724 replies to this topic

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Bottom line: If people feel a free-to-play game is too grindy (which is apparently the case since so many thread have been/are being made about it) then telling them to HTFU just results in people going off to play a different game.

Now, if that's what you want then that's one thing. As long as you're willing to own the lower player population, longer matchmaker wait times, and lower income to PGI.

[Assiah]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 26 October 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Bottom line: If people feel a free-to-play game is too grindy (which is apparently the case since so many thread have been/are being made about it) then telling them to HTFU just results in people going off to play a different game.

Now, if that's what you want then that's one thing. As long as you're willing to own the lower player population, longer matchmaker wait times, and lower income to PGI.

I'd also point out that these threads are nothing new, they have been open to discussion since they nerfed rewards after removing repair and rearm. So the issue isn't that we are just now thinking we are not making enough, its that we have thought this for a long time. I personally think it is one of the major factors to the population decline since beta.

[Mystere]

SpeedingBus, on 26 October 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

I am more interested in fact that we haven't heard a word from PGI stating that rewards are fine as is or that they will buff rewards. Deafening silence is never a good thing usually means PGI is hoping this will blow over but guess what it'll blow over in a sense that no one will talk about it but players leaving will be louder than words in the end.

It's a weekend, and some people actually value their weekends more than others. As such, I will not begrudge them if they hold off saying something until Monday or later.

[Mr Beefy]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

It's a weekend, and some people actually value their weekends more than others. As such, I will not begrudge them if they hold off saying something until Monday or later.

Completely understandable and reasonable. They have been pretty good about responding to concerns here this year... so I would expect them to not treat this one any different.

[Assiah]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

It's a weekend, and some people actually value their weekends more than others. As such, I will not begrudge them if they hold off saying something until Monday or later.

yeah this, PGI has never been big on responding to player concerns on a weekend. I think we got Russ to post on a Sunday ONCE, and I think that was when they said they were going to go ahead with 3PV. I have a feeling they will take some time to skim the threads, and if there is enough concern they might put up a response, otherwise expect to see something much later.

[MischiefSC]

There seems to be some confusion on a few things here.

1. If you don't spend money on MW:O, you are not so much a player as you are content for those who do spend money.

I don't mean that in any way to insult anyone; it's just an observation on the business model. If you play any PvP F2P game then you are not so much a customer but you are content to be consumed by customers, as in those people who pay money.

Ergo balancing income to F2P players is largely irrelevant - they're never going to have more than a handful of mechs and rarely have good modules, double basics and the other stuff that makes you truly competitive in the game. It's like living NPCs, meant to be farmed by the player.

This is where the disconnect is on income. Limited mech-bays and the like are the cap that splits F2P from paying customers, not cbills. The 830 million cbills I've earned are not the point - the point is how much more stuff do I feel inclined to spend money on. Real money, not cbills.

That's the real crux here. Cbills are irrelevant. Real money is relevant. How does the flow of cbills affect the flow of real dollars. Mech packs? They sell incredibly well. Hero mechs? Not as well but well. Champion variants? Far less so. Premium Time? Probably a fraction as well as mech packs.

Why?

People pay for fun and toys. Way less likely to spend big bucks to avoid a grind. $0.99 to avoid a grind? Sure. Convenience fees are the approach to those sorts of micro-transactions. MW:O doesn't do that; they do entertainment investments, as in $20 or more. Toys and treats for lack of a better term. People get toys and treats to reward themselves (or PGI) for something they enjoy. Happy people spend more money than frustrated people.

If it wasn't 40-60 hours to buy 3 Dragons/QDs/whatever I'd pick one up to test out the quirks, buy mech bays for it and some MC for paint and decorations. At 40-60 hours though it's not worth the gamble. I'm not going to reward PGI for making the prospect of getting and playing something other than a top tier mech an unworthy investment, so instead my wallet stays closed and I buy something on Steam instead. Crusader Kings 2 it is with all the DLC! I am currently blonding the whole of europe, oh a-viking we will go!

Make sense? It's not about what people can do with 6 mech bays. It's about what best motivates paying customer to spend more cash.

