13 replies to this topic

[Sagamore]

I don't normally want to hurt my team by taking such a bad mech and it turns out the extra 50% c-bills wasn't even worth the trouble. I earn far more money in other mechs, despite the promotion on the IV4. Inner Sphere 60 tonners have no place in the current state of the game. I haven't seen a Dragon or a Quickdraw in forever (besides the poor fools who try the QKD trial mech). Well it turns out I am the fool and have 4 x QKD and DRG fully mastered including heroes for both chassis. I collected these before they became obsolete. I really liked the idea of a fast striker/flanker mech.

There are a few major issues right now:

• 3,3,3,3 essentially means a Timberwolf can be placed on Team 1 versus a Quickdraw on Team 2. A TW is practically an assault mech, a QKD is comparable to a medium.
  
• Scaling: why is the QKD so big? Missile splash blows out legs due to giant hitboxes (perhaps more noticeable with clan LRMs or maybe just because there seem to be more LRMs in general).
  
• Clan arms race: Direwolves able to carry 2xgauss and 2xppc are blowing out my XL sidetorsos like there's no tomorrow. Bring a STD? I'm either too slow and get cored anyways or I can run a big STD and carry the weapons of a light mech.

Oh and by the way, I never saw any other IV4s the whole weekend.

I hope these mechs can be quirked back from the dead. If they aren't garbage tier, I don't know what is.

[STEF_]

Imo, it's not a problem of the IV, but about having 1/1/1/1 without a tons balance.

edit: and we should have also a 3/3/3/3 system with ton balance.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 29 September 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Sagamore]

Stefka Kerensky, on 29 September 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Imo, it's not a problem of the IV, but about having 1/1/1/1 without a tons balance.

edit: and we should have also a 3/3/3/3 system with ton balance.

Yes, I would say this is the biggest problem. I think technically there is a system to find comparable tonnage but there are release valves that quickly broaden the search to anything in the weight class. Since there are almost no 60 tonners in the queue, this is moot (same can be said for Fleas and Commandos in the light class).

Edit: typo

Edited by Sagamore, 29 September 2014 - 11:15 PM.

[Xarian]

Sagamore, on 29 September 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

There are a few major issues right now:

• 3,3,3,3 essentially means a Timberwolf can be placed on Team 1 versus a Quickdraw on Team 2. A TW is practically an assault mech, a QKD is comparable to a medium.
  
• Scaling: why is the QKD so big? Missile splash blows out legs due to giant hitboxes (perhaps more noticeable with clan LRMs or maybe just because there seem to be more LRMs in general).

Both of these are legitimate problems. Tonnage matching is obvious. Mech scaling is slightly less obvious, but also true; many mediums and heavies are nearly as big as assaults, and that makes it really rough on them.

[Deathlike]

Sagamore, on 29 September 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

I don't normally want to hurt my team by taking such a bad mech and it turns out the extra 50% c-bills wasn't even worth the trouble. I earn far more money in other mechs, despite the promotion on the IV4. Inner Sphere 60 tonners have no place in the current state of the game. I haven't seen a Dragon or a Quickdraw in forever (besides the poor fools who try the QKD trial mech). Well it turns out I am the fool and have 4 x QKD and DRG fully mastered including heroes for both chassis. I collected these before they became obsolete. I really liked the idea of a fast striker/flanker mech.

I have a soft place in my heart for the Quickdraw, but there are flaws regardless and the IV is arguably one of the worst Quickdraws of the series (well, it competes with the 4G for that nomination). I'm sure some people would disagree. The thing is, if we go by the "Tier" system that Russ is discussing, at "best" it is a Tier 3 mech... at least the Quickdraw-5K is while the other variants are closer to Tier 4 than they are Tier 3.

Quote

There are a few major issues right now:

• 3,3,3,3 essentially means a Timberwolf can be placed on Team 1 versus a Quickdraw on Team 2. A TW is practically an assault mech, a QKD is comparable to a medium.

