20517 replies to this topic

[Virlutris]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 November 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

25% reduced speed for the first leg gone, 50% or 40 KPH with the second (whichever is slowest), dead with the third. It isn't weight that is lost with the additional structure, it is crit slots. Basically, the only place you can mount anything, short of ammo or jump jets, are the torsos. Quads would probably rely on one big gun with a backup set of smaller guns approach to weapons design.

As for how they'd handle? Simple. No torso twist, but they gain the ability to sidestep and turn in place. Basically, typical FPS controls. Being all leg also means that, due to volumetric scaling, they'd be small for their weight. Smaller targets with high mounted guns. Sounds good, and compensated for with their limited crit space.

Sereglach, on 10 November 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Quads are pretty easy to balance for MWO, especially if they get the inverse kinematics into the game (which would allow the quad to stay level on slopes):

1. Make screen shake virtually non-existent.

2. Adds strafing (can be activated/disabled with the "lock arm movement" button).

3. Turret-like torso-twisting for quads like the Tarantula or really good structure/armor quirks for ones like the Behemoth.

4. Great hill-climbing abilities.

Legging is also pretty easily handled:
4 Legs - Full Movement
3 Legs - 80% Movement
2 Legs - 60% Movement
1 Leg - 50% Movement or 40KPH, whichever is less

I'm imagining the handling something like this:

The mouse controls turn the mech. Effectively, the whole thing is treated as the upper body, so that when you swing your mouse, the guns go with it, just like on other mechs. The difference of course is that it's the mech quick-shuffling to adjust. The leg controls, be they keyboard or stick, would control the strafing, forward and backward directions.

The tricky part (initially) would be learning to nuance the engine speed with the side-steps using that system, because I'm used to having a turning arc as the legs swing in the correct direction rather than instant response. Much like the Urbie's 360 twist though, using it to maximum benefit would come with a little trial and error.

Bring on the quads!

Truth be told, IS Omni seems like a real possibility. "Something we've never done before" is still pretty broad though. Expanding on the "technically" theme, I submit the following Things We've Never Done:

*Standard engine omni (Kingfisher :3)
*Homeworld #NeverTainted Clan designs (insert your favorite here)
*IS Omni
*IS mech with ClanTech (note: I'm being comprehensive here)
*Star League Era-only design (could easily appeal to Clanners or IS: "muh ancient cache!")
*IS assault with MASC-V
*IS 85-, 95- or 100-tonner with JJs
*Edit, adding: some design with 3 crits of equipment/weapons in the CT. I don't remember which one did this.
*Edit, adding: leg-mounted weapons.
*Edit, adding: extendable arms? (naaaaah)

Out of these, I'm going with Star League-only design as my dark horse, followed by Standard-engine ClanTech omni.

Quads would be super crazy awesome cool.

Edited by Virlutris, 10 November 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[Odanan]

Bud Crue, on 10 November 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Alex is an artist, and many like to create, not just re-image. While I love what he does with the re-imaging he is probably the only person who I would have faith to come up with something unique that would be cool and not an utter violation of the look and feel of the IP. If he rose a stink about wanting to create his own mech design, I for one would risk letting him do it, if I was PGI, and that's what it took to keep him happy.

Anyway, just hypothesizing about alternatives regarding Russ's "something we've never done before" comment.

I don't doubt Alex can create some great new mechs, he is the Mechelangelo of our days, right. But why?
- There are already canonical mechs of all shapes/designs (609 different battlemech chassis, 93 different omnimechs chassis);
- If some interesting loadout is needed, PGI can add it to a canonical chassis (like they are doing with their apocryphal variants).

[Odanan]

"Something never done before"... "people will love it"... OMG, it's melee weapons!! No MW game had melee weapons ever. And considering HBS Battletech will have melee, the timing of this feature is perfect.

If melee is restricted for originally melee mechs (mech with melee weapons), it is actually a very easy "weapon" to add. Very short range scan-type weapon. Just needs the arm animation and it's done.

Hatchetman confirmed!!!

Also, there is no proper Solaris without melee...

