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Most Common "bad" Strategies Or Mistakes By Map


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#1 BlackhawkSC

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 12:50 AM

I play group and solo, and especially with solo (and sometimes even in groups of 3-4 mans), you see some pretty bad decisions being made on the battlefield. It's not that these strategies never work, but in solo or >3 groups in a team they more often than not fail due to lack of communication.

For entertainment purposes I'd like to list my opinion of the worst mistakes of every map.

Alpine: team that starts at the lower base split off in 2 or sometimes 3 directions. Usually one going K-line, the other two lances going towards the radio tower. The K-line lance gets picked apart by the team that usually has already grouped up on the H10 I10 hill.

Canyon: The lance that starts around D2 tries to go around E3 and E4 and wrap around whereas most the team goes to C3. This isn't as bad as some other "mistakes" but is easily exploitable by a fast team that can move to E4 very quickly.

Caustic: Endlessly rotating around the cauldron c-clockwise causing the slow mechs to get left behind and shot from the back

Crimson: The team that starts around C6 D6 moves to saddle D5 and does not push through, leaving them open to LRMs, arty and jump snipers. This happens less frequently than before when the map first came out, BUT IT STILL HAPPENS!

Forest Colony: 1. Going water, especially without ECM. 2. Uncoordinated tunnel rush when only half the team pushes through single file while the rest cower in fear

Frozen City: Uncoordinated tunnel rush. Fortunately does not happen much anymore

HPG: One of the 3 lances standing still close to one of the entrances and try to snipe allowing the enemy team to close in quickly in with 2 or 3 lances and takes them out.

River City: 1. Charlie lance starting at D2 pushing forward to B2 instead of turning right, gets slaughtered by the enemy team rotating c-clockwise. 2. Water push from C2 to D4 while the enemy is camped at lower city.

Terra: 1. Most of the team going center while 4 or 5 guys decides to be "smart" and flank. Or the opposite, most flank while you're the only 3 guys who pushes an entrance 2. A flanking move without every lance gathered up first, leaving either the left most or right most lance behind

Tourmaline: Lance that starts at H4 decides to move to E7 through G5 and F6. Other two lances follow, making a long stretching single file line of mechs that's extremely easy to pick apart. If the other two lances do not follow, then the first lance is almost guaranteed to die quickly on their own.

#2 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:00 AM

Here's a common mistake in every map in Conquest: Capping points while a fight is going on.

Seriously people. Caps rarely matter in conquest. Kills first, caps a very distant second. Cap when you've already reduced the enemy to scrap and don't feel like chasing down that last spider.

#3 Anassi

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:23 AM

Terra Therma: Pushing the cauldron half-assed. Either you do it and commit to it, or you stay away from the cauldron altogether. If you don't, all you're going to do is get your pushers killed. Don't stand at the entrance taking potshots! When your team decides to go in, you go in too.

#4 Kjudoon

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:37 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 26 August 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

Here's a common mistake in every map in Conquest: Capping points while a fight is going on.

Seriously people. Caps rarely matter in conquest. Kills first, caps a very distant second. Cap when you've already reduced the enemy to scrap and don't feel like chasing down that last spider.

Total reverse. Cap first, fight second, never contest a point, move on to the next one they hold, once you control 4 points kill everything you can. NEVER go to theta first or second unless it's on Crimson Strait.

View PostAnassi, on 26 August 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

Terra Therma: Pushing the cauldron half-assed. Either you do it and commit to it, or you stay away from the cauldron altogether. If you don't, all you're going to do is get your pushers killed. Don't stand at the entrance taking potshots! When your team decides to go in, you go in too.


Never go PUG Zapper. If you do and stand in the doorway, you will lose. It's almost a universal law.

Edited by Kjudoon, 26 August 2014 - 02:45 AM.


#5 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:08 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 26 August 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

Total reverse. Cap first, fight second, never contest a point, move on to the next one they hold, once you control 4 points kill everything you can. NEVER go to theta first or second unless it's on Crimson Strait.


Capping only works against an enemy that is too stupid or weak to crush you while you're spread out capping, in which case they'd be too weak or stupid to stand up in a straight fight anyway. If your enemy is even minimally competent, spreading out to cap is a loser's strategy. While your fast mechs are off back-capping, the slower ones are getting eaten up by the enemy team. You might have 4 points but you'll lose 6 mechs in the process if your enemy isn't ********.

