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Clan Balance Update - Feedback


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#1 Kyle Polulak

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:37 AM

Hey everyone!

Please let us know your thoughts on the latest post from Russ

View PostRuss Bullock, on 03 September 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:



Hello MechWarrior’s,




In light of the upcoming clan weapon changes today...




This is a long awaited update on PGI's latest feelings and plans as it pertains to Clan balance. I expect it to be a very lengthy post so please bear with me as we work through the entire logic of our balance decisions and plans.




First off, let's all go back to the initial clan announcement and postings of how the technology would work. We were very clear from the very start that we were determined to not make the same mistake of past MechWarrior games in establishing the Clan mech’s as the "end game". In other words we weren't making a second game but that these Clan mech’s needed to fit and exist within MWO. We let players know how the engines, armor and Omni pods would work as well as a general description of how the weapons would play. This was going to create a unique feel to the clans but hopefully very balanced with IS mech’s.




Now that things have settled in we can see that, yes, we have fulfilled the requirements of how the technology will work as well as attaining that unique feel. However we can also see that the balance between IS and Clans is further apart than we had estimated. So the question has been, how do we plan to address this?




10v12




We have come to the conclusion that, for the foreseeable future, this is NOT a viable option for MWO, here are some of the reasons why:

  • UI redesign of the pre-game, scoreboard and end of round screen.
  • New rules for tie breakers surrounding the uneven team sizes
  • Significant re-factoring of the match maker to develop team sizes that don’t match.
  • 'Mech chassis tonnage balancing will no longer work.
  • Elo will no longer work with 10 vs 12 team calculations.
These elements alone (not including other edge cases) represent at least several additional weeks, if not months, into refactoring and testing time before they would be ready for deployment. That is time that will directly impact the development and delivery of CW modules 2+.






But perhaps more importantly than that, if we went down this path the overall message to the community is basically “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.




Balancing Plan




At this point we cannot make the statement that we have a picture perfect solution to IS vs Clan balance, but we do have a solid plan of attack. First off just knowing that we are going to exist within a 12v12 environment is one of the major decisions we were waiting to make, and now that it has been decided, we can chip away at the problem.




The first step is to release this latest round of Clan weapon changes this week. We HOPE this is the last Clan weapon nerfs we will have to implement. Not because we feel like this will be enough, (in fact we know that it will not) but in an effort to keep the unique feeling of the clan mech’s strong we will look to other areas to bridge the rest of the gap. Such as the following POTENTIAL changes:

  • Clan Heat and Movement penalties if a Right or Left torso is destroyed.
  • Small increase in IS Mech heat efficiency.
  • Complete IS mech Quirk pass to give more uniqueness and ability when used within their respective roles.
  • Increase in IS and Clan mech armor and internal structure if time to death decreases too much.
Our plan is to begin this plan of attack on the balance of the game this weekend with the implementation of the latest Clan weapon changes and then continue on with the other items systematically over the course of the next couple of months. With this command chair post shared with the public future updates on this subject should be possible much more frequently to discuss our progress.




#2 drunkblackstar

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:42 AM

Well... This is awful.

Sorry, I'd like to be more positive and understand your point if view, but this thoughts are just opposite of what I want from MWO.

#3 UBCslayer

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:43 AM

  • Complete IS mech Quirk pass to give more uniqueness and ability when used within their respective roles.
This is the one part of balancing that I hope is done the most efficiently. For example, the Awesome quirks were done well... the Cent, Hunch, and Dragon quirks didn't go nearly far enough.

I think most of the community would prefer that IS mechs be buffed rather than Clan mechs be nerfed.

Edited by UBCslayer, 05 September 2014 - 10:43 AM.


#4 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:44 AM

You know what?

I'm totally 100% good with all that. The decision to balance lasers with range decrease, damage decrease and heat increase instead of beam duration increases is one I can agree with 100%. The proposed changes to giving problems with side torso destruction on Clan XL mechs is great. Please, sweet baby jebus please, quirk up the IS mechs. The approximate approach to that I would suggest is this:

Posted Image

There's always more weapon balance changes you can make. These are a solid start. Imma thumbs up this one.

#5 Hillslam

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:45 AM

I like it. Open honest straight to the point. Also REMINDING everyone that their clan gear was not going to be more powerful only different and that you told everyone that more than a YEAR ago helps sooth the butthurt of those with selective hearing.

Some people need constant reminding.

PS: add a road cone cockpit item (shameless request)

#6 Kirtanus

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:47 AM

I'm OK with this plan for now...

#7 Domoneky

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:47 AM

Some of these ideas seem sensible and a lot of people would agree with them. Especially the Clan XL penalties. A lot of people wanted these. These along side the weapon changes actually seem somewhat good. Alright ForumWarriors....Begin the QQ that you do so well

#8 drunkblackstar

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:47 AM

I could agree with "Clan Heat and Movement penalties if a Right or Left torso is destroyed", but Clans are forced to use XL, they can't switch to standard.

