53 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Xoco, on 08 November 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, why are there no melee weapons in MW universe? (Battletech universe?)

Don't mistake MWO for a complete and accurate representation of the BattleTech universe. The fact that there's no melee in MWO does not mean there's no melee in BTU; quite the opposite.

Any 'mech in BT can kick and charge.
Any 'mech with arms can punch and push.
Any 'mech with hands can punch better and use improvised melee weapons.
Any 'mech with actual melee weapons will punch as hard as it kicks.
Any 'mech with jump jets can do Death From Above attacks.

A simple punch does (tonnage / 10) damage - 2 points from a Commando, 10 points from an Atlas.
A simple kick does (tonnage / 5) damage - 5 points from a Commando, 20 points from an Atlas.
A punch with a melee weapons (axe, club, sword, ripped-off Commando arm) does as much damage as a kick (tonnage / 5).

A charge does ((attacker tonnage / 10) * hexes moved) damage to the target, and (target tonnage / 10) damage to the attacker.

A DFA does ((attacker tonnage / 10) * 3) damage to the target, and (target tonnage / 5) damage to the attackers legs.


As for implementing it into the game; just make it straight punches and kicks - press 'p' to punch, 'k' to kick - if it hits it does damage, if not, well too bad. I don't believe the programming is anything to write home about, the bulk of the time would probably have to be to get the animations in.

Xoco, on 08 November 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

Oh, and one more thing--are there such things as mechs on tank tracks/wheels?

No, a 'mech is a walking machine. There's plenty - and I do mean plenty - of tanks and wheeled vehicles though.

[QuantumButler]

stjobe, on 09 November 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Don't mistake MWO for a complete and accurate representation of the BattleTech universe. The fact that there's no melee in MWO does not mean there's no melee in BTU; quite the opposite.

Any 'mech in BT can kick and charge.
Any 'mech with arms can punch and push.
Any 'mech with hands can punch better and use improvised melee weapons.
Any 'mech with actual melee weapons will punch as hard as it kicks.
Any 'mech with jump jets can do Death From Above attacks.

A simple punch does (tonnage / 10) damage - 2 points from a Commando, 10 points from an Atlas.
A simple kick does (tonnage / 5) damage - 5 points from a Commando, 20 points from an Atlas.
A punch with a melee weapons (axe, club, sword, ripped-off Commando arm) does as much damage as a kick (tonnage / 5).

A charge does ((attacker tonnage / 10) * hexes moved) damage to the target, and (target tonnage / 10) damage to the attacker.

A DFA does ((attacker tonnage / 10) * 3) damage to the target, and (target tonnage / 5) damage to the attackers legs.


As for implementing it into the game; just make it straight punches and kicks - press 'p' to punch, 'k' to kick - if it hits it does damage, if not, well too bad. I don't believe the programming is anything to write home about, the bulk of the time would probably have to be to get the animations in.


No, a 'mech is a walking machine. There's plenty - and I do mean plenty - of tanks and wheeled vehicles though.

And then just make it so punching means you can't use weapons till the animation is over, or at least arm mounted weapons, and kicking makes you stop moving while you kick, can't punch if you don't have arm actuators, maybe hands give your punches abit more damage, can't kick if you've lost a leg, and then done, BAM, more fun and variety added to the game instantly, light mechs won't try to facehump assaults anymore for fear of getting kicked in the face, atlases with all their guns blown off are still a bit of a threat.

[The Wakelord]

wanderer, on 08 November 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

See above. If you can shoot someone with a gun, melee is literally the same code with a near 0-range "shot". That's all it is.

Not really an excuse.

That's only the case if "punch," "kick," and "swing" don't make the attacking mech move at all. Shooting a laser, ballistic or missile does not move your mech, only make an additional animation occur.* However, a punch requires the mech's arm (at minimum) to move to the location and leave a previous location. If a mech just literally moved its arm, people would complain it looked silly, so now a punch is a full body motion twisting the shoulder, hips, knee & foot.