That's been discussed ad nauseum. 60 tonners tend to not compete with the a 75 tonner... same thing goes with the Cicada vs the Shadowhawk... they serve very different roles. Nonetheless, 3/3/3/3 or "weight matching" doesn't help with this.

Quote

• Scaling: why is the QKD so big? Missile splash blows out legs due to giant hitboxes (perhaps more noticeable with clan LRMs or maybe just because there seem to be more LRMs in general).

This was always a problem and brought up in discussions about scaling and Quickdraws. At this point, it can't be helped unless PGI is willing to revisit scaling and take it seriously.

Quote

• Clan arms race: Direwolves able to carry 2xgauss and 2xppc are blowing out my XL sidetorsos like there's no tomorrow. Bring a STD? I'm either too slow and get cored anyways or I can run a big STD and carry the weapons of a light mech.

Quickdraws are more of a striker than they are a brawler. You really want to get that shot in and then get the heck out of dodge. That is the only solution to it. Staring at a Dire Wolf in the first place is bad for any mech's health.

Quote

Oh and by the way, I never saw any other IV4s the whole weekend.


I hope these mechs can be quirked back from the dead. If they aren't garbage tier, I don't know what is.

Outside of armor buffs (damage resistance, actual external/internal armor additions, or a combination of the two), it is really unlikely to happen. It may need some torso twist/turn/accel buffs as well, but we'll have to see what comes of PGI's quirk adjustments.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 September 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[Sagamore]

Deathlike, on 29 September 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

That's been discussed ad nauseum. 60 tonners tend to not compete with the a 75 tonner... same thing goes with the Cicada vs the Shadowhawk... they serve very different roles. Nonetheless, 3/3/3/3 or "weight matching" doesn't help with this.

The only way I see the lighter chassis being truly useful is in a Dropship mode that has an arbitrary hard tonnage limit for each player, say 250 tons, which would limit players' ability to take the largest mech in each weight class and bringing more variety to the battlefield.

I don't see any other way in the current game to encourage players to take "bad" mechs. Not bad on their own but they can't perform relative to the other choices in the weight class.

Edit: At risk of contradicting myself, I think players should be able to take whatever they want. However, from a game perspective there is some merit in making all chassis competitive within the weight class. Lets wait and see what the quirks bring.

Edited by Sagamore, 29 September 2014 - 11:39 PM.

[SgtMagor]

was using my IV4 and doing ok with it but I PUG drop, dunno if I would even consider using one if I was in a league!.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

IV-4 suffers from horrible hardpoints.

1-2 missile hardpoints more,more torso twist and a bit larger engine cap would make all the difference.

Still you can do decent in it,just put 2 LRM20:s or 2 ASRM6-launchers/AC5/2 medium lasers - combos

[Alistair Winter]

I kind of feel bad for the people who bought the bad hero mechs, but then I go.... "Did you not read the stats before you bought that thing?" I mean, sure, I bought the Huginn. It's not really a "Tier 1" kind of mech. But I knew what I was getting into. I knew it would suck. Every time I drop in my Huginn, I do it for the challenge.

There's a lot of people buying the latest line of PGI's uninspired hero mechs. I get that, if you're a completionist. But how could you not notice how bad they are, and then prepare yourself for disappointment?

That being said, I agree with the OP. It's silly that the matchmaker makes a big deal about seperating the 80-ton AWS from the 75-ton Orion in the queue, but doesn't give a fiddle about whether your heavy mech is 60 tons or 75 tons. Or whether your assault mech is 80 tons or 100 tons. However... I think PGI may have done it like this because it was the best way to try and stop the assault mech arms race that was happening. And we know why there was an arms race in the first place. Because PGI made assault mechs the best mechs in the game, in order to sell more MC. If the Locust was the best mech in the game, PGI would make less money. That's a fact.

In order for matchmaker to ignore weight classes and focus on matching tonnage, you need to give players another reason to play lights and mediums. Now they're waiting as long for a match as anyone else, so why pick the least popular mechs? What's the solution here? The ideal solution is to buff light mechs and mediums, but then PGI loses money in the short run.

