724 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Why on earth would you be aggressive in a Cicada.

If you don't know the reason, you don't have any idea.

Most matches are decisively won by being aggressive. Of course, there's always being too aggressive and not being too cohesive, but any time aggression is made, usually it leads towards a win (no guarantees of that though).

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Its entirely the loadout. The overall % of boost you get out of the skills that are applicable to your ride, pale in comparison to a meta build vs a crap load out/trial/stock.

Loadouts don't immediately give you skill. Understanding and using all the advantages that exist is a requirement to maximize a particular build... whether it is meta or not. Giving people the "best build" amounts to nothing if they can't use it. That has always been true.

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When you get a meta vs a meta, the small percentage of advantage you have over him statistically, is completely nullified by skill.

If you don't have the advantages, then there exists a handicap. It is arguable that Speed Tweak is the most beneficial for lights.. as being slow generally is bad (unless you are a Clan Light at the moment, where you can't get that much better). That 10kph bonus for equipping a large XL engine on an IS Light is generally make or break.

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I see trial Direwolves **** people all the time. Usually its a good player whose just lulzing around in it for a change of pace. Theyre better in their trial rides, than many custom Dire's ive seen, simply because theyre bad loadouts. Not because they werent mastered.

No... the trial Dire Wolves are driving by players that magically become easy targets for the meta-Dire Wolves... and usually rather decisively. Even when we factor out instances where Daishis are left alone in the wild, the Daishi that gets the meta-load of firepower out quickly and efficiently tends to rack out 1k damage games almost effortlessly. But hey, they are in "Trial Mechs"... learning how slow they are, and "not currently able" to maximize it quite so readily.

[Brody319]

Sean von Steinike, on 26 October 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Those encourage air/artillery strikes. Haha.

Deathball will happen no matter what unless they start punishing for it. Arty and Air strikes rarely pay back what you spent for them.


I think the problem with c-bills are there are very few rewards currently so players who want to play specific ways don't get rewarded as much. I tend to play front line brawler so I'm making a lot of cash. I don't think we need to buff c-bills, but rather increase the number of rewards.

[Lasertron3000]

SpeedingBus, on 26 October 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Do you have a problem? I mean seriously your applying politics to a video game forum and that whole generation thing is stupid and it just goes to shows how narrow minded you can be by applying those views to an entire generation of people.

Me thinks he be a bit obtuse, if you know what i'm saying.

[KraftySOT]

Take War Thunder for example.

If you own a BF110, and want that to be the most effective thing ever, you either need to fly it every day, all day, for about 8 months, to max out your gunners and your crew.

Even if you do this, the actual advantage to you doing that, is negligible. Slightly more accuracy doesnt matter, slightly less blackout doesnt matter. Reload time doesnt matter. None of it really matters.

Thats why its there for you to waste your time at and not something you just straight up buy. Because its pointless. Its fluff. Its there to give the appearance of progression, when there really isnt any, so you keep playing

[KraftySOT]

And everyones grind, is based on what theyre grinding TOO. (or FOR)

If your "goal" is to get every single mech. Your grind is really really long.

If your "goal" is a mech you like, thats it, your grind is really, really short.

If your "goal" is a mech that prints money, your grind is really, really short.

If your "goal" is to master Ravens...your grind is really, really short.

If your "goal" is to master Direwolves...your grind is pretty damned long.

People seem to the think that everyones grind is the same, and that the grind is forced on you.

No. You forced it on yourself by way of your goals. By way of what youre grinding for.

If you want one mech mastered of each class, your grind isnt very long. If you want every single mech available mastered. You might not ever even be able to accomplish that in your lifetime.

[Solidussnake]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

I make plenty, ive seen most of the games content. You guys are doing it wrong.

Then since we are all doing it wrong, where is your post of "doing it right"? Where is your "Hey casuals here how you beat the system to earn the most amount of Cbills with the least amount of effort"

I've not seen you link one For that matter I've not seen anyone link one who's saying "O its all fine these people just need to get over it or go play something else"

I get the whole you are so good at this game you've got it all figured out. I suppose everyone is suppose to do just do what you are doing? Where is your comprehensive guide to beating the system and earning all the cbills.

If you are so good at it, You should put it up in the newbie threads so people can read it and learn it and not leave the game because they realize its going to take playing this game like its a second job to get anywhere.

Hell I'm even interested in what it might say since you claim everything is perfect as is. If its so perfect then why don't you help out all the people who think its broken with your apparent godhood knowledge and show us all how to beat the cbill system so we can all make a close to half a million without a premium time/ mech.

Edited by Solidussnake, 26 October 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Mr Beefy, on 26 October 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Take your first line for example again.... = fail.... we don't care about other games, we care about the progress and health of this one.

And that is why you fail.