Making each mech have these unique animation(s) would be a large undertaking and animation is a very time consuming process, which means during that time no mechs, no new maps, no fixing hit-boxes.

So yes, I imagine they code in these attacks, but it would be the animation that is 99% of the work, not creating the attacks to choose.




*Exception: missile bay doors for Catapult, which is a very small animation.

[QuantumButler]

The Wakelord, on 09 November 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

That's only the case if "punch," "kick," and "swing" don't make the attacking mech move at all. Shooting a laser, ballistic or missile does not move your mech, only make an additional animation occur.* However, a punch requires the mech's arm (at minimum) to move to the location and leave a previous location. If a mech just literally moved its arm, people would complain it looked silly, so now a punch is a full body motion twisting the shoulder, hips, knee & foot.

Making each mech have these unique animation(s) would be a large undertaking and animation is a very time consuming process, which means during that time no mechs, no new maps, no fixing hit-boxes.

So yes, I imagine they code in these attacks, but it would be the animation that is 99% of the work, not creating the attacks to choose.




*Exception: missile bay doors for Catapult, which is a very small animation.

They don't fix hit boxes anyway, and melee would be a rich enough addition to be worth the other sacrifices IMO.

[The Wakelord]

QuantumButler, on 09 November 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

They don't fix hit boxes anyway, and melee would be a rich enough addition to be worth the other sacrifices IMO.

I think I'd prefer 9 months of new mechs & maps myself.

I'd love melee (I'd totally use the hatchetman with a huge engine) but not at the cost it would require.

[QuantumButler]

The Wakelord, on 09 November 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

I think I'd prefer 9 months of new mechs & maps myself.

I'd love melee (I'd totally use the hatchetman with a huge engine) but not at the cost it would require.

Right well, I'd rather see melee myself, hopefully Heavy Gear Assault turns out to be a good game to satisfy my melee robot desires.

[Bhael Fire]

FupDup, on 08 November 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

There are likely a number of reasons why.

One of these is animation -- Our big and bulky feeling giant robots would probably look completely stupid if they tried to punch each other or hit people with their sword. Our mechs are not aesthetically designed to be very poseable or flexible in the majority of cases, they are closer to walking tanks than anything. They tend to have fairly rigid movements.

Exactly. The whole melee thing in BT was largely a relic from anime-inspired mecha/robot fiction. MWO is more about mechanized armored combat more along the lines of "big walking tanks", as opposed to "big stompy robots".

[Xoco]

kf envy, on 08 November 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

well for the clans physical attacks violate zellbrigen. an you know how the clans have an honor system ware IS does not.

Sorry, but what's the..erm..zellbrigen?

Hans Von Lohman, on 08 November 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

Hot damn, that pic is hot. I would still rather shoot the bugger, but it's good to know the board game version has it.

9erRed, on 08 November 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

~ There was also some discussions about the Mech squat mechanic (kneeling down) being brought into the equation. An attempt to 'brace' for impact during a dedicated 'charge'. But also allowing for a lower profile stance as a by-product of the movement.

That would look so awesome. I would love to kneel down before sniping people (or pop out from a building and fire a few rounds before dodging back down). It would look SO AWESOME! Not that it would matter much, I guess...my choice mech so far is kinda tiny and can't really peak over things, haha.

----------------------
With that said, I have 2 more question. (1 is kinda not lore-related, but meh..might as well)
1) Is there any relationship between Battletech and Macross? I recall hearing them being mentioned side by side, but there doesn't seem to be any kind of aliens in Mech Warrior.

2) What is the arm lock thing in the game? I saw the option, but have no idea what it does.

[F4T 4L]

wanderer, on 08 November 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

See above. If you can shoot someone with a gun, melee is literally the same code with a near 0-range "shot". That's all it is.

Not really an excuse.