IMO, they would earn money in the long run, because it makes the game more fun and exciting, and people don't get fed up with a monotonous meta with alpha strike Dire Wolves. But what do I know?

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Alistair Winter, on 30 September 2014 - 12:43 AM, said:

I kind of feel bad for the people who bought the bad hero mechs, but then I go.... "Did you not read the stats before you bought that thing?" I mean, sure, I bought the Huginn. It's not really a "Tier 1" kind of mech. But I knew what I was getting into. I knew it would suck. Every time I drop in my Huginn, I do it for the challenge.

There's a lot of people buying the latest line of PGI's uninspired hero mechs. I get that, if you're a completionist. But how could you not notice how bad they are, and then prepare yourself for disappointment?

That being said, I agree with the OP. It's silly that the matchmaker makes a big deal about seperating the 80-ton AWS from the 75-ton Orion in the queue, but doesn't give a fiddle about whether your heavy mech is 60 tons or 75 tons. Or whether your assault mech is 80 tons or 100 tons. However... I think PGI may have done it like this because it was the best way to try and stop the assault mech arms race that was happening. And we know why there was an arms race in the first place. Because PGI made assault mechs the best mechs in the game, in order to sell more MC. If the Locust was the best mech in the game, PGI would make less money. That's a fact.

In order for matchmaker to ignore weight classes and focus on matching tonnage, you need to give players another reason to play lights and mediums. Now they're waiting as long for a match as anyone else, so why pick the least popular mechs? What's the solution here? The ideal solution is to buff light mechs and mediums, but then PGI loses money in the short run.

IMO, they would earn money in the long run, because it makes the game more fun and exciting, and people don't get fed up with a monotonous meta with alpha strike Dire Wolves. But what do I know?

Well the tiered quirks are coming,and Quickdraw in general might receive them more than the "better" heavy mechs in IS arsenal.

Im more excited about coming quirks to the Dragon.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Quickdraws are basically the mechs you play when you want to frustrate the hell out of yourself.

Most players will just go straight for the legs, so you can't play it how it is intended to be played, Like a Medium soaring through the air brawling everything around like a champ.

Its pretty much, walk out into the fight, miss a jump because of JJ nerf, blunder around for a bit, then watch in horror while your legs melt.

It can be a decent mech, but because of the bloated scale (literally the same profile as a victor or Atlas) you just end up soaking up way more damage than you should.

Its pretty much a Medium, with all the drawbacks of a Top tier Medium (armor/firepower/subpar Hardpoint selection) but with the costs of Heavy Tier with lower mobility.

And the 1 ton JJ's get expensive for the lowest weight Heavy in its class.

If it was scaled down to be more in line with say, the ShadowHawk's size, it might actually be a decent mech to pilot.

That being said, Griffin has similar loadouts and can outperform the QD anyday of the week, at 10 tons lighter.

Edited by Mister D, 30 September 2014 - 02:31 AM.

[Dracol]

Sagamore, on 29 September 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Yes, I would say this is the biggest problem. I think technically there is a system to find comparable tonnage but there are release valves that quickly broaden the search to anything in the weight class. Since there are almost no 60 tonners in the queue, this is moot (same can be said for Fleas and Commandos in the light class).

Edit: typo

Yup, yup... oh wait, the Vulture is a 60 tonner and the newest toy. Been seeing a lot of those lately.

[SgtMagor]

when the IV4 was released the first thing I did was put UAC5's on the mech. big difference, and when assault and heavy mechs think your an easy kill and you open up with the UAC5's they realize their mistake to late!

[Training Instructor]

Loved dragons, specifically the Flame. Then they nerfed one of my most effective builds, 4xL-laser, and it hasn't been the same since. I can still bring it out and do okay, but it's outclassed by Jagers and Cataphracts, not to mention Mad Dogs, Summoners, and Timber Wolves

60-65 ton mechs need .75 ton jump jets.

Otherwise the QD doesn't do anything better than a Griffin or Shawk can, when it comes right down to it.