543 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

White Bear 84, on 09 September 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Have I been under a rock or something? A bunch of players exiled into deep space? The forums do feel a bit quieter...

First rule of Moderation Club: There is no Moderation Club. (CoC man, can't discuss moderation. it's a little silly, IMO, but it's there)

[mongo2006]

Nathan Foxbane, on 08 September 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Paul is praising a post about CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, there is no cheerleading in that. It is a way to tell someone what they are or an individual believes they are doing wrong, why it is or that individual believes it is wrong, and to share any fixes or alternatives the individual thinks up.

Also, please do not discuss moderation here, Bishop went through the trouble to edit his original post to keep this thread open, the least we can do is respect that.

The problem here is the definition of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM PGI's definition seems to be:

Any constructive criticism that can be ignored or dismissed or in general unanswered constitutes constructive criticism.

BUT

Any post that criticizes the actions taken without prior discussion with the community that offers alternatives to those actions no-longer constitute constructive criticism but is perceived as an attack.

ACTION TAKEN

Post are deleted, or moved, and if you say something about it you're told NOT TO DISCUSS MODERATION HERE.. But no place is provided to discuss it. lol wtf..


I mean I have no problem with balance, I don't think there is a way to balance clan mechs from a lore perspective the way PGI has built this game, so lore advocates might as well give up. PGI is not going to put the time or money into merging lore dynamics. But I do believe the base lore builds should remain functional because that's what we bought when clan mechs where offered for sale. Now the mechs can only carry 1/2 the weapon loads without overheating 5-10 times a match in skilled hands.


MY PROBLEM


I have 2 MBA's and working on a law degree, I am trained to look at the smallest print first. I was well aware that the clan mechs where going to be subject to nerfs by PGI and ridiculed by those that didn't own them. Not knowing PGI's history I bought the full load anyway assuming they would remain viable at-least.

What I was not prepared for and will not accept is the nerfs are so bad that basic builds are broken and more nerfs are on the way. There is just something wrong with this and there is no dialog to be had. paired with the most diligent STFU campaign I have ever seen from any game developer....

Change the name to SIUO, SUCK IT UP ONLINE, this is no longer Mechwarrior

[BLOOD WOLF]

mongo2006, on 09 September 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

ACTION TAKEN

Post are deleted, or moved, and if you say something about it you're told NOT TO DISCUSS MODERATION HERE.. But no place is provided to discuss it. lol wtf..






What I was not prepared for and will not accept is the nerfs are so bad that basic builds are broken and more nerfs are on the way.

2 things

number 1, there is no place to discuss moderation because unless your a moderator, you need to do you're job and that is the bottom line.
2. I never touched my T-wolf prime build except for taking out the med pulse and added a machine gun because of preference. I can still get 700+ damage with it.

3. Nice credentials but I expected more from you

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 09 September 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 08 September 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Paul is praising a post about CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, there is no cheerleading in that. It is a way to tell someone what they are or an individual believes they are doing wrong, why it is or that individual believes it is wrong, and to share any fixes or alternatives the individual thinks up.

Also, please do not discuss moderation here, Bishop went through the trouble to edit his original post to keep this thread open, the least we can do is respect that.

thanks for noticing that man.

[PublicWifi]

Welcome to the wonderful world of MMO's in general; News flash: Most devs don't listen to the community. It's a shocker, I know.

Need I mention Starwars Galaxies and the absolute destruction of a community based upon dev "insight" ?

How about now, consider Magic the Gathering Online. The new client has absolutely destroyed the casual player base and has resulted in masses selling their collections worth $2,000-10,000. Wizards of the Coast encouraged feedback. They received feedback from thousands of players. Now? They've hired another 3rd party team in order to assess the current client and situation. Why? Because they're losing huge amounts of money. The masquerade is most evident. The illusion has been revealed. Cash is king.