Implemented this way melee would look and feel super cheesy. For melee to work well the game would need a full-blown beat-em-up sub-system, a boat load of animations per mech, and supporting forward and inverse kinematics code.

I suspect that the assessment has been made that it's just too much work, to do it well.

[QuantumButler]

F4T 4L, on 09 November 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Implemented this way melee would look and feel super cheesy. For melee to work well the game would need a full-blown beat-em-up sub-system, a boat load of animations per mech, and supporting forward and inverse kinematics code.

I suspect that the assessment has been made that it's just too much work, to do it well.

Not really, you just need competent animations.

[Impyrium]

The animations alone would make such a task incredibly daunting. Handling melee as just a short range weapon... probably wouldn't work as well as people think. That's what they did in MW4, and that was hardly accurate or interesting.

And from my own observations of the MWO models, I'm not even convinced they have the capacity to animate beyond their static 'at arms' stance. In fact, many of the arm joints on 'Mechs don't even look like they could rotate upwards. And... well, can you imagine a Dire Wolf or Timber Wolf trying to punch? I don't see it happening.

[QuantumButler]

AUSwarrior24, on 09 November 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

The animations alone would make such a task incredibly daunting. Handling melee as just a short range weapon... probably wouldn't work as well as people think. That's what they did in MW4, and that was hardly accurate or interesting.

And from my own observations of the MWO models, I'm not even convinced they have the capacity to animate beyond their static 'at arms' stance. In fact, many of the arm joints on 'Mechs don't even look like they could rotate upwards. And... well, can you imagine a Dire Wolf or Timber Wolf trying to punch? I don't see it happening.

Simple, only mechs with hands can punch.

[Willard Phule]

kf envy, on 08 November 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

well for the clans physical attacks violate zellbrigen. an you know how the clans have an honor system ware IS does not.

Depending on the Clan, depending on aherence to Zellbrigen and depending on the situations. Some Clans will NEVER use physical attacks, others will use charges and kicks.

As for the OP's original question, a lot of it has to do with "knockdown" and you know we'll NEVER see that happen again.

Physical attacks are punch, kick, charge, melee weapon and DFA. All of these attacks, especially kick and DFA, commonly cause the other mech to make a piloting check or fall down, depending on the amount of damage done and/or critical damage.
Melee weapons are commonly axes or hatchets, but clubs, maces, swords and other assorted handheld weaponry can be manufactured. The damage is a fraction of the mech's tonnage, with tweaks given one way or the other. Axe is baseline, other weapons might be harder to hit but does more damage or easier to hit but does less damage.

Personally, I'd like to see them open up collision damage between legs and upper bodies. Those two sections of mechs rarely come into contact anyway. This would at least enable Death From Above and would absolutely change the tenor of the game. Highlanders would, all of a sudden, become truly nasty up close (one of their tweaks SHOULD be reduced jumping damage since the description in the manual specifically describes the legs being made sturdier due to "Highlander Burials.").

It also gives those MW:O pilots that have mastered the art of manuevering around with Jump Jets an additional weapon at their disposal....and this is one that can't be tweaked, nerfed or given Ghost Heat. You're either good enough to hit the other guy with your feet while in the air or you aren't. If you're not, odds are pretty good you're going to die before you connect anyway.

[Sjorpha]

I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, but having punches in game would be awesome. Not least for IS vs Clan balance, where many more IS mechs would be suitable for melee combat.

I would make it so that there is only punches, no kicks, and only mechs with hand actuators or special melee weapons could do it. That would create some variety between mechs, where some could do melee attacks and some not.

Lights being too short for assaults to punch them? Well, lights need some advantages anyways, so IMO that would be fine.

The animation could be fairly simple, we're talking about a big clunky machine after all, just a simple combination of the torso twisting and the arm shooting forward. Like a classing tight bodyshot hook or jab without the footwork.

