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Challenges Bring Out The Worst In Players...

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#41 Bigbacon

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 08:41 AM

honestly not seeing too much difference in group vs pug, even with the challenge going on. I'm not seeing at ********** and so far the people in the voice chats are nice. I don't see any name calling or anything thing like that.

I think people are upset because you are seeing things you normally odn't see being used and that breaks them from their norm.

the thing is, lights are doing what they are sort of supposed to do, scout, target stuff, and let people know what is going on. That is what I've been doing, it is what I normally do regardless of challenge or not.

Seeing ECM folks actually covering thier big guys or using it to do the above and not off by themselves doing nothing to help. Seeing lots of people prioritize targets. I'm learning that more during this by trying to narc their ECM guys before others and/or countering ECM at cost to damage to myself.

Overall, this has been pretty good. worst part is often just trying to get 4 people together.

round wise, it is the same as pug land, either a stomp in one direction or a good, well faught, close round.

Edited by Bigbacon, 08 September 2014 - 08:47 AM.


#42 DaZur

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 08:46 AM

IMHO one of greatest contributors to the thuggary tactics being so viable is that a good portion of lance participants were four loosely associated solo players who grouped up in order to just participate in the event...

A lance of strangers is still a PUG-level entry and their ability to functionally coordinate at the same level as the higher-level coordinated team lances has a lot to be desired...

In context... I'd be hard pressed to believe the thug tactics that worked in this open environment would have worked in a pure team / Clan environment.

Edited by DaZur, 08 September 2014 - 08:47 AM.


#43 Ahja

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 10:53 AM

PVP with a competitive objectives is always like this. It seems post you dont spend much time in open world PVP.

#44 Aresye

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 11:10 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 08 September 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

Are you seriously saying that cw will be fun with THIS (no more than tag/narc/lurm) teamwork?


I never said that. I said, "CW is geared to be around actual teams and factions fighting it out in coordinated gameplay."

Perhaps I shouldn't have used narc and lrms as an example. My point was to say that CW is going to revolve around coordinated play, and will likely be very competitive.

Essentially I'm just wondering what the OP wants with CW, when it's made very clear he has a particular distaste for teams that actually work together.

View PostDaZur, on 08 September 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Really?... You qualifying the zerg rush and the LRM flood as "teamwork / tactics"?

On the occasion I play with the RMA or the LAW, they actually execute proper flanks, kill boxes and coordinated focus fire... That kind of stuff is finesse-level tactics.


Finesse-level tactics and other fancy "hollywood style" battlefield strategies are kind of like LRMs. They'll work against average and below average teams, but are absolutely laughable in the higher tiers of competitive play, where aggression, individual skill, and intuition reign supreme.

Edited by Aresye, 08 September 2014 - 11:24 AM.


#45 Remarius

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 11:40 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 08 September 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

In this challenge I have also ran out of:
AMS ammo...
And LRM ammo...
And AC20 ammo.

In fact in 3 years of play I have never ran out of ammo till now! :huh:


Luckily my cLPL with extended range and tag couldn't run out. ;)

#46 Verdic Mckenna

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 11:51 AM

I don't know if you read the same books I did - but yeah. This is how real warfare happens. We will use TAG - we will use NARC - and we will use ECM. We will find cheap ways to disable your mech and stomp on your cockpit with glee while we collect our paycheck and/or defend the honor of the Clans and/or further the politics of the Inner Sphere. It's a cold hard galaxy out there. There isn't room for weakness, and honor doesn't mean I have to fight fair. We're not in a Circle of Equals, and this isn't your sibko. Maybe now more of you see that coordinated loadouts are going to be the "end game". If you can't hack it, get a refund for that Clan Collection. Welcome to the 31st Century "wet nose".

(You played in 1995 if you get those references.)

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 08 September 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

Are you seriously saying that cw will be fun with THIS (no more than tag/narc/lurm) teamwork?

Edit: if you really think so, please remove "LOREmaster" :)


#47 STEF_

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 12:07 PM

View PostAresye, on 08 September 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

My point was to say that CW is going to revolve around coordinated play, and will likely be very competitive.