[Kael Posavatz]

The issue with opening up advanced tech for the IS side is that you throw balance out the window.

Right now in QP most mechs and most weapon systems are functional. Sniper, dakka, srm-brawl, laser vomit... they all work. LRMs work, it's just the playstyle they engender is not particularly team-friendly.

A lot of that, however, is because PGI has used quirks to even out the rough edges.

But toss IS ER lasers and the rest in, and you'll need to back off the quirks to keep power-creep from over-powering the Clans, and which point base IS tech becomes worthless. Not only that, but you would immediately have Clan players asking about their advanced tech which comes with its own headaches in the form of the advanced tactical missile launcher. If selectable ammunition was a thing, all well and good. But PGI can't get it to work and has said so repeatedly in reference to the LB-X autocannon. I suppose they could put in multiple launchers (LRM/SRM/HE), but that totally goes against the purpose of the ATM.

I can't see PGI throwing out years of balancing (including the upcoming November patch), to risk potentially destabilizing the whole game in December. At the very least something of this magnitude would probably be run through the test server.

[Pariah Devalis]

Kael Posavatz, on 10 November 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

The issue with opening up advanced tech for the IS side is that you throw balance out the window.

Right now in QP most mechs and most weapon systems are functional. Sniper, dakka, srm-brawl, laser vomit... they all work. LRMs work, it's just the playstyle they engender is not particularly team-friendly.

A lot of that, however, is because PGI has used quirks to even out the rough edges.

But toss IS ER lasers and the rest in, and you'll need to back off the quirks to keep power-creep from over-powering the Clans, and which point base IS tech becomes worthless. Not only that, but you would immediately have Clan players asking about their advanced tech which comes with its own headaches in the form of the advanced tactical missile launcher. If selectable ammunition was a thing, all well and good. But PGI can't get it to work and has said so repeatedly in reference to the LB-X autocannon. I suppose they could put in multiple launchers (LRM/SRM/HE), but that totally goes against the purpose of the ATM.

I can't see PGI throwing out years of balancing (including the upcoming November patch), to risk potentially destabilizing the whole game in December. At the very least something of this magnitude would probably be run through the test server.

Eh. As said earlier, ATMs are easy. Give the missile a hidden "optimal range" that is 1/3 of the listed maximum. Have it linearly scale down to a fixed minimum damage at maximum range started from that unlisted optimal range. Essentially, the closer you are to the target, the more damage it does up to a fixed maximum, and the further away from the target, the less it does down to a fixed minimum. Add in a very flat, very fast missile flight and we're golden.

The question is if they should be guided, like LRMs, or dumbfire, like SRMs. If the first, they potentially obsolete streaks (though not LRMs because of the flat flight path). If the second, they could obsolete standard SRMs - though perhaps not Artemis SRMs as far as clustering is concerned.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 10 November 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Kael Posavatz]

Virlutris, on 10 November 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

*Edit, adding: leg-mounted weapons.

It won't be this. The Assassin 101 was supposed to have leg-mounted lasers and PGI moved them into the side torsos. I suppose that could be a smoke-screen to hide what they are doing, but the instant 'false advertising' screams are easily predicted in which case marketing would have told Russ to hold off on this mech.

On the upside, if they put it in the Hellbringer-Primes would get anti-personnel pods in the legs. Since we don't have those, how about MG or...AC-2?

[Metus regem]

Kael Posavatz, on 10 November 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

The issue with opening up advanced tech for the IS side is that you throw balance out the window.

Right now in QP most mechs and most weapon systems are functional. Sniper, dakka, srm-brawl, laser vomit... they all work. LRMs work, it's just the playstyle they engender is not particularly team-friendly.

A lot of that, however, is because PGI has used quirks to even out the rough edges.

But toss IS ER lasers and the rest in, and you'll need to back off the quirks to keep power-creep from over-powering the Clans, and which point base IS tech becomes worthless. Not only that, but you would immediately have Clan players asking about their advanced tech which comes with its own headaches in the form of the advanced tactical missile launcher. If selectable ammunition was a thing, all well and good. But PGI can't get it to work and has said so repeatedly in reference to the LB-X autocannon. I suppose they could put in multiple launchers (LRM/SRM/HE), but that totally goes against the purpose of the ATM.

