter of honor among gentlemen. Something that mechwarriors, despite their crude way of showing it, often were to have.

Captured mechs are better than scrap and parts. This is a military tradition that stretches back 2000 years real time, so 3000 years in MWO time.

I understand that online gaming does not lend itself to this because they cannot suffer severe personal loss or death by failure. Of course, most gamers would never have the courage to put themself into a mech to fight, and those that have fought for real (as I do play with some veterans who have seen combat for real) have a sense of honor and distaste for unnecessary bloodshed and destruction.

Again, not having a real penalty to being overly bloodthirsty and careless with life and equipment, MWO does a disservice to the lore that is the basis for the game.

Edited by Kjudoon, 01 August 2014 - 05:33 PM.


#16 Tim East

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:52 PM

Even the clans give quarter, though they do it more at the start of battle rather than the end, if that makes any sense. By bidding away unnecessary forces at the batchall for a trial, they preserve their forces for strategic use. Furthermore, even though a clansman will fight so long as he is capable, they also know when a trial is lost, and will generally follow the custom of being made bondsman willingly. Non-combatants like techs are even more aware of their potential status as isorla. Basically, if your mech runs out of weapons, you're sort of expected to do right by the clans and preserve it, even if dying would bring you greater personal honor.

Jula Huddock is a fine example of this dichotomy between clan need for absolute efficiency and honorable death in combat. She disabled her autoeject system because she had outlived her mech several times previously, and earned a somewhat undeserved reputation for wastefulness. However, her commander explicitly stated to her during his review an approval of her actions in those engagements prior to her transfer to his unit.

tl;dr: Surrender appeals to the clanners' sense of efficiency, death in combat to their sense of honor. In any case where efficiency is the difference between clan victory or defeat, efficiency trumps honor. In all other circumstances, honor is more important. Clan honor(victory)>Personal honor(a "good" death)>everything else (compassion, love, freeborns, friends, whatever really).

Edited by Tim East, 01 August 2014 - 05:52 PM.


#17 Vezm

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:51 AM

A ball of mud is far more reliable than an AR-15...


ok ok I'll read the rest now :P

#18 990Dreams

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:18 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 01 August 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:


Having honor also means showing grace to a vanquished foe when killing them/destroying their mech serves no good purpose. It is called "Giving Quarter" and considered to be a matter of honor among gentlemen. Something that mechwarriors, despite their crude way of showing it, often were to have.

Captured mechs are better than scrap and parts. This is a military tradition that stretches back 2000 years real time, so 3000 years in MWO time.

I understand that online gaming does not lend itself to this because they cannot suffer severe personal loss or death by failure. Of course, most gamers would never have the courage to put themself into a mech to fight, and those that have fought for real (as I do play with some veterans who have seen combat for real) have a sense of honor and distaste for unnecessary bloodshed and destruction.

Again, not having a real penalty to being overly bloodthirsty and careless with life and equipment, MWO does a disservice to the lore that is the basis for the game.


I said that if there is no chance of fighting you may as well surrender. But if you are gonna die anyways, you may as well fight. If there is a glimmer of hope to complete your goal, then you better be prepared to complete it. Otherwise, you shouldn't have signed up to fight a war.

Also, there is no reason to treat a prisoner badly.

Everyone has their own opinion. Mine is that if you weren't ready to face the consequences of your actions (in this case, death from war) you shouldn't have signed up to fight. If you are a commander thinking about your men/the future of your army, it's different. And since we're talking big stompy robots here, there is more loss in a death than there is now (a rifle, some ammo, grenades maybe). Obviously the loss of life (your own life or otherwise) is awful and should never be taken lightly, but you have to stand up for what you originally said you'd fight for (your faction), unless something more pressing than victory comes up. (Once again, being a commander of lots of units places you in a different position. We can get into that if you want).

Since I want to clarify I am not a psychopath, I am not for the unnecessary loss of life or mistreatment of a prisoner. Just wanted to make absolutely sure you know that (people rarely read everything I say).

Edited by DavidHurricane, 02 August 2014 - 06:28 AM.


#19 loopala

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 09:01 PM

#9 just look up YLW. To some the funest mech made, to others a serious waste of money.

On the surrender bit in lore. By 3005 mech warfair was pretty much ritual in nature. Were being deposesed (spelling) was the worst thing that could happen to a mechwarrior. It was common for surrendering forces to be given back, with their mechs at the end of hostilities. One of the bigger outrages during the clan invasion was not just the whole bonds men bit but the taking away of the warriors mechs. Some of which had been prized family harlooms.

None of the mechwarrior games nor later books real ever took this into account.

#20 990Dreams

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:33 AM

View Postloopala, on 03 August 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

#9 just look up YLW. To some the funest mech made, to others a serious waste of money.

On the surrender bit in lore. By 3005 mech warfair was pretty much ritual in nature. Were being deposesed (spelling) was the worst thing that could happen to a mechwarrior. It was common for surrendering forces to be given back, with their mechs at the end of hostilities. One of the bigger outrages during the clan invasion was not just the whole bonds men bit but the taking away of the warriors mechs. Some of which had been prized family harlooms.

None of the mechwarrior games nor later books real ever took this into account.


I'm not saying to not be merciful to an enemy who surrendered. I'm saying that sometimes you're gonna be incapacitated and may never fight again. In that case, you may as well finish the fight you started.

And what I meant by #9 is that "One man's trash is another man's treasure". I said that in the notes. What some dislike, others love (kinda like what you said I guess, just wanted to clarify).





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