This game does not exist in a vacuum, despite your point of view being firmly lodged there. This isnt even PGIs business plan. They didnt invent it.

Basically what youre saying is that you dont care about how other planes fly, you only care that your brick isnt flying.

Maybe if you DID care about what other games do, youd understand why they do those things, and why those things are, or arent, done here.

Solidussnake, on 26 October 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Then since we are all doing it wrong, where is your post of "doing it right"? Where is your "Hey casuals here how you beat the system to earn the most amount of Cbills with the least amount of effort"

I've not seen you link one For that matter I've not seen anyone link one who's saying "O its all fine these people just need to get over it or go play something else"

I get the whole you are so good at this game you've got it all figured out. I suppose everyone is suppose to do just do what you are doing? Where is your comprehensive guide to beating the system and earning all the cbills.

If you are so good at it, You should put it up in the newbie threads so people can read it and learn it and not leave the game because they realize its going to take playing this game like its a second job to get anywhere.

Hell I'm even interested in what it might say since you claim everything is perfect as is.

You seem to have missed all my posts for the past week.

http://mwomercs.com/...40#entry3842540

Edited by KraftySOT, 26 October 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Bront]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Like Banshee...no arm weps, not fast enough to need anchor turn.

Actually, without usable arms and being slow, Anchor turn is even more important. It lets you twist out of damage better (you can use your legs to twist out of damage), track faster mechs better, and taking tighter corners means your movement is more efficient. It's how 2 mechs that go the same speed have 1 that still gets somewhere faster.

Dude, your points are moving towards "If you're not playing the game my way, you're doing it wrong" territory, which isn't the point of the thread, and missing the point all together. Fine, so you don't need the extra CBills. Your game experience likely isn't the same as the average player, or new player, or other experienced players.

[KraftySOT]

And things arent perfect.

Theres no LRM specific rewards, its biting off Flanking and thats clearly a placeholder.

Theres only two "roles".

Scout and brawler. All the other roles need specific rewards.

Flanking is obviously liberally applied and thats a place holder...etc

Bront, on 26 October 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Actually, without usable arms and being slow, Anchor turn is even more important.

Only if youre moving, if youre not in momentum, youre not getting the skill to proc for you. Rotating doesnt do it.

[Mr Beefy]

Assiah, on 25 October 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

So I'm reading through this thread and it boggles my mind to see people saying that the current earnings system is fine as is. Listen, you shouldn't have to be pulling 500+ damage with assists, kills, and the like to pull 150k, you should be able to pull 150k derping about in a trail mech as a new player on a loss. With good matches pulling 300k. Also this should be without a hero mech or premium time running.

The current grind is costing PGI potential customers. I have personally introduced 4-6 friends to this game, only 1 of them has stuck around, and all of them said that the game was fun but the grind was too harsh. That is to say that the grind that rivals Korean MMOs is what drove them away. Not buggy game mechanics, not OP weapons or builds, but the grind. I'm also positive that I'm not the only one who has seen this happen.

the purpose of a free player in a free to play game is to provide population, opponents to play against and allies to play with. If you drive away free players with a harsh grind you lose pop. It is even worse if it seems like you are actually punishing them for being a free player, which in my opinion this game does. This isn't about if you can manage to pull 200k in a good match with your clan, its about if a free player who has just joined will feel like he should keep playing, and right now most don't.

Once again for you that want to spam this thread and continue to fly of topic.... this sums up the over all concern needed to be addressed to start the path back to a healthy player base that grows.... and wants to spend money to support PGI

[Mothykins]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

I never said you were bad. Though I did see you suicide spidering =D MOAR SPIDER.

That said, im not great either. I just read the forums, smurfys, and the patch notes, and play accordingly.

And its not a vendetta, its just simply I have alot to say about this perticular topic and alot of people replying to me. As for my use of time....I guess I could be in game getting LRMed during the challenge....but really I have nothing better to do than listen to Nardcore records, drink, and argue with you knuckleheads.

I sincerely apologize if I come off as condescending. Its just the way I am. Its like the guy who got all chest puffy about his veteranism...

I read SLA Marshal and Matt Ridgeways books on Korea...interestingly enough, they never complained about things being too difficult. So im pretty sure things being difficult in a video game, is lulz.

Its simply a case of, are you enjoying yourself? If youre not. Fair enough. Im not telling you to stop posting im just disagreeing with you. Im enjoying myself. For free. Its pretty awesome.

Generally I pay for things I enjoy. But because pirates, and reasons...theres Free to Play that I can take advantage of.

The spider thing was me being choked with earnings. Things easy to rack up good damage in and splat early, while not completely screwing your team. Then on to the next game.

Now its better to just not, which is pretty great, actually. Done 120K on a loss.


But yeah. I'm exhausted on this topic, though I would appreciate more constructive ideas for helping rather than back and forth "NO MORE" "YES MORE." I still think stock Matches would be great for allowing people to play through the basics and make some of the grind "go away" without actually making it vanish.