I can't see PGI throwing out years of balancing (including the upcoming November patch), to risk potentially destabilizing the whole game in December. At the very least something of this magnitude would probably be run through the test server.

I have very little issue with giving the IS their Clan knock offs, well there is an issue with IS UAC/10's and 20's, they have to be balanced against the Clan counter parts with out being out right better (Single slugs like the IS UAC/5) or Out right worse (3 or 4 round bursts like the clan versions). On the same hand, it would be much easier to balance the IS-ERML Vs the cERML, rather than the MLas Vs. the cERML like we have now.

[Kael Posavatz]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 November 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

Eh. As said earlier, ATMs are easy. Give the missile a hidden "optimal range" that is 1/3 of the listed maximum. Have it linearly scale down to a fixed minimum damage at maximum range started from that unlisted optimal range. Essentially, the closer you are to the target, the more damage it does up to a fixed maximum, and the further away from the target, the less it does down to a fixed minimum. Add in a very flat, very fast missile flight and we're golden.

The question is if they should be guided, like LRMs, or dumbfire, like SRMs. If the first, they potentially obsolete streaks (though not LRMs because of the flat flight path). If the second, they could obsolete standard SRMs - though perhaps not Artemis SRMs as far as clustering is concerned.

If I understand this correctly, you are suggesting going to a single ammunition that does increasing amounts of damage as the range falls. This is an interesting approach to the issue, although I personally find the need to balance ammunition loads against how you engage to be both an appealing challenge and a balancing mechanic. I suspect you are correct in regards to guidance, but SRMs were never supposed to be the dumb-fire weapons they are in MWO.

Metus regem, on 10 November 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

I have very little issue with giving the IS their Clan knock offs, well there is an issue with IS UAC/10's and 20's, they have to be balanced against the Clan counter parts with out being out right better (Single slugs like the IS UAC/5) or Out right worse (3 or 4 round bursts like the clan versions). On the same hand, it would be much easier to balance the IS-ERML Vs the cERML, rather than the MLas Vs. the cERML like we have now.

Yes, but right now there is a place in the game for the IS medium laser. If the IS ER medium laser goes into the game two things will happen. First, there will be a teething period while IS ER-med is balanced to Clan ER-med. Second, the IS standard medium laser will become irrelevant.

I am, of course, generalizing and using one specific weapon to make a broad example. However, my point was that PGI has done a rather remarkable job of making most every weapon relevant, and almost every mech (looking at you, vindicator) relevant. I can't see them casting a set of weapons they've worked hard to balance aside, and I think balancing so that both IS-standard and IS-ER lasers (and every other weapon) are equally viable to be even more difficult than it has been to achieve the balance they have.

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 10 November 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[Metus regem]

Kael Posavatz, on 10 November 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

If I understand this correctly, you are suggesting going to a single ammunition that does increasing amounts of damage as the range falls. This is an interesting approach to the issue, although I personally find the need to balance ammunition loads against how you engage to be both an appealing challenge and a balancing mechanic. I suspect you are correct in regards to guidance, but SRMs were never supposed to be the dumb-fire weapons they are in MWO.



Yes, but right now there is a place in the game for the IS medium laser. If the IS ER medium laser goes into the game two things will happen. First, there will be a teething period while IS ER-med is balanced to Clan ER-med. Second, the IS standard medium laser will become irrelevant.

I am, of course, generalizing and using one specific weapon to make a broad example. However, my point was that PGI has done a rather remarkable job of making most every weapon relevant, and almost every mech (looking at you, vindicator) relevant. I can't see them casting a set of weapons they've worked hard to balance aside, and I think balancing so that both IS-standard and IS-ER lasers (and every other weapon) are equally viable to be even more difficult than it has been to achieve the balance they have.

I'd still argue that there would be a place for the standard IS MLas in a world with the IS-ERML, namly being that the MLas is a lot cooler running.