2. Double basics and good modules are what splits the top tier from the upper-middle.

I saw someone talking about how unimportant double basics and modules are. It's almost a 20% difference, having full Master with maxed modules plus double basics. If I said 'You only make $0.80 per $1.00 I make, that means I make $30/hour and you make $24/hour, but THAT IS TOTALLY THE SAME, RIGHT?' I would be a total *******.

Faster cooling equates to faster refire, more mobility means faster into position and turning away from return fire. Especially at the top tier this is what makes the absolute difference.

If you're derping around the scrub tier it probably doesn't mean much. If two of us are playing the same match in identical mechs but mine is almost 20% faster, more maneuverable, cooling faster, higher heat cap, fires faster, restarts from overheat more quickly, has all maxed modules for better range and refire.... well, one of us is pretty much just content for the other. That leads us back to part 1.

A new player is more valuable than someone who's a dedicated F2P player. A dedicated F2P player is content for playing customers but has shown that they won't convert to a playing customer. A new customer may be a paying customer with the right motivation.

It's not about cbills. It's about DALLAH BILLZ. How do you best control the flow of the former to goose the later? For me, to get more money out of my wallet, give me more cbills. That would give me a reason to spend time and real money on something other that peak meta mechs and grow my stable.

[SpeedingBus]

Assiah, on 26 October 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

yeah this, PGI has never been big on responding to player concerns on a weekend. I think we got Russ to post on a Sunday ONCE, and I think that was when they said they were going to go ahead with 3PV. I have a feeling they will take some time to skim the threads, and if there is enough concern they might put up a response, otherwise expect to see something much later.

Alright than we shall see it will be interesting on PGI response especially when they see the state of forums.

Edited by SpeedingBus, 26 October 2014 - 06:43 PM.

[Mystere]

Mr Beefy, on 26 October 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Are you pointing us to the new mastery packs??? Because if you are, these type of packs were not around until recently and well.... we have already been played out the painful grind, many of us have the Heros we want.

Nope. It was just a response to SpeedingBus' comment about Hero pricing and money. Nothing more, nothing less.

Assiah, on 26 October 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Thats some fine math there, shame it only proves you have a system to judge how much YOU wish to spend in a game. The problem with your argument that you are making is this. You are saying that in order to compete in this game you must spend money, otherwise you can suffer. Which is again, a call to punish a free player for not paying, rather than rewarding a paying player for paying. That is an argument that leads to a failed free to play game.

Also before you claim that free players somehow owe PGI for hosting the game, remember these players are still providing something to the game, population. Without your free players, its just the small number of players who are willing to spend money on the game, which at that point, why did you make a free to play game.

Methinks you are pulling things from out of your behind (Eww! Yuck!) and passing them off as my thoughts. You are inferring something that wasn't intended.

See above.

Edited by Mystere, 26 October 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

It's not about cbills. It's about DALLAH BILLZ. How do you best control the flow of the former to goose the later? For me, to get more money out of my wallet, give me more cbills. That would give me a reason to spend time and real money on something other that peak meta mechs and grow my stable.

Totally agreed with this.

I bought the Koshi pack, and am considering the Resistance ones.

The free 30 days of premium the Koshi pack gave me? Not going to use it. Base earnings are low enough IMO that turning premium on is a waste. This means I won't be spending any actual money on premium time either, because the return on investment is a bad deal.

Hero mechs? I'm not paying $30+ for a single bunch of pixels, even with the included 30% c-bill bonus. Not worth the price.

Champion mechs or regular mechs via MC? Hahaha no.

Cockpit items, camo schemes, color unlocks? Way overpriced for what they are. Not paying for them.

Mastery packs? Better deal than a hero mech, but still not worth it. $10 for a pack and I might consider it worth the cost.

I basically only use MC to buy mechbays. And this is because they are cheap. PGI needs to learn the Steam lesson: lowering prices increases sales. All those things above? I'd love to give PGI money for them! But they are not priced reasonably, so PGI gets no money from me.

[Assiah]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

There seems to be some confusion on a few things here.