Also make it a bit slow and mechanically ka-chunky, like the power fist in fallout new vegas. Make it do good damage, but also a little damage to your own arm so has to be used with some care.

For starters I'm going to use that Zeus with the 3 missile right arm and 3 ASRM6 unloaded point blank to pretend I have a melee weapon Sure hope those tubes are grouped as tightly as they look on the concept art...

Edited by Sjorpha, 09 November 2014 - 04:07 AM.

[Willard Phule]

AUSwarrior24, on 09 November 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

The animations alone would make such a task incredibly daunting. Handling melee as just a short range weapon... probably wouldn't work as well as people think. That's what they did in MW4, and that was hardly accurate or interesting.

And from my own observations of the MWO models, I'm not even convinced they have the capacity to animate beyond their static 'at arms' stance. In fact, many of the arm joints on 'Mechs don't even look like they could rotate upwards. And... well, can you imagine a Dire Wolf or Timber Wolf trying to punch? I don't see it happening.

Most Omnimechs were designed without hands, therefore precluding them from physical attacks unless they want to chance destroying whatever's in that arm.

I mean, that's sort of the thing. Zellbrigen came before the Omnimechs. By the time Clan Coyote invented the Omni technology, the Clan rules of honor had been around for a while. They never even really thought about physical attacks when designing their mechs. Only freeborn mechwarriors and bandits resort to those tactics, anyway.

Still, that never stopped them from DFA or Charge......and the occasional kick. But, again, it kind of depends on the situation. Clan Smoke Jaguar would NEVER resort to such attacks. Clan Ghost Bear would never initiate a physical conflict but if the other guy swings first.....well, they DO tend to like their big, bear-like mechs. Mass times acceleration equals "wrong place, wrong time." Clan Derp Chicke...er...Jade Falcon really does like to land on people's heads.

Still, I doubt you'll ever see it implemented. I'm not sure the Cryengine even supports it but if it did, odds are fairly good that PGI hasn't delved in that direction much. The sheer enormity of the task of coming up with code that doesn't exist for an action that has never been done on a game engine the programmers barely understand is pretty overwhelming.

Sjorpha, on 09 November 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, but having punches in game would be awesome. Not least for IS vs Clan balance, where many more IS mechs would be suitable for melee combat.

I would make it so that there is only punches, no kicks, and only mechs with hand actuators or special melee weapons could do it. That would create some variety between mechs, where some could do melee attacks and some not.

Lights being too short for assaults to punch them? Well, lights need some advantages anyways, so IMO that would be fine.

If you're going to allow one physical attack (the one that's the most noob-friendly, obviously), you're going to have to allow a balancing agent.

Bring in the DFA. I'd be MORE than happy to go physical in my JJ equipped TW against some goober in an Atlas trying to punch me. I'll GUARANTEE I'll be doing the Mexican Hat Dance on his face.

[Impyrium]

They're good points guys above, not sure why that didn't occur to me earlier. Though I somehow had in my head an image of a Stormcrow trying to slap my Firestarter

Well I suppose it could be added in somehow. Though the way I've come to see things, no matter how simple you might think something can be added in as a player, it's usually five times as complex. I doubt the engine could handle it, and I don't think PGI will explore it. But it's certainly one of those dream features that you'd always hope a MechWarrior game might have.

Edited by AUSwarrior24, 09 November 2014 - 04:05 AM.

[Willard Phule]

AUSwarrior24, on 09 November 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

They're good points guys above, not sure why that didn't occur to me earlier. Though I somehow had in my head an image of a Stormcrow trying to slap my Firestarter

Well I suppose it could be added in somehow. Though the way I've come to see things, no matter how simple you might think something can be added in as a player, it's usually five times as complex. I doubt the engine could handle it, and I don't think PGI will explore it. But it's certainly one of those dream features that you'd always hope a MechWarrior game might have.