Game developers will wave their hands and whisper sweet words of encouragement. They will make it seem as though your input matters and that your comments are appreciated. In the end, MWO is just like the rest. There is a graveyard filled with hundreds of MMORPG's or similar. Do you see it? Thousands of forum posts were made by subscribers and investors / customers alike. Did the devs take time to consider what the customer wanted? No.

The devs have 2 options:
1) LISTEN to the paying customers
2) Feign ignorance.
I

[shintakie]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

wouldn't that involve a ground up redesign though?

It depends what they switch to. If they switched to the new CryEngine they'd be able to import it, though from what I hear the new CryEngine (and CryEngine3) has really ****** import tools.

If they switched to UE4, technically speakin its piss easy to import models into UE4, like literally drag and drop easy. However I'm fairly certain that'd cause legal problems since they used CryEngine to create the models originally which would probably be covered under proprietary law stuff.

[mongo2006]

BLOOD WOLF, on 09 September 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

2 things

number 1, there is no place to discuss moderation because unless your a moderator, you need to do you're job and that is the bottom line.
2. I never touched my T-wolf prime build except for taking out the med pulse and added a machine gun because of preference. I can still get 700+ damage with it.

3. Nice credentials but I expected more from you

1. In some cases the moderation is unjust and there is no recourse
2. If you have not as you say touched your T-Wolf it's clear you don't have an optimized build, you getting 700 damage means nothing to me because if your team can't hold a line or if you can't stay alive long enough.. get the point? So tell me what your alpha is and heat rating, I can do my own math.. thank you..
3. You may see my MBA's as achievements, my mother see's me as a dropout I'm not a doctor, it's all a matter of perspective.. You don't know me so expect nothing, expectation limits the mind and possibility.

[MischiefSC]

One problem is that people confuse 'constructive criticism' with 'screaming profanity-laced rant full of direct personal insults'. 'I was just expressing my opinion'. If your opinion is a screaming tantrum.... well, honestly? It doesn't have a lot of value. It doesn't need listened to.

The most recent example would be the two consecutive nerfs to CERLLs. The first one with the 2 second burn time got roasted - then it got rolled back to 1.6 and the damage/range reductions put in. That was pretty much exactly what everyone who was willing to admit that clan weapons needed nerfs wanted.

Notice the crickets around that change. We asked for something, we shared a lot of very reasonable opinions (if you sorted them from all the garbage) and it got applied.

Having an opinion is completely separate from having an opinion worth listening to. Expressing your opinion is completely separate from expressing an opinion constructively or even usefully.

A lot of people like and play MW:O, warts and all. This, more than anything else, seems to really upset some people. The idea that PGI in their current project of MW:O or potentially in the new project of Transverse can and are making something some people want to play seems to really upset some people in some really strange, very controlling ways.

It's one thing to say you don't like something. It's another to say 'I don't like this and I need to make sure nobody else does either'.

I'm 100% on board with better moderation on these forums. I like constructive debates - I get in a lot of them here. The biggest problem with trying to have a constructive debate is people spewing garbage like their barely coherent opinion has the same weight and value as someone elses well reasoned point/counter-point matched with well considered alternatives or recommendations.

They're not the same thing. This 'everyone deserves an award' approach to dealing with forum feedback is not healthy in the long term. If you don't like something, speak up. If you can't speak up intelligently or in a manner befitting polite conversation or social discourse... at best, expect to get ignored. At worst, expect to get removed from the debate. We do this in person, we do this in every civilized society in the world. It's the process by which we have useful conversations on stuff. Why doing so is considered 'heavy handed' I've never agreed with.

If you have issues with moderation you can send a report to support. You can also send a twitter to Niko or Russ or whoever. Complaining on the forums about moderation has absolutely no possible potential value in fixing unjust moderation. Since the moderators are, as any respectable business, not going to make private interactions with other customers public, they can't really discuss it, can they?

Every co-worker you've ever had who got fired probably said it was totally unfair or had some excuse. If you ever spend time working in HR you know that they missed work, lied, falsified documentation, violated employment conditions - generally repeatedly. Then they got coached about it, warned and set on a development path - where upon they did it again.