Essentially I'm just wondering what the OP wants with CW, when it's made very clear he has a particular distaste for teams that actually work together.


Finesse-level tactics and other fancy "hollywood style" battlefield strategies are kind of like LRMs. They'll work against average and below average teams, but are absolutely laughable in the higher tiers of competitive play, where aggression, individual skill, and intuition reign supreme.


Then we agree.

Edit: I really would like indirect fire as TT. Now, it is too way easy to lurm.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 08 September 2014 - 12:15 PM.


#48 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 12:11 PM

View PostDaZur, on 07 September 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

Interesting social experiment these challenges are... Nothing like a few free buables to be handed out by PGI to magnify our human nature to be selfish douches. :rolleyes:

What makes it truly interesting is the fact that these challenges are a glancing look into gaping maw of an abyss called "community warefare".

I dunno... maybe I've been rendered hypersensitive by this challenge but if this is a microcosm of CW, I'm of the mind to tell PGI they are welcome to keep it.

At least in casual PUG games and friendly team play, there is a sense of decorum and rudimentary application of basic battlefield tactics... All I saw tonight was blob bum-rush thuggary and Narc-LRM spam of the likes I've never seen...

Not even going to mention the absolute rude / ruthless commentary shared within the match.

wow... :blink:

And from what I saw, this one was mild compared to the last.

I do think they need to increase the "Community" rewards aspect. Wins should be a huge point bonus, not just 4. make it 8-10 Then one has more impetus to try to win, as actually winning the match will be the clear cut quickest way making the challenge, instead of gaming assists and spotting and NARC. I had losing matched I scored over 30-40 challenge pts, simply because I run a NARC Jenner.

Mind you I tried to NARC Priority targets, and tell the team when it was done, because I want to WIN, but whether the team did their job, and worked together or not, I still scored like a bandit.

#49 STEF_

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 12:28 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 September 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

And from what I saw, this one was mild compared to the last.

I do think they need to increase the "Community" rewards aspect. Wins should be a huge point bonus, not just 4. make it 8-10 Then one has more impetus to try to win, as actually winning the match will be the clear cut quickest way making the challenge, instead of gaming assists and spotting and NARC. I had losing matched I scored over 30-40 challenge pts, simply because I run a NARC Jenner.

Mind you I tried to NARC Priority targets, and tell the team when it was done, because I want to WIN, but whether the team did their job, and worked together or not, I still scored like a bandit.

As DaZur said, main problem here is that PGI wanted to over-reward the narc/tag/lurm combination.
And, let's remind us the "indirect fire lrm" problem.
I love coordinated teams, communication, team focus fire on target.
Sadly all I saw, yesterday, was a "rainy match" after "rainy match"; a little boring, I think.

Sure, CW will be different I hope.

#50 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 08 September 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

As DaZur said, main problem here is that PGI wanted to over-reward the narc/tag/lurm combination.
And, let's remind us the "indirect fire lrm" problem.
I love coordinated teams, communication, team focus fire on target.
Sadly all I saw, yesterday, was a "rainy match" after "rainy match"; a little boring, I think.

Sure, CW will be different I hope.

One thing I hope gets factored, if they allow you to choose maps in CW, but even without, is environmental conditions that affect weapons. Too heavy of winds and rain, and Arty and Air would be out of the question, and I think one could make arguments for LRMs being less effective, etc.

The catch 22, is that for teamwork among non affiliated players to be achieved, you need to have weapons and rewards that work based on that teamwork. Otherwise you end up with a bunch of solo heros. It's not the easiest thing to balance, especially when you consider, that in smaller groups, many maps, or more balanced builds, LRMs are from from OP.

It's mostly en masse, with coordination on certain maps, then they become the boogey man.

#51 Gyrok

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 02:11 PM

I will say this with utmost certainty...

I bet I made 5000 XP over the weekend from shooting down UAVs...

#52 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 02:16 PM

View PostGyrok, on 08 September 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

I will say this with utmost certainty...

I bet I made 5000 XP over the weekend from shooting down UAVs...

and another 50,000 xp from narcing, spotting and UAV detection, lol.