#9 GumbyC2C

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:48 AM

....sigh...


I get that the Clan stuff needs some balance work. And honest communication about issues is important. But the news about 10v12 makes me sad. CW won't feel right if the clan units are organized just like the IS units.

#10 Kmieciu

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:48 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 05 September 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

“Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.

I must say that I fully agree with Russ on this topic. 10vs12 was a doomed idea from the start. Who would want to be on the IS side anyway?

#11 EvilCow

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:53 AM

I think that the changes to lasers are reasonable (waiting to test them). The plan sounds good, as usual the devil is in the details.

I still think that the only lingering error is the current placement of PPCs, those should be restored, as alternative you can just limit grouped weapons to 30pts of damage. The excess damage could be fired after 0.5secs or eliminated entirely.

#12 Bilbo

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:56 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 05 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:


I must say that I fully agree with Russ on this topic. 10vs12 was a doomed idea from the start. Who would want to be on the IS side anyway?

I would but I'm crazy. I like the ideas though.

#13 WarHippy

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:56 AM

As long as you guys don't drag your feat with making adjustments I can probably live with what you have posted, but you guys tend to over nerf things pretty hard leaving them that way for extended periods of time. This makes for very chaotic and less than enjoyable gameplay. I am also very skeptical of the heat and movement penalties on Clan mechs when they have no choice in engine size or type. They would need to be very small penalties for this to not be a complete disaster.

#14 CyclonerM

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:57 AM

*facepalm*

To be honest, i would wait for CW if that meant having finally 10vs12 for CW.

I am fine with penalties for losing a side (though the movement penalties should NOT be too great) but then where are engine critical hits? Those should be in for both Clan and IS 'Mechs. It feels wrong that only the Clan 'Mechs suffer from engine damage.

I understand the technical issues with 10vs12, but this is exactly the OPPOSITE of what i want to see in MWO, just like the first guy said.

Edited by CyclonerM, 05 September 2014 - 10:58 AM.


#15 MoonUnitBeta

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:57 AM

Great post. Looking foward to seeing the changes. From my point of view Clans were only a touch more powerful than IS, so I only hope that you didn't go overboard with the nerfs.

I hope no one was confused about clans being OP. As you mentioned you made clear announcements of your intentions. I think they turned out pretty good. There was quite a lot of surprise when they were released how balanced (not perfectly of course) they were, yet still embraced a whole new feel of mech.

Thanks for the insight to the balance plan! Great communication. 10vs12 was never the answer anyways. It would make sense to have star vs lance, but other than that it shouldn't be used as a balancing mechanic. Maybe it'll be something to concider down the road, but I agree time could be spent more wisely developing the rest of the game. - THANK YOU.


PATCH NOTES:
THANK YOU, for the flashing taskbar! (super cool)

Clan weapon changes seem reasonable. I like what was done with the Clan LL. less heat penalty and shorter beam duration (2 seconds was agony) And the heat increase and range reduction is understandable.

LRM cooldowns, good! They always seemed a bit quick!

Thanks for the CLan S-SRM buff.

Looking forward to seeing how these playout. they're not as drastic as I thought they would be and actually very reasonable. If it's not the last time they'll be balanced, it's certainly close.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 05 September 2014 - 11:09 AM.


#16 Nik Reaper

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:58 AM

Just give IS mechs Light engines and the clans will need a buff....

#17 Kmieciu

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 11:01 AM

View PostBilbo, on 05 September 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I would but I'm crazy. I like the ideas though.

I meant: who would want to be on the side that outnumbers the enemy? Not much glory in zerg-rushing using superior numbers. Not enough kills to share. Less salvage to split.

#18 Bilbo

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 11:05 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 05 September 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:


I meant: who would want to be on the side that outnumbers the enemy? Not much glory in zerg-rushing using superior numbers. Not enough kills to share. Less salvage to split.

You actually think 10v12 would cause people to maneuver? I don't.

#19 NuclearPanda

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 11:06 AM

Chimed in to say that I'm thoroughly disappointed and feel it's quite lazy to write off 10v12 completely. I would understand why it would NOT be an option at this time, but to write it off so blatantly like you did within the post makes me a sad panda.

This game is moving further and further away from being an actual Mechwarrior title into being Generic Robot Shooter XXVIV.

#20 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 11:07 AM

Okay, just...whatever.

Actually, I do have a question. Two, actually.

Why ask us to test these changes at all if you were going to inflict them as is anyway?

What data do you have that says these changes are going to mean things are 'balanced' when you start having people play mechs appropriate to their faction when community warfare hits?

Or are you even still planning to have players in some way or form restricted at all?

Okay so, three questions.

Edited by Kael 17, 05 September 2014 - 11:13 AM.






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