94 replies to this topic

[EvangelionUnit]

Americas Army had some nice coop missions again (hardcore) bots. wouldn't be that bad for the game, combined with the CLAN invasion. so you might endup with your team again 5 NPC clan mechs ? i think 12 vs 5 medium to heavy clan mechs is a fair deal for both sides, if 12 vs 10, the clan mech's should be only light to medium, but even than they can be pain in the *** for the IS guys

[Project_Mercy]

At the last Q/A on the subject, there's no salvage in the game currently. All you get from games is XP and cash. Salvage has been out for a while, it was one of the first pillars of BT that MWO tossed out.

[Tovran]

Salavge would make getting stuff too easy and would flood the market unless people also lost stuff. People really do not like losing stuff... Also seeing as PGI needs to make money somehow I doubt it would work. Also this is multiplayer only, there was never anything like salvage in the multiplayer components of the last mech games unless people set up a sort of system themselves outside of the game. If they do something like release PVE campaigns, perhaps you will see it there as it wouldn't conceivably be too hard to seperate what you get in the PVE stuff from your PVP equipment.

[Ducks Guts]

Liberty, on 26 June 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Okay, I can see someone not wanting to lose their precious Founder's Mech. I suppose you always need at least one mech. However, that doesn't keep them from having a beat up chassis appear in your inventory when you beat someone. Perhaps you have to use C-Bills to unlock it and repair it. Abandoning kills just breaks immersion as I find it hard to fathom warriors (Especially IS) leaving Clan Mechs or expesnsive IS Mechs laying around on the battlefield. Its like driving by in a Camaro and coming up on an abandoned Bugatti Veyron and just leaving it there. Why?

This part should be kept simple. Spend the c-bills to make repairs, this is the fair thing to do. Or maybe optional games that include throwing in the pink slips. (wager matches)

[Project_Mercy]

Tovran, on 26 June 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Salavge would make getting stuff too easy and would flood the market unless people also lost stuff. People really do not like losing stuff... Also seeing as PGI needs to make money somehow I doubt it would work. Also this is multiplayer only, there was never anything like salvage in the multiplayer components of the last mech games unless people set up a sort of system themselves outside of the game. If they do something like release PVE campaigns, perhaps you will see it there as it wouldn't conceivably be too hard to seperate what you get in the PVE stuff from your PVP equipment.

This is incorrect. While Multiplayer Battletech (the GEnie game) didn't have salvage, plenty of MUSH and MUX had a full salvage system, and had considerably larger player counts per engagement. They were completely PvP games. Salvage makes a lot more sense in a PvP game than it does in a PvE game, where you can justify that the player is some super-human who has unlimited resources.

A good PvP game would have salvage. There would be a fixed amount of resources that would be balanced based on the current economy, and people would be rewarded and penalized for their success and failures based on the system.

PGI though is too concerned about the F2P model. They can't sell mech chassis and goods and maintain a system of limited resources to casual players who just want to buy a mech, drop in and blast a few people, then go home. MWO wasn't designed as a good PvP game first. It's designed to be a casual friendly game where RL cash can be used to augment time or ability. I'm not saying this in a derogatory way. PvP is in the back seat compared to making $$$ and making the game accessible. Most games are now adays because making minimum wage for your efforts is not high on anyone's list.

MU** were the true F2P games. They were free. Maybe you donated occasionally, but the game was completely free, (beyond being beholden to the whims of the devs). As a result, you had much better games designs (even if generally shrouded in a pretty terrible UI), because they weren't a combination of compromises between the game and sleeping on the couch when you come home without a paycheck again.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 26 June 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Zalikar]

Well, if they stay close to TT rules, it's not a simple matter to capture a whole 'mech. The neural helmet for each 'mech is usually keyed to its pilot's brainwaves, and tends to give a nasty feedback to any brainwaves that don't match. Unless you have a really good hacker, that is .

Now, the option for salvaging specific parts of other 'mechs is easier, and makes more sense. I think I remember reading in one of the TT books about ho some units were given orders to try to blow arms off certain 'mechs in hopes of their salvage crews being able to pick up an intact weapon. Of course, you can only salvage equipment if you win the battle....

[grimzod]

I've been wondering if they will use your Faction Rank to determine whether or not you get to use Captured Clan chassis and weapons later during the war. Since we cant salvage that might fit neatly within the rules.

[Project_Mercy]

Zalikar, on 26 June 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Well, if they stay close to TT rules, it's not a simple matter to capture a whole 'mech. The neural helmet for each 'mech is usually keyed to its pilot's brainwaves, and tends to give a nasty feedback to any brainwaves that don't match. Unless you have a really good hacker, that is .