Forum moderation and player banning tends to be the same thing. If a topic is deemed 'inappropriate' and you still post on it and it gets moderated.... what did you expect? Send a support ticket or a private message to an admin. The only purpose to rants on the forums about such things is to try and stir up (often misplaced of fallacious) outrage among the forum public. That has no use or value in getting anything actually fixed, it's just a means to garner attention or for control freaks to feel like they're making progress trying to trick/blackmail/compel other people to do or feel how they want.

Anyway. Sorry for the segue but indirectly the topic comes up and it's not just arbitrary.

As to nerfs to the Clans.... we knew, from the beginning, the goal was 12 v 12 balancing for IS and Clans since 10 v 12 balancing would destroy CW and inevitably turn the game into vet players in Clans waiting for their turn to stomp newbie zerglings along with a tiny handful of masochists.

[El Bandito]

Green Mamba, on 09 September 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

I'll translate .....my LRMS aren't Uber enough

Sorry, can't hear you over the amount of likes I got.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 09 September 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

ftfy

[Kjudoon]

Read or Read Not... there is no skim.

Well said man, and brace for impact.

[mongo2006]

MischiefSC, on 09 September 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

One problem is that people confuse 'constructive criticism' with 'screaming profanity-laced rant full of direct personal insults'. 'I was just expressing my opinion'. If your opinion is a screaming tantrum.... well, honestly? It doesn't have a lot of value. It doesn't need listened to.

Most of what you said was repetitive in saying "If I (you) don't like the way you're communicating, then you don't deserve to be heard and has no value."

I have problems with that train of thought, I have learned that how someone communicates has no value and all content in communication needs to be heard, considered and understood in the context that it was given.

Example: Yeh you dumb ass mufuga don't go in that house it has a bomb in it!!! ( you would ignore this guy.. BOOM! )

VS:

Sir please don't do in that building, there is a bomb threat and we are concerned with your safety ( you would invite him to your house for dinner, he saved your life. He can date your sister with your blessings.

The fact is, they said the same thing and did the same thing if you where willing to listen despite the delivery.

The problem with some of the players (including me) is the passion that we have for the game Mechwarrior, we get excited when people clearly destroy the game for any reason. Those that think we're just losing our minds, being socially destructive, rude, can't relate to the people who have played this game for 20 years + and our lack of (music playing.. you know the song) DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY (song)

Listening to the players, ALL PLAYERS, is the only way any game survives bro.

[carl kerensky]

Seth Davion, on 09 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

I do not post often but I like to make a point when I do, MWO or Mech Warrior Online is based on an almost 30 year Sci-Fi history and has attracted people like me and as such have become immersed in it, I myself for over 15 years.
I love PVP and the PVP experience in this game means ton for ton a skilled pilot will kill an unskilled one regardless of weapons (no matter how hard they try to stop this). You cannot nerf skill unless you cut of my hands.
That is why I play, to be within the Mechs that I only saw in drawings and to relish the PVP experience and the universe it is my R&R.
The game to the Developers however does not mean what it means to me and as I come to realise the truth that it is a job to them, a money maker and nothing more.
Do not believe me?
Then ask your self how often do they play?
Are they any good when they do?
The answer is not much and no they are not because they do not play the game and have very little love for it and thus no experience in the environment.
MWO is dead or at least dying, evidence = they are working on a new IP and the publisher has left and most importantly of all the population of Mech warrior fans from the days of TT no longer play(old guard).
This is very important because we bank role this game for the long term. I would estimate that I have spent at least £1800 on this game that is $2902.27 USD. We kept Battletech alive for almost 30yrs how many MWO plays care that much even about MWO?
Do not think to judge me I believe in paying for things I love and I work hard for the money I make I have been playing since the beginning so this amount constitutes what I would have paid for a subscription.
Now comes the point, I find the above post that considers the forums cancerous, I would agree there are a lot of unskilled pilots that are frustrated and they call for a Call of Duty experience. They are young and dumb they want it fast and they want it easy so they can throw it away or have the delusion they have skill. The true cancer is the fact that PGI listen to them and not to the people that actually fund all of your enjoyment. This is the real truth that points to the real likelihood that this game will die and spend another decade in a draw. I do not want to wait another 10 years.
Stop complaining about balance if there is an OP weapon adapt use it against other players, stop taking the easy way out.
LEARN TO PLAY THE DAM GAME BEFORE GIVING UP AND ASKING RUSS TO NERF EVERY SKILLED WEAPON IN THIS GAME. AND MAYBE THEY WILL WORK ON OTHER THINGS RATHER THAN WORRY ABOUT FARE WEATHER PLAYERS THAT ONLY PLAY WHEN IT IS EASY YET MAKE UP 90% OF THE MWO POPUALTION.

