14 replies to this topic

[Jeffrey Wilder]

I understand ELO and MM grouping have always been a hot topic. As we all understand there might never be a solution to ELO and MM balance.

I notice that ELO and imbalance seem to grow worse over time (instead of better). What if we break that cycle?

Do a ELO reset say once in a month or two? Archive your past records in a regular interval under your personal profile that you can retrieve.

You can even use that past ELO records to figure how you have been doing over time. The reset will at least give everybody a new start on a regular intervals and prevent people from getting 'stuck' at certain ELO when new players join.

This combine with small quirks here and there should make the situation better.

[The Boz]

Elo can only be expected to work in a non-1v1 environment given huge (astronomically so, with 24 players involved) number of games. It is near-meaningless in MWO. Making it reset every month would make it even more useless.

Edited by The Boz, 04 November 2014 - 04:42 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Fix the elo issue by removing it.......

Maybe use player win rates or something.....lol.....that way truly good players who actually do really well and take the game seriously would be paired with other players of similar WR. The poor or new players would be together.......

Then, as a player progresses and improves maybe thier WR will to and they will be slowly bumped up the WR tree......

And heck, evne if you make a troll acct as a really good player to go back and troll the noobs, if you play well, you will slowly be moved up anyway....lol......

bad idea? maybe....but elo is obviously working well....

Make opponent teams paired up against similarly WR teams.....for group queue use the avg of the people in the group and thats what it tries to find.....maybe within 5-7% WR of each other....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 04 November 2014 - 04:45 AM.

[Evil Ed]

Ah, you mean like replacing Elo with.... Elo?

Elo is fine and doing it's best to produce matches between equally skilled players. The problem is that matches in this game is to consider as an unstable system, even a match with players within a very tight skill-bracket is likely to end with a stomp because when one team gets the upper hand the snowball is rolling and very difficult to stop. To get every match end in a nail-biter we would have to add PvE-elements helping the losing team or other artificial balancing mechanics.

[Willard Phule]

Evil Ed, on 04 November 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Elo is fine and doing it's best to produce matches between equally skilled players. The problem is that matches in this game is to consider as an unstable system, even a match with players within a very tight skill-bracket is likely to end with a stomp because when one team gets the upper hand the snowball is rolling and very difficult to stop. To get every match end in a nail-biter we would have to add PvE-elements helping the losing team or other artificial balancing mechanics.

(I highlighted the important part)

I'm glad if it's working like that in the Group queue but it is absolutely NOT working like that in the Solo queue. Hell, it CAN'T work like that....not the way the matchmaker was redesigned.

The solo queue tries it's level best to make sure that both teams have an equal "average" Elo after it applies the 3/3/3/3 filter. It does that by padding each team with lower Elo players to balance the higher ones. That's why you end up with people asking questions like "how to move forward?" or "what means lock targets?" frequently. Or..and this is my favorite.."lrms here, plz lock for me."

The solo queue is the "training ground" that PGI is unable or unwilling to provide for new players to learn the game. They're tossed straight into general population and expected to ragequit and leave the game (after they've dropped a few bucks into PGI's coffers, though).

It is what it is, man. If you're going to play in the solo queue, you need to learn how to outnoob the noobs.

Edited by Willard Phule, 04 November 2014 - 05:02 AM.

[Targetloc]

The only way to 'fix' Elo is to give whole hell of a lot of people a basic education in statistics.

[Duke Nedo]

Imo guild-elo would work fine, that's almost like 1v1 if the guild-teams hold a somewhat consistent quality.

Individual ELO in 12v12 is incredibly diluted though....

If the new reward-scoring function pans out alright, perhaps average reward would be a better measure?

[Chrithu]

Going 12v12 instead 8v8 with the maps and gamemodes we have actually is the true root of evil here. More really isn't better in the case of MWO.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Evil Ed, on 04 November 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Ah, you mean like replacing Elo with.... Elo?