[Bront]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Only if youre moving, if youre not in momentum, youre not getting the skill to proc for you. Rotating doesnt do it.

Why the heck would you stop moving? That's a great way to die.

[KraftySOT]

Youll hear no complaints from me or arguments about stock matches, and new ideas.

But to be fair, this entire post was just "I WANT MORE CBILLS" until I came along and said "YOU CAN GET MORE CBILLS NOW"

No one was talking about the specifics. No one was talking about how flanking applies everywhere, hit and run is kind of not really rewarding you for that, LRMs biting off Flanking, that theres no rewards for being a tanky assault.

Its not finished yet clearly.

But all of you whining, oh my god my cbills are nerfed....youre doing it wrong.

And im not saying play the way I want to play...I dont want to play this way either. You think I WANT to spend 30 minutes a day running around in a Raven tagging and narcing everything for 300k?

NO.

But its what I gotta do to be spacerich.

So if you dont come along with me, thats your own problem. You cant sit there and whine about the cards you were dealt. They were dealt. Deal with it. Adapt or stfu. The only thing standing between you and MOAR CBILLS is you.

Bront, on 26 October 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Why the heck would you stop moving? That's a great way to die.

Depends on the mech and loadout. LRM boat im not gonna move around. Snipers im not doing alot of moving. Really its brawlers and little snipers that need to do that.

Theres an occassional moment in some maps where youre trying to turn without anchor turn up a platform or something at an angle and you just dont have the turn radius to make it without slowing down.

But turn radius is a DOA skill. The times it matters are rare, and the times where its the deciding factor in a win or loss are non existant.

[Deathlike]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Then why were there LRMaggedons, PPC holocausts, and AC2 epidemics.

That's on PGI. It still is.

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Youre full of it.

Touche.

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The reason those things happened, is because game mechanics made it SO OBVIOUSLY EASY to "do well" using those things, that EVERYONE skilled or unskilled, was using them and ruining others experience.

No... see, this thing called "balance" is not in the players hands. The players use whatever they can that best fits the current circumstances... unless you don't know any better.

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Its so blatantly obvious, yet you seem to miss it. Loadouts are everything. A bad loadout is a bad mech. Period. This is why theres ghost heat, guass charge up and limits, ac2 rof limits, etc.

Giving a newbie a missile mech, but not being able to properly explain ECM, TAG, and a host of other interactions with this game... makes life tough... especially when someone has to explain to the newbie about the XL engine in the Trial Stalker Champion build. But hey, they'll know it in their first game... after being sidecored a number of times.

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It wasnt because a few skilled people picked up these things. Its because everyone and their uncle was.

Have skills ever been nerfed?

Nope?

Yet everything else has at some point? Weird.

There's a reason why PPCs are not taken as much as they have before, and only used under limited circumstances these days. But hey, ignore the laservomit+Gauss that is fielded all over the place.

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Must be because its so OP to elite/master? Nope. Its because its a tiny, tiny advantage.

I'm sure the Lords will chime in on this hilarious declaration.

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Despite what some people say, this game is so far from Pay to Win its starting its own catagory of F2P games (though maybe not a moniker we want).

Unless you WANT things to become pay to win, youre always going to have a neutered basically useless skill tree. Because PGI doesnt want people dropping 400 dollars, and annihilating everything in sight without any skill or much time in game.

They want things to be "end game" and they want it to take a little while to get there, and they really, really really go out of their way to make sure you cant pay to win.

I've said nothing of P2W. It's a lot of grinding you have to do even get "on par" with the "less than casual players". Once that grind is over (getting all the weapons, modules, engines... stuff that you'll need basically), the grind is minimized. Generally speaking, even w/o CW, the grind for the "stuff people really want" is long process, unless you shell out some money to ease the pain. That is the reality we have here.

[KraftySOT]

Deathlike, on 26 October 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

That's on PGI. It still is.

I'm sure the Lords will chime in on this hilarious declaration.



I've said nothing of P2W. It's a lot of grinding you have to do even get "on par" with the "less than casual players". Once that grind is over (getting all the weapons, modules, engines... stuff that you'll need basically), the grind is minimized. Generally speaking, even w/o CW, the grind for the "stuff people really want" is long process, unless you shell out some money to ease the pain. That is the reality we have here.

And PGI isnt going to suddenly "get better". You gotta deal with that.

The lords arent always right either.

And lastly, the opposite of a long grind, is pay to win. Its one or the other. Do you want a longer grind, or do you want pay to win. Those are the two business models PGI can choose from. They arent suddenly going to change, and they said back from the Kickstarter, they WONT be pay to win.

So if you want to collect em all. Your grind is super long.

If you want to just get into something good you enjoy. Your grind is really short.