1. If you don't spend money on MW:O, you are not so much a player as you are content for those who do spend money.

I don't mean that in any way to insult anyone; it's just an observation on the business model. If you play any PvP F2P game then you are not so much a customer but you are content to be consumed by customers, as in those people who pay money.

Ergo balancing income to F2P players is largely irrelevant - they're never going to have more than a handful of mechs and rarely have good modules, double basics and the other stuff that makes you truly competitive in the game. It's like living NPCs, meant to be farmed by the player.

This is where the disconnect is on income. Limited mech-bays and the like are the cap that splits F2P from paying customers, not cbills. The 830 million cbills I've earned are not the point - the point is how much more stuff do I feel inclined to spend money on. Real money, not cbills.

That's the real crux here. Cbills are irrelevant. Real money is relevant. How does the flow of cbills affect the flow of real dollars. Mech packs? They sell incredibly well. Hero mechs? Not as well but well. Champion variants? Far less so. Premium Time? Probably a fraction as well as mech packs.

Why?

People pay for fun and toys. Way less likely to spend big bucks to avoid a grind. $0.99 to avoid a grind? Sure. Convenience fees are the approach to those sorts of micro-transactions. MW:O doesn't do that; they do entertainment investments, as in $20 or more. Toys and treats for lack of a better term. People get toys and treats to reward themselves (or PGI) for something they enjoy. Happy people spend more money than frustrated people.

If it wasn't 40-60 hours to buy 3 Dragons/QDs/whatever I'd pick one up to test out the quirks, buy mech bays for it and some MC for paint and decorations. At 40-60 hours though it's not worth the gamble. I'm not going to reward PGI for making the prospect of getting and playing something other than a top tier mech an unworthy investment, so instead my wallet stays closed and I buy something on Steam instead. Crusader Kings 2 it is with all the DLC! I am currently blonding the whole of europe, oh a-viking we will go!

Make sense? It's not about what people can do with 6 mech bays. It's about what best motivates paying customer to spend more cash.

2. Double basics and good modules are what splits the top tier from the upper-middle.

I saw someone talking about how unimportant double basics and modules are. It's almost a 20% difference, having full Master with maxed modules plus double basics. If I said 'You only make $0.80 per $1.00 I make, that means I make $30/hour and you make $24/hour, but THAT IS TOTALLY THE SAME, RIGHT?' I would be a total *******.

Faster cooling equates to faster refire, more mobility means faster into position and turning away from return fire. Especially at the top tier this is what makes the absolute difference.

If you're derping around the scrub tier it probably doesn't mean much. If two of us are playing the same match in identical mechs but mine is almost 20% faster, more maneuverable, cooling faster, higher heat cap, fires faster, restarts from overheat more quickly, has all maxed modules for better range and refire.... well, one of us is pretty much just content for the other. That leads us back to part 1.

A new player is more valuable than someone who's a dedicated F2P player. A dedicated F2P player is content for playing customers but has shown that they won't convert to a playing customer. A new customer may be a paying customer with the right motivation.

It's not about cbills. It's about DALLAH BILLZ. How do you best control the flow of the former to goose the later? For me, to get more money out of my wallet, give me more cbills. That would give me a reason to spend time and real money on something other that peak meta mechs and grow my stable.

very well written and very accurate. Some players will always be free players, you don't really want to punish them because they will leave, and that means you are losing content for your paying players. But yeah if you give me more incentives to want to buy more mechbays, you will be damn sure I will. hell almost all of my founders MC went to mechbays when I started for that very reason, I wanted to have a ton of mechs to fit my mood. But I don't feel like I can do that anymore, instead I feel like I need to make an investment in time to get a mech and it damn well better be worth it in a competitive sense.

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Methinks you are pulling things from out of your behind (Eww! Yuck!) and passing them off as my thoughts. You are inferring something that wasn't intended.

See above.

If I misread anything into your post I apologize. But from the way you were posting it sounded like you were advocating that if we wanted to earn more we should get a hero mech, and I've been on these forums long enough to see someone make the claim that people should get a second job to help buy more MC to compete before, so I don't rule out any argument.