The only two problems I can see with the mechanics of it are the speed that you can pull it off and the whole "can't use weapons prior to a physical attack" rule.

Both could be solved with a relatively slow "reload" time on physical attacks and the mechanic of no weapons can fire while the attack is being made, I guess.

The Charge and the DFA are the most dynamic physical attacks. MW3 didn't have punches and kicks (that I remember), but they DID have charge/knockdown and DFA damage. I remember nailing people with a CMG equipped jumping Adder. Laugh all you want but a 35 ton bowling ball hitting you in the chest/head at 160kph (we could modify engines then) will knock you down.

I may get this wrong, but the base damage for physical attacks is:

- Punch: 1 point of damage per 10 tons of attacking mech. Atlas punch = 10 points of damage.
- Kick: 1 point of damage per 5 tons of attacking mech. Atlas kick = 20 points of damage
- Charge: 1 point of damage per 10 tons of attacking mech, multiplied by speed (number of hexes travelled). Atlas charge at full speed = 50 points of damage (assuming it's moving in the 50-60kph range).
- DFA: Keep in mind both the attacker and target take damage. Target takes 1 point of damage per 5 tons of attacking mech, multiplied by 3. Attacker takes 1 point of damage per 5 tons of attacking mech applied to the legs.

A Nova pulling off a DFA on an Atlas would end up as 30 points to the Atlas, applied to the torsos, arms and head. 10 points of damage to the Nova's legs. The Nova pilot would have to make a piloting skill roll or fall down....but, since knockdown isn't an issue....

Other things like weapon attacks aren't worth going into.

Edited by Willard Phule, 09 November 2014 - 04:17 AM.

[Escef]

Xoco, on 09 November 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

Sorry, but what's the..erm..zellbrigen?

Zellbrigen (often abbreviated to "zell" by players) is the clan system of honorable combat. Clan warriors only engage a limited number of targets at a time. If a a clan warrior challenges or fires upon an enemy warrior that is not engaged it is considered a challenge to duel, and a clan warrior can challenge or fire upon any number of unengaged opponents as they like (it's inviting a gang beating, but that's not the point). Firing upon an enemy that is already engaged is a serious breach of this code of combat, and risks turning the combat into a bit of a free for all (basically what we have now in MWO). Most clan warriors are not trained to fight under these circumstances, so they prefer to avoid it.

Opponents that perform certain actions that are consider dezgra (disgraceful) are viewed as not being worthy of zell, and are open season for the whole side. Bandits/pirates are automatically considered dezgra, and many clans consider mercenaries, or even Inner Sphere opponents in general, to automatically be dezgra. Tactics such as withholding fire for no tactical purpose, protracted hiding, and engaging from beyond an opponent's weapon range can be considered dezgra (but there is some leeway, depending upon how conservative the clan in question is). Certain weapons are also considered dezgra by nature, such as artillery (once again, some clans are less restrictive about this).

Outside of groups that are actively roleplaying being in a clan faction, you just plain don't see zell in MWO. Though every now and again you will see someone call out another player for a duel in the middle of a game. If this happens and it is accepted, it is generally acceptable to escort your team member to whatever grid the battle is taking place in, just in case. DO NOT be the guy that interferes, that's just poor sportsmanship.

[Willard Phule]

And here I thought the entire concept was named after a Ghost Bear mating ritual......

[HlynkaCG]

AUSwarrior24, on 09 November 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

The animations alone would make such a task incredibly daunting. Handling melee as just a short range weapon... probably wouldn't work as well as people think. That's what they did in MW4, and that was hardly accurate or interesting.

And from my own observations of the MWO models, I'm not even convinced they have the capacity to animate beyond their static 'at arms' stance. In fact, many of the arm joints on 'Mechs don't even look like they could rotate upwards. And... well, can you imagine a Dire Wolf or Timber Wolf trying to punch? I don't see it happening.

Timber and Dire Wolves can't punch because they lack a full set of actuators.