All mechs can be re-synched by any mech tech and some gear. there's a description of it in the original MechWarrior book (that being the BT RPG, not the CG game that came after). It just takes time. What you can't do is just jump into a mech and drive away with it. If that wasn't the case, most IS mechs would have become useless during the 1st succession war.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 26 June 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Erwiin]

Salvage has always been an important part of the Battletech game. After the joy of blowing the crap out of your enemy, you want to see what goodies are left over. Hopefully salvage will be implemented in some way or another.

[Liberty]

Perhaps the only thing to hope for is that they implement a PVE mechanic into gameplay when the Clans arrive where salvage then becomes available. Heh, I remember in the old TT where I would buy the lead minatures and mix match parts to make some weird looking mechs. I can't recall precisely but I think I even had a Crusader with Warhammer arms.

[Delthius]

I agree with earlier posters. Getting c-bills is as if u salvaged for money... Items would appear everywhere if my mech gets beaten, i dont lose anything, and the enemy gets a gauss rifle. That would actually limit customization to what u FIND, where with the c-bills u can buy anything u want

[Erwiin]

Maybe salvage of 'Mechs and/or equipment could be implemented in such a way that a player whose 'Mech is 'destroyed' during a battle would have to pay to have their 'Mech repaired, but wouldn't actually lose it. While those players on the 'winning team' are presented with a list of wrecked 'Mechs and equipment from the opposing team which they can purchase (at a reduced cost due to damage) if they so desire. So the losing team and players whose 'Mechs are destroyed don't actually lose anything, while the winning team, even those players on the winning team whose 'Mechs were destroyed, are able to gain salvage from the battle.

Just an idea.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I do not think they should or logically can put Clan Tech in our game. Clan Tech was better than any Non Clan Tech. Their Mechs could carry more at the same weight, and their weapons weighed less while doing equal or better damage. Simply put, in any game that had Clan Tech, there was no reason to ever use Non Clan Tech except as last resort filler. What I am saying is that putting Clan Tech in this type of game would destroy any and all value or point to use Non Clan Tech Mechs or weapons. Why save up for an IS Mech instead of a Clan one? IS Tech would be worthless. The solution would be to balance them out... but I don't see how that is possible from a lore standpoint. Their technology was simply better, in almost every way. There wasn't a contest. The best solution is to just keep Clan Tech out of the hands of the players. If the stuff ever does come available, it better cost 2x or 3x the price over IS stuff so IS stuff actually retains some value. But even that would probably fail as I bet EVERY player would still just save up for Clan stuff and forget IS entirely.

[Tovran]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 26 June 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

You are wrong. While Multiplayer Battletech (the GEnie game) didn't have salvage, plenty of MUSH and MUX had a full salvage system, and had considerably larger player counts per engagement. They were completely PvP games. Salvage makes a lot more sense in a PvP game than it does in a PvE game, where you can justify that the player is some super-human who has unlimited resources.

A good PvP game WOULD have salvage. There would be a fixed amount of resources that would be balanced based on the current economy, and people would be rewarded and penalized for their success and failures based on the system.

PGI though is too concerned about the F2P model. They can't sell mech chassis and goods and maintain a system of limited resources to casual players who just want to buy a mech, drop in and blast a few people, then go home. MWO wasn't designed as a good PvP game first. It's designed to be a casual friendly game where RL cash can be used to augment time or ability. I'm not saying this in a derogatory way, it's just that's the design. PvP is in the back seat compared to making $$$ and making the game accessible.

I don't think MUSHs or MUXs are generally on the same scale as MWO especially in development costs. Certain considerations do have to be made based on that fact. I was speaking more to games like MW 3, MW 4 etc though, but you are technically correct. The best kind of correct!

[PANZERBUNNY]

Some people obviously still have hangups about Clan tech working with IS designs.

Doesn't work that way.

[Project_Mercy]

In advance, I apologize that my post might have been a bit more confrontation than I had meant it to be. I edited to remove the more.. angry parts than it needed. Not enough caffeine.

Tovran, on 26 June 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

I don't think MUSHs or MUXs are generally on the same scale as MWO especially in development costs. Certain considerations do have to be made based on that fact.

Definitely true. Though having spent a lot of time working on the LP Mudlib, I can tell you that the amount of hours coded in the MUX lib is pretty high, If you attempted to pay normal wages for those contributors, you would be looking at a hefty sum. What they didn't have was marketing expenses, or licensing fees for other libraries (like the graphics engine) and most ran on school servers where the school either didn't know, or turned a blind eye to it.

I'm not naive enough (though possibly close) to assume that a big box game can compete with the design principles of free labors of love. What I'm trying to say though is, I think it's fair to be honest about things. I won't fault PGI for attempting to make money on it, it's just it's easier to swallow if everyone's out in the open about what they're doing. By coming out and saying "We aren't adding in this complexity to the system because it makes for a better game," I don't believe that to be true. It makes the game viable, but that doesn't make it better. It's like all the advertising and merchandising that goes along with modern professional sports (especially here in the US).