By all means, take your natural point at the beginning if you're on one of the linear maps, but attempting a 4-cap while your enemy still has 12 mechs is just plain stupid. Kills always come first because dead mechs can't cap points. You don't have to worry about the enemy back-capping you if they're too busy dying. The number of times I've lost on Conquest because my team spread out far outnumbers my losses due to enemy capping. This goes for big maps and small maps.

Never go Gamma on Alpine, because then you will lose on the center points. Crimson Strait's Theta point is similarly out of the way, and should never be taken by anything bigger than a Cicada. And never more than one.

#6 Kjudoon

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:20 AM

You and I have had polar opposite experiences on what strategy works most. I mean really... 180 degrees of difference.

So as you can see ladies and gentlemen there isn't a best or worst strategy.

#7 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:52 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 26 August 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

You and I have had polar opposite experiences on what strategy works most. I mean really... 180 degrees of difference.

So as you can see ladies and gentlemen there isn't a best or worst strategy.

Capping 1st works well most of the time provided the fast meds/lights do it together then move back to the main force, be it fighting or capping another point.

It is when the lights/fast meds do not cap much of anything then there are a few heavy/assaults attempting to cap the nearby points at which time it goes down hill from there, unless the main force does well against lemmings. Or the other side's lights/fast meds/heavy/assaults have provided enough cushion in cap points that most of the team can be dead and still win.

Lot of the above will also depend on the maps and how things far at the mid-point of the game.

#8 Quickdraw Crobat

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:56 AM

On Terra Therma, the mistake I see all the dang time is teams moving up to the entrances of the volcano... and then stopping there.

Yesterday evening, I was in a group, providing fire support in a shiny new Kit Fox, and an ATLAS, of all things, moved into the entrance just far enough to get shot once, then backed off to the side and camped there like it expected to snipe. Meanwhile, the heavies and mediums (and one of our lights) who'd gone in first to secure a sort of 'boarding zone' had the entire enemy team fall on them. Needless to say, we got squished after that.

If you're going to take the volcano in Terra Therma, TAKE THE BLASTED VOLCANO. If not, STAY THE HECK OUTSIDE. Those doors are traps if you stop in them. It's amazing how many people will profess to hate the map because they never win and then do just that- go stand in an entrance to the volcano and wait to get smushed. It gets even worse if artillery and air strikes get into the mix.

It's sad, it happens constantly, and somehow, getting blown up and losing is just not discouraging people from doing it anyway.

#9 Bartholomew bartholomew

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:57 AM

In conquest at least two lights should cap always. And the rest deathball.

If your lights are fighting in the group, or you have an assault capping the far caps. You lose.

That and unless it is alpine or crimson, never push to fight at theta

#10 Kjudoon

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 04:03 AM

View PostBartholomew bartholomew, on 26 August 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

In conquest at least two lights should cap always. And the rest deathball.

If your lights are fighting in the group, or you have an assault capping the far caps. You lose.

That and unless it is alpine or crimson, never push to fight at theta

Since the current meme is to skirmish on conquest regardless of map or sound advice... I have to see assaults capping because the lights are busy tanking... and thanks to lag shield lately, they're better than the assaults.

#11 InspectorG

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:18 AM

View PostAnassi, on 26 August 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

Terra Therma: Pushing the cauldron half-assed. Either you do it and commit to it, or you stay away from the cauldron altogether. If you don't, all you're going to do is get your pushers killed. Don't stand at the entrance taking potshots! When your team decides to go in, you go in too.


Pugland, yes

With my friends, we avoid.

#12 Bigbacon

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:21 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 26 August 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

Here's a common mistake in every map in Conquest: Capping points while a fight is going on.

Seriously people. Caps rarely matter in conquest. Kills first, caps a very distant second. Cap when you've already reduced the enemy to scrap and don't feel like chasing down that last spider.


this is so untrue....

so many times the out come of the map came down to who capped the most early on. If teams can win by points later it is usually because the other team can't win by fighting off the mechs, the win either way BUT if that team had capped and held 3 or 4 points most of the round, they often win because the other team can't cap them in time.