#53 Aresye

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 02:39 PM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 08 September 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

As DaZur said, main problem here is that PGI wanted to over-reward the narc/tag/lurm combination.
And, let's remind us the "indirect fire lrm" problem.
I love coordinated teams, communication, team focus fire on target.
Sadly all I saw, yesterday, was a "rainy match" after "rainy match"; a little boring, I think.

Sure, CW will be different I hope.


I doubt CW will see anywhere near this type of LRM spam, which is unique to this challenge in particular because of the scoring system. Besides, if anything I actually found that this challenge was easier solely because almost every group was running LRMs. If I got Caustic, oh well, ggclose, but for pretty much every other map (including Alpine), the prevalence of LRMs was more beneficial to my non-LRM, direct fire play style. Less enemies w/ direct fire weapons + ECM + radar dep module = more damage and assists for me.

The reason I got on OP's case in the first place was more for his reference to the "bum-rush" tactics. Massive LRM spam is unique to this challenge, but the coordinated push has always been a staple of the group queue, even more so since they nerfed jump jets and PPCs. The new "meta" tactic I'm seeing in most of the competitive teams is fast moving brawlers with very high DPS boats consisting of SRMs, ACs, and regular/pulse lasers. Very hard tactic to counter, because it requires the person in charge (and the rest of the group for that matter) to think and react very fast, and it's near impossible to prioritize targets for focus fire.

The latter (assuming no more drastic weapon balance changes) will likely be VERY common for drops in Community Warfare, hence my, "Deal with it," type attitude before.

Hopefully that fully clears up my original post.

#54 STEF_

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 02:50 PM

View PostAresye, on 08 September 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:


I doubt CW will see anywhere near this type of LRM spam, which is unique to this challenge in particular because of the scoring system. Besides, if anything I actually found that this challenge was easier solely because almost every group was running LRMs. If I got Caustic, oh well, ggclose, but for pretty much every other map (including Alpine), the prevalence of LRMs was more beneficial to my non-LRM, direct fire play style. Less enemies w/ direct fire weapons + ECM + radar dep module = more damage and assists for me.

The reason I got on OP's case in the first place was more for his reference to the "bum-rush" tactics. Massive LRM spam is unique to this challenge, but the coordinated push has always been a staple of the group queue, even more so since they nerfed jump jets and PPCs. The new "meta" tactic I'm seeing in most of the competitive teams is fast moving brawlers with very high DPS boats consisting of SRMs, ACs, and regular/pulse lasers. Very hard tactic to counter, because it requires the person in charge (and the rest of the group for that matter) to think and react very fast, and it's near impossible to prioritize targets for focus fire.

The latter (assuming no more drastic weapon balance changes) will likely be VERY common for drops in Community Warfare, hence my, "Deal with it," type attitude before.

Hopefully that fully clears up my original post.

Yes, it did (and yours previous as well).
We both like group queue for the same reasons.
And we both agree about massive lrm use in this challenge.
So, friends :)

#55 VanillaG

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 03:01 PM

My suspicion is that the reason that that the TAG, NARC, and Spot points were high is because PGI wanted to test the code to make sure that it worked. Those types were just added and if there was a bug with accumulating anyone one of those, having a high value makes it easier to spot. The other benefit is that having those high values prodded the players to play in a way to get those points. This challenge was just a way to test those changes, as have almost all of the challenges and tournaments have been.

If you read between the lines a little, you can start to see some of the underpinnings for some of the CW stuff coming down the pipe. You can use this same challenge system for contracts and gaining loyalty points. Doing this sort of testing now gives me confidence that when those systems are rolled out they will actually work. The only that should need to be tweaked are the actual rewards for those actions.

#56 DaZur

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 08:50 PM

View PostAresye, on 08 September 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

The reason I got on OP's case in the first place was more for his reference to the "bum-rush" tactics. Massive LRM spam is unique to this challenge, but the coordinated push has always been a staple of the group queue, even more so since they nerfed jump jets and PPCs. The new "meta" tactic I'm seeing in most of the competitive teams is fast moving brawlers with very high DPS boats consisting of SRMs, ACs, and regular/pulse lasers. Very hard tactic to counter, because it requires the person in charge (and the rest of the group for that matter) to think and react very fast, and it's near impossible to prioritize targets for focus fire.