But again I apologize if I misinterpreted your argument

Edited by Assiah, 26 October 2014 - 07:00 PM.

[Mystere]

SpeedingBus, on 26 October 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Comparing a full fledged game to a chassis in a game.... awful comparison.

It's actually much more basic than that. I am comparing the value of entertainment I am getting for the money I paid, whether it's a full game, a single MWO chassis, or something else. Because in the end, what we are actually paying for is entertainment.

[Mr Beefy]

SpeedingBus, on 26 October 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Alright than we shall see it will be interesting on PGI response especially when they see the state of forums.

I don't believe it is a state of the forums type issue yet, and not why I have sincerely voiced my concerns on this issue....

This isn't me trying to tell PGI or Russ or all of you, up them or else! This thread seemed to start off pretty calm, and people were trying to give some honest and real feed back on why they think there are some concerns with the pay out in C-bills, and XP. It is a real concern, and I believe Mischief just hit it on the head, like others have also. Then we ended up getting bum rushed with several others just spamming us with the same old same old to throw the topic off. When they got called out for it, calmly and trying to stay polite with them on it, it turned into we will insult you evil Democrat Supports, because you must be, you want everything free!

I think for the most part, with the help of calmer minds and even more patient than I, this has stayed somewhat productive and on topic through out the course of the conversation, regardless of the attempt to throw it off the rails. We really need to get to the core problem here, and fast. I think many of us have made some very strong points here, and I hope PGI will really take a look at this and make the change.

God, what a nice change it would be to hear everyone saying... yeah I didn't like the dragons I bought, they didn't fit my play style so I just bought 3 Jegars instead after grinding them out for 10 hours this weekend and love them. Big plus if we heard that bought DHS, and endero too... for all of them :-) We might just even hear the OP say, yeah, I am outta mech bays after this weekend, looks like PGI is having another sale on them, need to pick up some more for next weekends run. Wouldn't that be something?

Edited by Mr Beefy, 26 October 2014 - 07:13 PM.

[Mr Beefy]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Nope. It was just a response to SpeedingBus' comment about Hero pricing and money. Nothing more, nothing less.




Methinks you are pulling things from out of your behind (Eww! Yuck!) and passing them off as my thoughts. You are inferring something that wasn't intended.

See above.

Prior to this new combo packs coming out, IMO hero mechs didn't seem like such a good deal unless they run the 50% off sale on them. Combo packs for newbies or veterans that do not have them already they seem like a much better deal now. That is a good thing. I don't think any of us are bashing on PGI here, we all have our mixed feelings about what has happened in the past... I am looking forward to the future regardless of my memory of past issues.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 26 October 2014 - 07:15 PM.

[Assiah]

Mr Beefy, on 26 October 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

I don't believe it is a state of the forums type issue yet, and not why have have sincerely voiced my concerns on this issue....

This isn't me trying to tell PGI or Russ or all of you, up them or else! This thread seemed to start off pretty calm, and people were trying to give some honest and real feed back on why they think there are some concerns with the pay out in C-bills, and XP. It is a real concern, and I believe Mischief just hit it on the head, like others have also. Then we ended up getting bum rushed with several others just spamming us with the same old same old to throw the topic off. When they got called out for it, calmly and trying to stay polite with them on it, it turned into we will insult you evil Democrat Supports, because you must be, you want everything free!

I think for the most part, with the help of a calmer minds and even more patient than I, this has stayed somewhat productive and on topic through out the course of the conversation, regardless of the attempt to throw it off the rails. We really need to get to the core problem here, and fast. I think many of us have made some very strong points here, and I hope PGI will really take a look at this and make the change.

God, what a nice change it would be to hear everyone saying... yeah I didn't like the dragons I bought, they didn't fit my play style so I just bought 3 Jegars instead after grinding them out for 10 hours this weekend and love them. Big plus if we heard that bought DHS, and endero too... for all of them :-) We might just even hear the OP say, yeah, I am outta mech bays after this weekend, looks like PGI is having another sale on them, need to pick up some more for next weekends run. Wouldn't that be something?

