45 replies to this topic

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

too complicated. Clan for clan machines, IS for IS machines, no hybrid freak mechs

Thats my thoughts

[Grantham Besat]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

So you want the game to be tag the legs and shoot it with LRMS? Thats the way the meta sounds now...just leg everything....and I thought that kinda went away in MW4....lol...

I dont use tag or lrms except on 3 mechs and only 1 is a boat. I also very rarely brawl. What I do is actully get the lance bonuses and the flanking bonuses etc while hitting people with direct fire weapona in a group. I do just fine useing the meta game which as near as I can tell is not brawling nor lrms but something that resembles real tactics its shocking.

[Grantham Besat]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

So you want the game to be tag the legs and shoot it with LRMS? Thats the way the meta sounds now...just leg everything....and I thought that kinda went away in MW4....lol...

I dont use tag or lrms except on 3 mechs and only 1 is a boat. I also very rarely brawl. What I do is actully get the lance bonuses and the flanking bonuses etc while hitting people with direct fire weapona in a group. I do just fine useing the meta game which as near as I can tell is not brawling nor lrms but something that resembles real tactics its shocking.

[Willard Phule]

DaZur, on 26 October 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

Okay... Here's a thought.

Remember the good ol days of MW3/4 when field salvage was added to your coffer and became part of your inventory?

Hows this for a salvage incentive for players: When you defeat a player, any weapon that is not presently owned by you and not destroyed as a result of the battle... now belongs to you.

Here's the kicker... You can mount it on your mech (Yes, IS can mount Clan tech). BUT... When if/when you die to someone who doesn't own this weapon, you lose it and they gain it... just like you did...

This would allow pilots access to some of the Clan tech, and higher level IS tech without the cost and would incentify playing smart and would reward tactical destruction of ones enemy in hopes of pilfering their tech.

In short... You keep what you kill. Until someone kills you.

Thoughts?

Although I like the idea, you know it'll never happen.

One of the primary reasons is that it will go both ways. I'd MUCH rather have an IS UAC5 than a CUAC5 and would be MORE than happy to mount them on my DW. Or IS AC10s, AC20s or LRMs that come out in a swarm as opposed to this spaztic vomit we've got.

Nah, I don't see it happening.....but I'd like it to.

[Livewyr]

I love the idea of salvaged weapons and equipment...always have. (One of my favorite aspects of playing the campaigns in previous MW titles.)

I think that would be pretty awesome, but I think it would also break the economy as they are trying to build it. (Imagine acquiring a Gauss Rifle that you did not want to keep... that's 300k Cbills alone upon sale.

Also, as others have mentioned, crosstech would be broken. Completely customizable IS mechs with clan weapons would be broken, and what would be arguably worse is the PPFLD IS ACs on clan mechs.. It would break the balancing philosophy between clans and IS. (IS weapons are heavier and generally inferior, in exchange for clan mechs being remarkably un-customizable. (Yes, clan mechs can switch around their hardpoints which makes it cheaper to load whatever you want for the mission...but there are also a lot fewer Omnimech options than there are IS battlemechs.)

Imagine the quickdraw hero mounting two Clan UAC20s. (which is the same weight as the Dual AC10s the hero comes with) and ALSO be able to move its arms because it does not have the LAA AC restriction that omnis do.


I would love the lore and fluff of salvage, I just don't think it would work out in this "economy." If someone wants to make a good solution, I am ALL ears.
Mix-tech would be very. very bad.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 26 October 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

Okay... Here's a thought.

Remember the good ol days of MW3/4 when field salvage was added to your coffer and became part of your inventory?

Hows this for a salvage incentive for players: When you defeat a player, any weapon that is not presently owned by you and not destroyed as a result of the battle... now belongs to you.

Here's the kicker... You can mount it on your mech (Yes, IS can mount Clan tech). BUT... When if/when you die to someone who doesn't own this weapon, you lose it and they gain it... just like you did...

This would allow pilots access to some of the Clan tech, and higher level IS tech without the cost and would incentify playing smart and would reward tactical destruction of ones enemy in hopes of pilfering their tech.

In short... You keep what you kill. Until someone kills you.

Thoughts?

You watched that second Riddick movie didn't you?

[DaZur]

Mercules, on 26 October 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

No....

If you don't understand why it is bad to arm IS mechs with Clan systems then I don't know what I can say to enlighten you. I know you know better than this DaZur.

What can I say... I watched my Packers get their arse handed to them and was feeling particularly out of touch with reality?

slide, on 26 October 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

I understood what you propose. It would only work if there is a strict limit to how many of said salvaged weapon you can own.

Oh, absolutely... There would be no stock piling. It would be a singular instance...

[GreyNovember]

Suppose you only salvaged one weapon per game, and higher cost items have a much lower chance of being the item you get. A Drop rate, essentially, that only happens when you win, and let's negate the concept of losing the part.

I imagine this ending up as getting a Clan medium laser or an IS Flamer every so often, with a surprise gauss/AC20 every 20-ish games. The veteran shrugs off the extra c bills, and the new player is happy that he was rewarded for contributing to a win.

Shouldn't smash the C Bill earnings open TOO Bad if you decide to sell it, and you can't mix tech.

Sound good?

[ShinVector]

Hmmmm... Got me thinking.... Shouldn't Clan mech you killed give higher payouts... Much higher versus IS tech ???
PGI MAKE IT SO !!

IS killing Clan mech gives 50% more salvage bonus !!
I don't see this as a balance issue.

[Ultimax]

I vote no, because what holds back all of the not top 3 clan mechs is their inherent locked design elements.

If you want to talk about allowing omni-pod restrctions of locked items going bye bye, so a 70 ton Summoner can mount more than a laughable 20 tons worth of weapons then this might be a better conversation.