Great post. Yes PGI stop catering to players that don't really care about the heart of Mechwarrior / battle tech and are only looking for a flash in the pan experience. Get back to the roots and develop for the loyal fan base you initially were creating for. They will carry this game to great success. No doubts there. In the long run those flash in the pan players will be permanently hooked on MWO because you didn't compromise and you made the best and most immersive gameplay that respected the battle tech property. Stop being like other games and let MWO have it's identity back.

[Odins Fist]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Is It The End For Mechwarrior: Online

I don't think so... As long as they are making decent money from it.

[MischiefSC]

mongo2006, on 09 September 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Most of what you said was repetitive in saying "If I (you) don't like the way you're communicating, then you don't deserve to be heard and has no value."

I have problems with that train of thought, I have learned that how someone communicates has no value and all content in communication needs to be heard, considered and understood in the context that it was given.

Example: Yeh you dumb ass mufuga don't go in that house it has a bomb in it!!! ( you would ignore this guy.. BOOM! )

VS:

Sir please don't do in that building, there is a bomb threat and we are concerned with your safety ( you would invite him to your house for dinner, he saved your life. He can date your sister with your blessings.

The fact is, they said the same thing and did the same thing if you where willing to listen despite the delivery.

The problem with some of the players (including me) is the passion that we have for the game Mechwarrior, we get excited when people clearly destroy the game for any reason. Those that think we're just losing our minds, being socially destructive, rude, can't relate to the people who have played this game for 20 years + and our lack of (music playing.. you know the song) DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY (song)

Listening to the players, ALL PLAYERS, is the only way any game survives bro.

Attempting to equate warning someone there is a bomb in a house with trying to explain that a balance decision is bad doesn't work. Two utterly different things.

There's a lot of static online. If there's a problem there's going to be a lot of people who mention it. Someone screaming and whining isn't going to be the only person bringing it up.

So, again - someone wants to express their opinion that's fine. Someone wants their opinion to be heard or respected they need to put the effort into making it worth hearing and worth respecting.

[carl kerensky]

shintakie, on 09 September 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

It depends what they switch to. If they switched to the new CryEngine they'd be able to import it, though from what I hear the new CryEngine (and CryEngine3) has really ****** import tools.

If they switched to UE4, technically speakin its piss easy to import models into UE4, like literally drag and drop easy. However I'm fairly certain that'd cause legal problems since they used CryEngine to create the models originally which would probably be covered under proprietary law stuff.

I for one am all for a switch to Unreal. If the cry engine is such a ***** to work with why not and you can double your production efforts then.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

See you planet side Bishop o7

[Bishop Steiner]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 09 September 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

See you planet side Bishop o7

not....if I see you first.

Mahah. Mahahah, MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

[Kjudoon]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

not....if I see you first.

Mahah. Mahahah, MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Good work on your evil laugh. Nice diaphragm control. It's all about the standards.

You working with a vocal coach?

BTW, you rarely see me coming first... just Betty screaming about my missiles.

[Kilo 40]

MischiefSC, on 09 September 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

It's one thing to say you don't like something. It's another to say 'I don't like this and I need to make sure nobody else does either'.