I just wish people would start doing new things or using other parts of some maps...

sick of
rushing the hill
rushing the cauldron (either fully or the whole stand on the ramp BS)
the river city circle jerk (although there isn't much else to do here)

I look at alpine, it has a lot of map, with good cover and movement and everyone does the same crap. Had a round a week or so ago where my team (alomst) collectively said screw the hill. We set up in the L line (L7-L10) and waited. 3 of our teammates would have none of it and went to the hill and got slaughtered.

the other team finally comes down the mountain with like 6 minutes left. We still lost the match but the other 9 of us put up an awesome fight using the hills as cover and moving in and out to hit them on their flanks as the pushed aroud.

think final score was like 12 to 7...so if those other 3 hadn't ran off...it would have been even closer.

guess the overall proble in PUG land is both teams go to point A or B on each map and sit there.....

if I learned one thing over the challenge weekend wsa tht the team that stuck together and kept moving would win.

Edited by Bigbacon, 26 August 2014 - 07:27 AM.


#13 InspectorG

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:30 AM

View PostBartholomew bartholomew, on 26 August 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

In conquest at least two lights should cap always. And the rest deathball.

If your lights are fighting in the group, or you have an assault capping the far caps. You lose.

That and unless it is alpine or crimson, never push to fight at theta


Agreed.

Ive seen the 'brawl only' theory on conquest lose many times to last SECOND caps. 750-735 type wins.
2-3 lights should cap, never try to hold a cap till the last seconds of the match IF need be.
The brawler theory only works if they get a big numbers advantage early and REMEMBER to cap in the 1st place...yes ive seen teams not bother to cap only to lose while they were 'winning'. My elo is amazing, yes?

I think the key is to have 3 caps at all times. As the brawl over the center cap builds, lights go steal other caps.
Assaults/heavies should look for firing lanes between caps, as time gets tight, lights will run in straight lines between cap points.

#14 LiGhtningFF13

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:45 AM

The most common mistakes I always witness is the so called "split up" strategie or "rabbit run". All mechs in different directions!

#15 LuInRei

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:28 AM

There are two grave mistakes I see in PuG teams a lot.

First is, they just go to one of the usual converging points on the map and stop.
They plant themselves behind a hill and just wait for a miracle,
absolutely oblivious to the fact that they have just lost all the initiative and intelligence
they had on the enemy team.

Second is, they will try to cap all the points at once in conquest, go flanking in two different
directions leaving only one lance up front, or generally will have no possibility to focus fire,
because they are too far apart.

Edited by LuInRei, 26 August 2014 - 08:29 AM.


#16 AlphaToaster

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:57 AM

I think the biggest mistake made is common across all maps, and that's to play too conservative, too soon into the match and in doing so, getting teammates killed through lack of interaction.

Next time that you see a player in the back with full armor while the rest of his lance is dead, you'll know what I'm talking about. Damage dealt is great and everything. Everyone likes big numbers, but damage taken is just as important.

Those players who always end up alive at the end, alone, with nice shiny armor all the time. I'm not talking the occasional low incoming damage game, but I'm talking about game after game, there's always "That Guy". He's next to you on the push..... until someone shoots at him, then you see him at the end of the match by himself with his nice clean armor.

You'll recognize him when he's in an assault, behind your medium because "Your Medium is Faster". And you'll recognize him when you're in your assault, and he's behind you in his medium because "Your Assault has all the armor".

#17 ImperialCrusader

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:58 AM

An other big mistake, no one listening to instructions about movement, someone says go to X but there are always 2-3 guys not obeying and they die really fast

#18 Wyest

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 04:23 AM

View PostAnassi, on 26 August 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

Terra Therma: Pushing the cauldron half-assed. Either you do it and commit to it, or you stay away from the cauldron altogether. If you don't, all you're going to do is get your pushers killed. Don't stand at the entrance taking potshots! When your team decides to go in, you go in too.


Half-assed in this case also means this: WAIT FOR YOUR ASSAULTS.
I just had a PUG with a vocal heavy and assault deciding to push the cauldron and had half the team follow them... My lance had two (!) Direwolves. When these geniuses called for the push, the DWF's were still only 3/4 of the way to the cauldron, and completely unable to assist.