The flipside is Clan access to some of the superior IS weapons, like Autocannons.

I don't think we really want Dire Wolves running around with 4x IS AC 10s or 5x IS UAC 5s or 2x IS AC 20s + 2x PPCs.

My TBR's Laser Alpha is right around 42 points of heat.

That build handles it, with 20+ heatsinks.

Firing 3x IS PPCs = 42 heat, even with Ghost Heat.

There are a lot of reasons why cross-tech or tech swapping would be a very bad idea.



I also feel this dilutes the feel of each faction, making them effectively the same or similar.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 October 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[DocBach]

Mystere, on 26 October 2014 - 11:35 PM, said:

Considering that the goal is 1 vs. 1 balance, I have to give this one a big fat No!

Now if Clan tech was inline with BT, then you have a deal.

Clan Mechs still cost more cbills -- stuff worth more that's salvaged should still be sold for more than stuff that was worth less and salvaged.

[Tezcatli]

I suggested in another thread. To preserve the balance a bit, using enemy equipment requires modules, so that you won't see pure clan tech on IS or vice versa and it forces a trade of in modules. As if the modules are adapting the tech to your system. But I think if we do salvage it should only be rewarded in CW matches. And I think it would be interesting if we could have a player economy where Salvaged items can be sold. So you can only sell what you salvage.

Edited by Tezcatli, 27 October 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 27 October 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Clan Mechs still cost more cbills -- stuff worth more that's salvaged should still be sold for more than stuff that was worth less and salvaged.

Except that I am also starting to question that price variance given the explicitly stated 1 vs.1 balance objective.

[DocBach]

Mystere, on 27 October 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Except that I am also starting to question that price variance given the explicitly stated 1 vs.1 balance objective.

you can question it all you want, but clan tech costs more.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gaining and losing weapons and tech that regularly would get REALLY confusing. I know I would constantly be reaching for equipment I thought I had, when really I lost it in a match somewhere else.

Plus, mechlab maintenance on a mech would be a pain. If I was in a group, and they had to wait for me every match I died to rebuild a mech (because I lost equip), it would get really cumbersome.

Not to mention, I could see this jacking up the economy a bit.

As it is right now, there is a salvage C-Bill bonus. I am assuming it is a "Hey, I got salvage, I turned it around and sold it, this is the amount of C-Bills it was worth". I think that is the way it needs to be.

Technically without repair and rearm, we wouldn't have to worry about duplicating items. We could have the person who died keep their inventory, while the person who did the killing could take a duplicate from the defeated mech. It wouldn't really feel like salvage at that point though.

I don't know, I think what we have now might be the only thing that really works at this point.

[DaZur]

Okay... Clearly I was approaching this with a very myopic intent of invigorating some sense of salvage and a limited application mixed-tech.

After being beat about the face and neck... I see the error of my ways. I'll return to grey-knighting and leave game enhancement to folks who know better.

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 27 October 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

you can question it all you want, but clan tech costs more.

Yes it costs more, but that was because on TT The Clan Weapons were leagues better than IS. and Pricing was for Inner sphere purposes. The Clans only worried about the resources used to build a mech not the Kerensky value (clan equivalent to C-Bills). No Clanner is concerned with money... outside of the Diamond Sharks.

[Almond Brown]

DaZur, on 26 October 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

You say that like it would be a bad thing?

You guys are getting hung up on perceived imbalances...

It's a temporary perk that if the community metrics is correct one has a 50/50 chance of losing it the next time they step on the battlefield...

Those odds could be very easily increased to "almost never lose a very expensive item". Play PUG and get a Clan AC20/UAC20, 960k - 1.2 million. Match ends, remove said very expensive item. Repeat. Then when the "boys" get together, load those weapons, play on Comms use FREE expensive toys where odds are 80-20 or maybe 70-30 to lose it/them.

Or Sell.

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 October 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[Almond Brown]

DaZur, on 27 October 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

What can I say... I watched my Packers get their arse handed to them and was feeling particularly out of touch with reality?

Oh, absolutely... There would be no stock piling. It would be a singular instance...

How do you prevent that? If I win a CAC20, and it doesn't fit on any Mechs I own, what then? I would be forced to Sell? Or do I hang on to it until I get a Mech that can handle it? It gets all kinds of weird really fast.

[Metus regem]

DocBach, on 27 October 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

you can question it all you want, but clan tech costs more.

And that is fair, but is the extra cost for the equipment justified with just the lower weight and smaller space?

The way that the maps work here, the Range advantage is small (60m for optimal range difference between the cUAC 5 and IS-UAC 5), or the map negates it almost completely. I said almost, there are a couple of maps where the range can come into play, Alpine and the desert being the two that I can think of. Most of the other maps are done at knife fight ranges anyways, so then comes the damage vs. heat argument, we'll use the cERML and the IS-ML for this example...

cERML: 7 damage for 6 heat over a 1.25 second burn time
IS-ML: 5 damage for 4 heat over a 1 second burn tme.

So the clan laser is seeing 20% more damage for 50% more heat done over a 25% longer burn time, at yes almost 100% more range. How ever I did mention that most fights take place at knife fight ranges anyways, due to how the maps are laid out.

When it comes to the mechs, I am fine with the extra cost being tied to 7 slot ES, 7 slot FF, 2 slot DHS, 10 slot XL engines, and most of the equipment as well, but on the weapons I'm not sure the extra cost is justified right now.

That being said, I'd sell all my cERPPC's for IS normal PPC's in a heart beat, if I am stuck doing no more than 10 pinpoint with them, than I'd like to be doing that for only 10 heat, even with the minimum ranges on it.