Elo is fine and doing it's best to produce matches between equally skilled players. The problem is that matches in this game is to consider as an unstable system, even a match with players within a very tight skill-bracket is likely to end with a stomp because when one team gets the upper hand the snowball is rolling and very difficult to stop. To get every match end in a nail-biter we would have to add PvE-elements helping the losing team or other artificial balancing mechanics.

Naw, remove elo and w/e numbers it wants to give us..use solely the win rate.....dont place 80% with 30% just to...average it out....

Put all the 30-36% WL players with and against other 30-36% WL players....place 70-80% WL players with and against other 70-80% WL players.......then everyone in the match is of equal, or similar skill and ability...otherwise htey wouldnt have that kind of WL.

And sure as hell, it shouldnt magically apply a middle of the road elo rating to us just because we are now done with our 25 cadet matches.....

[Blakkstar]

Evil Ed, on 04 November 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Ah, you mean like replacing Elo with.... Elo?

Elo is fine and doing it's best to produce matches between equally skilled players. The problem is that matches in this game is to consider as an unstable system, even a match with players within a very tight skill-bracket is likely to end with a stomp because when one team gets the upper hand the snowball is rolling and very difficult to stop. To get every match end in a nail-biter we would have to add PvE-elements helping the losing team or other artificial balancing mechanics.

Your team gets a Blue Shell after 6 mechs are destroyed.

The problem is that players believe every game that ends in a stomp was somehow imbalanced even if it wasn't, because we can't see stats. But it you start showing player stats before matches you start to have problems with people quitting the match or creating self-fulfilling prophecies with their gameplay because they're going to lose anyways because they think the game is rigged against their side.

At some point everybody just has to get past the crusading idealism that every match must be perfectly balanced. It's not going to happen in this game, nor any other MMO. Feast on the advantageous games, roll with the bad ones. When you're playing hundreds or thousands of games, it's all going to even out over time and you'll end up more or less where you should be with your stats and ELO based on your skill.

Edited by Blakkstar, 04 November 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[Abisha]

Jeffrey Wilder, on 04 November 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

I understand ELO and MM grouping have always been a hot topic. As we all understand there might never be a solution to ELO and MM balance.

I notice that ELO and imbalance seem to grow worse over time (instead of better). What if we break that cycle?

Do a ELO reset say once in a month or two? Archive your past records in a regular interval under your personal profile that you can retrieve.

You can even use that past ELO records to figure how you have been doing over time. The reset will at least give everybody a new start on a regular intervals and prevent people from getting 'stuck' at certain ELO when new players join.

This combine with small quirks here and there should make the situation better.

I don't wanna get my Elo reset so it suits need of others.
i worked hard to get a great kill death rate.
so no this is not a good idea or even close to a solution.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Abisha, on 04 November 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

I don't wanna get my Elo reset so it suits need of others.
i worked hard to get a great kill death rate.
so no this is not a good idea or even close to a solution.

Trust me, MM will even it out for you.

[FupDup]

One thing that could be done is to use a team's median Elo instead of average. A typical average is very vulnerable to outliers from both the high end and low end, which drags the whole team's Elo up or down with it.

[RalphVargr]

Blakkstar, on 04 November 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

. But it you start showing player stats before matches you start to have problems with people quitting the match or creating self-fulfilling prophecies with their gameplay because they're going to lose anyways because they think the game is rigged against their side.

This happened with online poker, and World Of Warplanes.

[nehebkau]

ELO will work if drop weight is factored into the ELO balancing ... meaning Players with the same ELO playing different chassis will have a different effect on the game. You can't consider a player with a high elo playing a locust as the same as a high elo player in a dwf. Though their actual ELO values in those mechs may be the same one has a greater chance (dwf) of carrying the match than the other (LCT).

Imagine a balancing game where one sides highest ELO players are all in lights and the other teams highest ELO players are all in assaults -- which do you think will have the advantage? How about if you change it more so that the team whose highest ELO players are in lights have their lowest ELO players in assaults. The team whose highest ELO players are in assaults have their lowest ELO players in lights...

Do you see where I am going?

Edited by nehebkau, 04 November 2014 - 07:58 AM.