The geniuses died and then spent the rest of the match whining. One of the DWF's was spotted by the enemy, who tried to take him out. Between my jenner and my lance's medium (a trial Kintaro), we managed to pull half the enemy team into the crosshairs of our two DWF's to make up for the losses in the failed "push".

Push the cauldron if you like, but at least make sure your team is able to get there. DWF's are slow, but they make up for it if you help them. If we'd left them to carry the "push", we'd have lost, plain and simple.

Edited by Wyest, 28 August 2014 - 04:26 AM.


#19 Soulscour

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 02:38 AM

From a conquest perspective

In general
All small maps - focusing on caps. Cap victories are rare on small maps
All large maps - not watching caps. If you do not keep an eye on them you lose more times than not.

Specifically

Forest Colony - trying to cap theta at the beginning without a ecm light. You deserve to die if you tried this. It wasn't even worth the damage/death because its such a small map that caps are relatively unimportant.

River City - see forest colony

Frozen City - Capping theta at all. Anyone who goes theta is effectively separated from the rest of the map/team and unable to manuever to better positioning. If the entire team goes theta, they give up all other cap points and bottleneck whereever they decide to attempt to get back up out of that canyon.

Canyon Network - One side gets kappa, One side gets eps. You play them enough and you should know which ones I'm talking about. Try to challenge the others point and you'll find yourself outnumbered with your opponent able to get reinforcements faster than you can.

Alpine Peaks - skip gamma and focus the other points. If your opponent sent a lance to gamma you have an opportunity to outnumber them in the center. The only exception to this rule is for an experienced fast light with jumpjets that can consistently scout/cap or bug out successfully with minimal damage.

Crimson Strait - If you are the side that captures kappa do not send an entire lance or more to gamma, leaving half the team outnumbered to die at kappa. Send maybe 2 lights to get gamma at the most.

HPG Manifold - You either get the center or you don't. If you don't then don't walk in one at a time to die to focus fire. Why are you in such a rush to die? Capping the outer points for a victory is very viable on this map.

Terra Therma - This map is huge. I can not stress the importance of caps on this map. If your lights don't do their job and thier lights do thier job its over.

Caustic Valley - Trying to fill cap bars on this map is the biggest waste of time of all conquest maps.

#20 IraqiWalker

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 03:04 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 26 August 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:


Capping only works against an enemy that is too stupid or weak to crush you while you're spread out capping, in which case they'd be too weak or stupid to stand up in a straight fight anyway. If your enemy is even minimally competent, spreading out to cap is a loser's strategy. While your fast mechs are off back-capping, the slower ones are getting eaten up by the enemy team. You might have 4 points but you'll lose 6 mechs in the process if your enemy isn't ********.

By all means, take your natural point at the beginning if you're on one of the linear maps, but attempting a 4-cap while your enemy still has 12 mechs is just plain stupid. Kills always come first because dead mechs can't cap points. You don't have to worry about the enemy back-capping you if they're too busy dying. The number of times I've lost on Conquest because my team spread out far outnumbers my losses due to enemy capping. This goes for big maps and small maps.

Never go Gamma on Alpine, because then you will lose on the center points. Crimson Strait's Theta point is similarly out of the way, and should never be taken by anything bigger than a Cicada. And never more than one.

Here's why you're wrong:

Assault dominated team.

Capping works perfectly on conquest because the battlefield is mobile, the team that has the most mediums and lights will most likely win, since they can always outmaneuver their slower and bigger opponents. You go right ahead and fight that Direwolf. If it wasn't for that silly action of yours, that DWF will have had a zero damage game, and had no impact on the match, because the battlefield is all over the place, and it's too slow.

With mobile teams you want to secure an early advantage in points. Cap one or two more points than the enemy, then delay them with skirmishes and engagements. Causing them to waste time without recouping the point loss, and you are guaranteed a sure fire win rather quickly. That's if you care about winning, and not about making C-Bills. If you care about making a lot of C-Bills, why on earth are you on Conquest, go play the other two modes. Otherwise, play conquest, the way it should be played. Not Assault with more cap points.





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