[PANZERBUNNY]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 26 June 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

This is incorrect. While Multiplayer Battletech (the GEnie game) didn't have salvage, plenty of MUSH and MUX had a full salvage system, and had considerably larger player counts per engagement. They were completely PvP games. Salvage makes a lot more sense in a PvP game than it does in a PvE game, where you can justify that the player is some super-human who has unlimited resources.

A good PvP game would have salvage. There would be a fixed amount of resources that would be balanced based on the current economy, and people would be rewarded and penalized for their success and failures based on the system.

PGI though is too concerned about the F2P model. They can't sell mech chassis and goods and maintain a system of limited resources to casual players who just want to buy a mech, drop in and blast a few people, then go home. MWO wasn't designed as a good PvP game first. It's designed to be a casual friendly game where RL cash can be used to augment time or ability. I'm not saying this in a derogatory way. PvP is in the back seat compared to making $$$ and making the game accessible. Most games are now adays because making minimum wage for your efforts is not high on anyone's list.

MU** were the true F2P games. They were free. Maybe you donated occasionally, but the game was completely free, (beyond being beholden to the whims of the devs). As a result, you had much better games designs (even if generally shrouded in a pretty terrible UI), because they weren't a combination of compromises between the game and sleeping on the couch when you come home without a paycheck again.

Salvage doesn't make sense for soldiers fighting for their faction.

If anything, it is sent back to the engineers and support staff. To think that a regular line mechwarrior or even officer has his own little stash of advanced tech or loot from the battlefield is a bit silly.

Most missions against the enemy are raiding missions where you grab what you can from the enemies supplies and defenders and get off world ASAP. Needless to say, your units chance of keeping this material is slim.

I know we can gain rank within our factions, but that is more of a gamey measurement of your success in the game.

The C-Bill reward represents everything from combat pay to salvage from the field. I don't see the need for salvage since the items we gain are never destroyed.

Including an after match account of components you destroyed or chassis you melted with what you get as a C-bill bonus would be fine. Adding it to your inventory....again, not really needed in the scope this game is trying to portray.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 26 June 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[Liberty]

I disagree with keeping Clan Tech out of IS hands especially if your a Merc. It simply doesn't make sense other than keeping Clan Mechs the best fighting machines.Which they are. However, I feel a veteran player who has fitted out his IS Mech out of hard earned salvage should be able to do so. If your a Clanner and underestimate him assuming he has low grade tech then thats your fatal mistake and how it should be. You should never assume anything about your opponent simply because of his affiliation and you should always assume your opponent is dangerous. Trying to keep the goodies saying its not fair is BS. Mechwarrior isn't about being fair. Its about tactics and using whats at your disposal. That includes pilots, mechs, and equipment. Finders Keepers definitely comes into play in the lore of the Battletech/Mechwarrior universe. The only logical reason to not give IS players Clan Tech is if they are of a House Affiliation since in the early part of the war they would likely confiscate such equipment for research. However, that would not apply to Mercs with a specific contract.

[Project_Mercy]

PANZERBUNNY, on 26 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Salvage doesn't make sense for soldiers fighting for their faction.

If you want to go down that path, technically you wouldn't have any control over anything you do. You get assigned a mech and that's what you pilot, baring you being pretty high in your factional rank. You could not change your mech. You wouldn't be earning the massive c-bills we will be getting for our match to buy gear. You are just a cog in the machine if you will.

And yes, I have actually played a BT game where it worked that way. Rank was determined by promotion and voting. Gear was held by the faction, and distributed as needed. All salvage went into the global pool. It was pretty fun. The people who didn't want to submit to that system were mercs. It worked great.

[Erwiin]

Bluten, on 26 June 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

I do not think they should or logically can put Clan Tech in our game. Clan Tech was better than any Non Clan Tech. Their Mechs could carry more at the same weight, and their weapons weighed less while doing equal or better damage. Simply put, in any game that had Clan Tech, there was no reason to ever use Non Clan Tech except as last resort filler. What I am saying is that putting Clan Tech in this type of game would destroy any and all value or point to use Non Clan Tech Mechs or weapons. Why save up for an IS Mech instead of a Clan one? IS Tech would be worthless. The solution would be to balance them out... but I don't see how that is possible from a lore standpoint. Their technology was simply better, in almost every way. There wasn't a contest. The best solution is to just keep Clan Tech out of the hands of the players. If the stuff ever does come available, it better cost 2x or 3x the price over IS stuff so IS stuff actually retains some value. But even that would probably fail as I bet EVERY player would still just save up for Clan stuff and forget IS entirely.

The Clan invasion is going to happen. There's no avoiding it. As for IS tech being worthless... I've always been partial to C3 Computers and slaves, melee weapons (if they are included later), MRMs and Rocket Launchers. A way to jury-rig Clan equipment onto an IS 'Mech will hopefully be possible, perhaps at a cost, be it C-bills or performance of the equipment.

Hopefully it will happen.