IS Mlas:
Heat: 3
Damage: 5
Range 9 (270m)
Tons: 1
Crits: 1

IS ERML:
Heat: 5
Damage: 5
Range: 12 (360m)
Tons:1
Crits: 1

Those are the TT stat differences between the IS ERML and MLas, some builds would work better with the cooler running, and likely faster recycling, but shorter ranged MLas, while the ERML would be better in more mid range builds.

[Virlutris]

Kael Posavatz, on 10 November 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

It won't be this. The Assassin 101 was supposed to have leg-mounted lasers and PGI moved them into the side torsos. I suppose that could be a smoke-screen to hide what they are doing, but the instant 'false advertising' screams are easily predicted in which case marketing would have told Russ to hold off on this mech.

On the upside, if they put it in the Hellbringer-Primes would get anti-personnel pods in the legs. Since we don't have those, how about MG or...AC-2?

Meh. I'm being comprehensive.

Doesn't seem likely to me either, but keeps with the "nevar b4" theme and looks to poke it mercilessly until it stops moving.

Meh.

[Bud Crue]

Inspirednby the last few posts:
Another idea for "something we've never done before"...Crusader and leg mounted missile hard points.

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 10 November 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

"Something never done before"... "people will love it"... OMG, it's melee weapons!! No MW game had melee weapons ever. And considering HBS Battletech will have melee, the timing of this feature is perfect.

If melee is restricted for originally melee mechs (mech with melee weapons), it is actually a very easy "weapon" to add. Very short range scan-type weapon. Just needs the arm animation and it's done.

Hatchetman confirmed!!!

Also, there is no proper Solaris without melee...

That'd be epic!

Hatchetman, Axeman, Berserker confirmed!

I'm not sure of a melee light, I think the Night Sky is one... Maybe idk.

[Odanan]

TheArisen, on 10 November 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

That'd be epic!

Hatchetman, Axeman, Berserker confirmed!

I'm not sure of a melee light, I think the Night Sky is one... Maybe idk.

Scarabus!
Ultra-fast 30 tonner (162 km/h stock), with ECM and Hatchet. What's not to love?

[Metus regem]

TheArisen, on 10 November 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

That'd be epic!

Hatchetman, Axeman, Berserker confirmed!

I'm not sure of a melee light, I think the Night Sky is one... Maybe idk.

I always found that a Locust or Firemoth using MASC make fantastic cruise missiles, specifically when they are loaded to the gills with MG ammo, and have 4t of MG ammo strapped to each arm...

They tend to do this when they hit something:

[Kael Posavatz]

okay, how about this something PGI has never done before....

Releasing a IIC variant of a mech before that Mech's IS counterpart has been released?

We could be looking at the Clint IIC in the very near future.

[jss78]

Bud Crue, on 10 November 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

Inspirednby the last few posts:
Another idea for "something we've never done before"...Crusader and leg mounted missile hard points.

Oh lord, I hope it's not this. I'm a big Crusader fan in TT, but even there the leg SRM's are SO frustrating. Can you imagine not being able to torso twist your main brawling weapons in MWO?

[BarHaid]

jss78, on 10 November 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

Oh lord, I hope it's not this. I'm a big Crusader fan in TT, but even there the leg SRM's are SO frustrating. Can you imagine not being able to torso twist your main brawling weapons in MWO?

LOL
That would be "HARD MODE" by design!

[Kael Posavatz]

You are looking at this proposal the wrong way.

Just think, with leg-mounted weapons you will be able to engage targets with arm-mounted, torso-mounted, and leg-mounted weapons...at the same time!

[RestosIII]

jss78, on 10 November 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

Oh lord, I hope it's not this. I'm a big Crusader fan in TT, but even there the leg SRM's are SO frustrating. Can you imagine not being able to torso twist your main brawling weapons in MWO?

TIR that they could be talking about releasing the hero variant of the Summoner with the leg mounted lasers.

[Odanan]

BTW, guys, don't forget to redeem your free special Centurion A. Paste the code NCIXMECH in https://mwomercs.com/profile/redeem

Edited by Odanan, 11 November 2016 - 03:40 PM.