[RalphVargr]

I think rewarding good play is a good thing.

I think cutting the legs out from under new players is a bad thing. They need better incentives to continue. Reducing C-Bill earnings and XP for the low end is not the way to motivate them. They did not enlist, or get drafted. They can quit.

[KraftySOT]

And say with the TImber or Doomcrow or Direwhale...unmastered, just basic, youre still better than the other 40 something mechs, even when those mechs, are mastered.

And when a Timber basic, goes up against a Timber mastered, with the same loadout, the benefit the mastered has is minimal. Its DPS is only slightly, slightly, higher. Every other factor is minimal.

However, and what youre probably honing in on if you think mastering matters, is when youre completely outclassed. Say a Raven 3L in a pug game. Youre dead meat walking. The benefits from all the skills together, will make your life considerably easier, as it stacks with what a Raven is going to be doing.

As you top out in the tier 1 and clan mechs...they dont make nearly as much of a difference, because youre already better than everything else out there.

Quirks will throw all of this for a loop, but as of 10/26, this is the truth.

Edited by KraftySOT, 26 October 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[Mr Beefy]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

And that is why you fail.

This game does not exist in a vacuum, despite your point of view being firmly lodged there. This isnt even PGIs business plan. They didnt invent it.

Basically what youre saying is that you dont care about how other planes fly, you only care that your brick isnt flying.

Maybe if you DID care about what other games do, youd understand why they do those things, and why those things are, or arent, done here.




You seem to have missed all my posts for the past week.

http://mwomercs.com/...40#entry3842540

I think you have a very twisted view on how the F2P games should work, vs how they do. A bad model doesn't justify or change the fact that BOTH are in fact bad models. I am sorry to have to break it to your fantasy land opinion that PGI can only do pay to win or the painful grind and that there is no in between the two.

Back to the Point, and moving on here... Please don't ask him to explain his vast and great argument again, there is not even on point that is on topic here let alone a fix to the core problem of a very painful Grind, and the problems it is and will continue to cause in this player base and in game experience.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 26 October 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Mr Beefy, on 26 October 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

I think you have a very twisted view on how the F2P games should work, vs how they do. A bad model doesn't justify or change the fact that BOTH are in fact bad models.

Back to the Point, and moving on here... Please don't ask him to explain his vast and great argument again, there is note even on point that is on topic here let alone a fix to the core problem of a very painful Grind, and the problems it is and will continue to cause in this player base and in game experience.

All free to play is bad.

This game will never, ever, not be free to play.

You keep ignoring basic facts. Youre not going to get MOAR CBILLS!!! You have what they want you to have based on their internal charts.

Remember Tuesday afternoon, when Russ posted that they were thinking of lowering cbills, then waited 24 hours, posted that they were with 5-10% of what they had before, posted that was very near what they wanted, and then gave some tweaks to the system? Thats because they have internal projections that show them how many people buy mc when cbill output is X, Y, and Z and theyre doing whats in their best interest, not yours.

It WILL continue to change. Fact of games like this. Change is the lore of life here. But, youll never be making MOAR CBILLS!!!! unless you maximize whatever the current system is to its full benefit.

Its not going to hurt PGI if they dont throw more cbills at us. Its not. I dont care if you think that these bad decisions are going to tank this and doom it because you and a few forum people are upset about it....its not. Whales will still buy mech packs and this will still be here.

But the SYSTEM to make cbills, that will change. And you need to change with it. Thats what ive been saying for two hours now.

You are the problem.

If you dont adapt to the new system, which lets you MAKE MOAR CBILLS than ever before...thats your fault. Thats your problem. Youre not going to ever change this game, or any games, ENTIRE BUSINESS MODEL that theyve been with for years, because you think the grnd is too long, because you cant decide what mechs you want or your esoteric ramblings about how it hurts new players.

Youre a peon. A customer. A widget.

Learn the new system. Get space rich. Thats all ive got to say on the matter anymore.

I just like this game, I like Battletech, I like the underdog, and I want to see you knuckleheads get spacerich too.

But for the love of god the grind is at a minimum, 30% shorter no matter what your goal is, if youd just bloody well sack up and get in thar. Peace and cbills be with you my hard headed friend.

Edited by KraftySOT, 26 October 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[Solidussnake]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...40#entry3842540

LoL "play like PGI expects you to or never make money"

What a useless guide. Who wants to be forced to play the game the way PGI wants us to.

Sorry but I play a game to have fun. Not be told how to play it.

I'm the type of light pilot who goes out does 600 damage 2 ~ 4 kills , by flanking and attacking the enemy by myself. By hunting down the heavy mechs they are using as LRM boats. That should be a big pay out as well. But its not. So how does that make any sense? O wait it doesn't.

Edited by Solidussnake, 26 October 2014 - 02:34 PM.