The latter (assuming no more drastic weapon balance changes) will likely be VERY common for drops in Community Warfare, hence my, "Deal with it," type attitude before.

Hopefully that fully clears up my original post.

Your painting some broad assumptions inferred from my post... ;)

You know as well as I do a true "push tactic" involves more intent than to drive the zerg-herd into an opposing force hoping to have the last man standing... What I experienced was not even that tactically involved. It largely amounted to a blob pushing hard and fast with no tactical intent other than to win a thug-level battle of attrition. And with that I still counter it was only successful because a large contingency of the challenge were effectively PUG players required to lance up to participate.

In fairness, I have little interest in high-level competitive play, ie... "e-sport'esk" comp. play for the very logic your predicating... i.e, win at any cost damn the melodramatic role-playing aspect of the BT universe and the MMO potential.

There's more people who identify with my vision of MW:O than I think you're giving credit to...

#57 Aresye

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 09:07 PM

View PostDaZur, on 08 September 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Your painting some broad assumptions inferred from my post... ;)

You know as well as I do a true "push tactic" involves more intent than to drive the zerg-herd into an opposing force hoping to have the last man standing... What I experienced was not even that tactically involved. It largely amounted to a blob pushing hard and fast with no tactical intent other than to win a thug-level battle of attrition. And with that I still counter it was only successful because a large contingency of the challenge were effectively PUG players required to lance up to participate.

In fairness, I have little interest in high-level competitive play, ie... "e-sport'esk" comp. play for the very logic your predicating... i.e, win at any cost damn the melodramatic role-playing aspect of the BT universe and the MMO potential.

There's more people who identify with my vision of MW:O than I think you're giving credit to...


Well I stand corrected on my assumptions then. I enjoy the role-playing aspects (wish there were more) in addition to the competitive aspects. I took your post as sounding like it was an attack on the overall group queue and the units that play in there (which would include mine), and didn't think you were being as literal as you actually were with your definition of thug pushes :P

#58 DaZur

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 09:17 PM

View PostAresye, on 08 September 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:


Well I stand corrected on my assumptions then. I enjoy the role-playing aspects (wish there were more) in addition to the competitive aspects. I took your post as sounding like it was an attack on the overall group queue and the units that play in there (which would include mine), and didn't think you were being as literal as you actually were with your definition of thug pushes :P

I've been accused of far worse things than being literal... ;) :P

#59 FREDtheDEAD

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 10:08 PM

View PostCavendish, on 07 September 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:


Totaly my own opinion based on my experience of playing in a group for a long time:

I think that this comes from that most people playing in groups simply do not use LRMs. They are normaly easy to counter for a coordinated team by ECM/AMS umbrellas. While AMS is a bit rare in group play, the ECM is a fundamental element and as we have seen this weekend it is an effective counter to the LRMs.

This weekend on the other hand has made most people put on the LRM/NARC boots due to how points are calculated, and that is why you see a huge frigging mass of missiles fly overhead blotting out the sun. Even with 3-4 ECM per team, there has (for once) been an abundant use of NARC to knock out the enemy ECM mechs which has been intresting (you do not regularly see NARC in group play either).

All in all, no LRMs are usualy not a problem in group queue, this challange sorta forced a change to this and things will be back to normal when its over.

As a side note, the few times I played my regular Kit Fox this weekend I was suprised that not even 6-8.000 AMS ammo was enough to last in some of the matches, and I think the 3 AMS systems on my mech need to be replaced due to wear and tear lol.
Whereas in a PUG match you're lucky to get one ECM (that doesn't run away from the main group and die early) and everyone has an AMS and plenty of ammo due to the rock-paper-scissors nature of PUGing. Private and public matches have a whole different game balance.

#60 Eatit

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 06:23 AM

Hey Matt,

I hope you read this and realize that no matter how hard you try, you can't please everyone. There will always be people who complain. This post is from 5 years ago and it reads as if it were from today.

I didn't enjoy playing in Trial mechs, so I didn't. Others did and many appreciated the rewards they were given for doing so.

Keep up the good work and don't let the haters get you down. Haters gonna Hate.





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