That would indeed be something, I mean I can understand why they didn't want to do that back when the game came out, I mean when open beta hit we had what 9 mechs (not counting variants). But these days we have a wide array of mechs to choose from, and one of the things that keeps the re-playability up in these games is the ability to experiment with builds and play styles. I feel we currently do not have that. In fact it feels like more of a gamble like some said, you choose a mech you hope will fit your play style and you better stick with it, otherwise its going to be another 2-3 months before you can try again.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

It's not about cbills. It's about DALLAH BILLZ. How do you best control the flow of the former to goose the later? For me, to get more money out of my wallet, give me more cbills. That would give me a reason to spend time and real money on something other that peak meta mechs and grow my stable.

Would increasing premium rewards to 100% or 200% cinch the deal for you?

[Mr Beefy]

Assiah, on 26 October 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

That would indeed be something, I mean I can understand why they didn't want to do that back when the game came out, I mean when open beta hit we had what 9 mechs (not counting variants). But these days we have a wide array of mechs to choose from, and one of the things that keeps the re-playability up in these games is the ability to experiment with builds and play styles. I feel we currently do not have that. In fact it feels like more of a gamble like some said, you choose a mech you hope will fit your play style and you better stick with it, otherwise its going to be another 2-3 months before you can try again.

This is the whole point and reason to post and discuss this issue. It is a huge gamble for even Veteran players to sink the funds into a new chassis. Take the resale amount given back if you don't like them, and well we are just getting flat pounded on.... for what? I also can understand if they wanted to control the flow with only 9 mechs out, we are well past that, with over 156 mechs out now...and more are coming on a steady pace. For my IS account, with the turning of the leaf, I want to pick up my first pack ever.... the $80 one. I want the king crab, I want to support this game with cash, however when I look at the painful grind that just seems so....greedy...dirty... I don't know what to call it, it just makes me want to not spend the very little cash I have right now on it.

I am huge fan of BT....and if I feel that way, how will our friends we want to get into this game feel, how will new players feel? I just can't pitch this game to them at its current state with the painful grind, It's all I can do to keep grinding myself, and I love what PGI is doing in the last year...not everything, but all the things they are doing well is a very nice change! It gives me hope they will try to figure this out, and loosen the gates up... trust the players to help them by helping us.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 26 October 2014 - 07:33 PM.

[Assiah]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Would increasing premium rewards to 100% or 200% cinch the deal for you?

For me personally, no. But then again I've never been big on buying boosts in any free to play game. When I purchase something with cash, I want something permanent (so to speak), so I tend to go after mech bays, mech packs, camos and the like. But that is my personally opinion on it. Good question though.

[Mr Beefy]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Would increasing premium rewards to 100% or 200% cinch the deal for you?

That would kinda seem kinda seem questionable to me....unless they dropped the price on PT, big time. Like I have said, with in reason if they do the C-bill and XP boost, and I believe Mischief hit it on the money.... all will be good. We will all love them for it, and things will start to improve in the player base, and it will show big time in games we all play together.

The true die hard guys that still pull non-team play will change and if they don't change after players trying to help, will most likely become the toxic ones that you can start to weed out fast of the player base. I am sorry, but only a toxic player would complain about a pay hike for all.

[Arkbird_]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Would increasing premium rewards to 100% or 200% cinch the deal for you?

Does this help with player retention with new players who have no MC enjoy the game more?

No it does not. This helps established players that have MC for sure but the main problem I see with this game is growing the population of free to play players. We NEED these players if we want MWO to grow. The longer a player stays with a game the more likely they are to spend because they "invest" time into the game thus it becomes more reasonable to invest money. Before players will spend money they need to INVEST in this game before they will spend their money but if they can't afford anything to begin with they invest nothing because they feel they wasted time and leave. Good idea but goes to the wrong crowd. It would definitely help older players unhappy with current earnings but doesn't help retain new players as they don't have premium time, they are treated as veteran players after 25 games.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Would increasing premium rewards to 100% or 200% cinch the deal for you?

If they did the above while also only having premium count down while you're logged in it would be a lot more attractive.

Premium time counting down overnight while you're not even playing the game is a big lemon IMO.