1236 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Laser Vomit, even Wub Vomit, is boring. Excuse me for wanting to have some variety.

Well... I'm not sure you can make chicken salad out of chicken poop that the Gargoyle dumps.

I guess.. one big ballistic and pewpew is the only other option...

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 21 December 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Well... I'm not sure you can make chicken salad out of chicken poop that the Gargoyle dumps.

I guess.. one big ballistic and pewpew is the only other option...

You'd be surprised how much I do in a near stock Prime. Now give it 4 moretons for ammo, and I'd be plenty happy.

[John80sk]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

I don't discount what he says because he's trolly. I just ignore him for that. I discount what he said because what the Summoner can do in the hands of a top tier player is an outlier to it's actual performance. And that build when compared to other "Meta" Heavies, doesn't even rank. Doing 1000 damage in a Summoner is nice, but when the same players in same scenario can do 1400 with a TW, it says the mech is still substandard, yes?

As for his skill, I honestly could care less. Get most "top tier" players out in PUGlandia, and they may still be good, but in general still die like the rest of us. I've only met a handful of players that make my sphincter pucker a little when I see them in a solo drop. He ain't one of them.

My point is you stated that the Summoner couldn't perform against good players. I'm disagreeing on the basis of Hybrid being a good player with a good group player's ELO, and therefor ELO matching him against good players. I'm also basing this on me taking this mech against Lord, SJR, and other such premades and having it perform quite well.

The overall point is that the Summoner is behind the power curve, but it is not a long way behind the power curve. It's a solid Tier 3, perhaps even Tier 2.

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

An Endo enabled Hellbie would still be a damn fine robot (well, even more fine than it presently is).

As for FF, it's kind of implied that if you get to toy around with one internal "core" item that you'd get to toy around with more. FF in particular, being armor mounted on the exterior, would theoretically be easier to replace than a mech's entire skeleton...

The Hellbringer would be the biggest problem with the option to upgrade to Endo. The question is would it be any better than the Timberwolf or Thud right now? It would certainly offer more builds for the mech, but I don't necessarily think that it would offer better builds. The truth is that pretty much any clan mech released from this point on that does not come with endo will probably be sub-par in it's weight class without aggressive quirks. So, PGI can either worry about quirking every mech without endo, or they can stop it from being an issue entirely. This means they only need to worry about quirking mechs with extremely poor hitboxes/hardpoints/tonnage like the Ice Ferret and Myst Lynx.

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Not interested in spending time and money just to get people like you off my back.

So you speak about something you don't even know.
Here we go again like you said. You still telling pack of BS with a promotion for the insults.


It's not 3.5ton who will make the Summoner "OP", it's not giving him more armor, or more weapon that will make him OP. That mech is far away from that point at the moment.


And yes, I AM posting again at the heat of the Clans Mechs vs IS Mech.
The Summoner was know to be extremely cold on the battlefield and could litteraly never overheat. Yet in game it's one of the hottest 'mech you can find.

It is like giving you a Catapult without enought slot for his missile. Or an Atlas with the resistance of a Locust.

Some of the mech are the exact contrary of what they were in the Lore and in the TT. The Summoner/Thor is one of them. That mech should and must be much colder than it is at the moment.

Edited by KuroNyra, 22 December 2014 - 12:28 AM.

[N0MAD]

Summoner is a decent mech, pilots well, not a good mech in my opinion because it lacks a bit of firepower for a 70 tonner.
Giving it a bit of weapons tonage via either armor change or removal of some fixed JJ would be a viable way, but ya slightly under gunned.

[Golden Vulf]

John Wolf, on 21 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Every single IS mech has FF and Endo options, however none of them can change weapon hardpoints at will. Clans have Pods, is has armor options.. I would think that is fair.

You can't really quirk a chassis that isn't a 'chassis' but a jigsaw puzzle.

IS Mechs already have hard point inflation to give them more hard points than they are supposed to have. the switching omni pods just lets clan configs keep up. Have you noticed that 80% of omnipods are redundant? What is so great about the Timberwolf S left arm omnipod having only a single energy hard point? would you ever take it over the Prime left arm?

On any Inner Sphere mech where the default loadout includes a PPC in that slot, the mech was given an extra energy hard point. Compare that to the Summoner, the PPC arm only has a single energy hard point, the D right arm has 2 energy hard points, so it works out.

Or how about the Ice Ferret, both the right arms on the prime and one of the other configs is identical, a single missile hard point.

Switchable omnipods are just the clan version of hard point inflation, some clan mechs got screwed in this regard, such as the Summoner, others had some pretty robust options, but the recent jump jet lock ****** them over.

Anyway, the proper way to quirk omnimechs is the way they've been doing it, individual quirks on the omnipods themselves. So the Gar A right arm gets some ER PPC quirks, while the Gar D right arm gets laser quirks, etc.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 22 December 2014 - 01:04 AM.

[Praehotec8]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

For the others, it would help but I don't like that it would make Omnimechs be built more similar to Battlemechs than they are currently. Locked internal stuff adds a degree of "flavor" between them and makes customizing them feel at least somewhat different.

Not to be snarky, but there is an easy fix there: lock the IS to their original structure and armor types. Why exactly are they so easy for battlemechs to change in this game anyways? From what I understand such changes would be a major undertaking in lore, not often done. Therefore lock the structure, and give heavy quirks to individual mechs to increase their effectiveness, and still allow engine swapping. Do the opposite for clans.

It would cause shrieks of rage no doubt (which would be amusing to read...the forum would probably burn down), and may not be a good idea, but it is AN idea.

Allowing changing structure and armor type on omni-mechs would not be unbalanced, and would certainly even out some of the lesser clan mechs. The problem is, as you said, it does at this point lessen the difference between clan and IS. Not sure there is a perfect answer to that, however. Maybe allow c-LRMs to do full damage under 180m would help mechs like the summoner?

P.S. What is a Steiner doing wearing Kurita tags?

[Rakshasa]

Praehotec8, on 22 December 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Not to be snarky, but there is an easy fix there: lock the IS to their original structure and armor types. Why exactly are they so easy for battlemechs to change in this game anyways? From what I understand such changes would be a major undertaking in lore, not often done. Therefore lock the structure, and give heavy quirks to individual mechs to increase their effectiveness, and still allow engine swapping. Do the opposite for clans.

Not good. Part of what makes BattleTech appealing is making a mech "yours" - tweaking and modifying and adjusting until you're happy with the result. It makes the game more fun. Clan mechs aren't much fun to customize at the moment, so I'll absolutely defend the IS's right to modify to their heart's content Besides, what's the use of providing a toolkit of options for mech modifications if you withold them on an arbitrary basis? It'll just shrink the pool of meta-viable mechs down to those which weren't horribly designed in the TT.

Praehotec8, on 22 December 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

P.S. What is a Steiner doing wearing Kurita tags?

Our mortal minds cannot handle the answer

Edited by Rakshasa, 22 December 2014 - 03:45 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Guise, pls don't turn this into a back-and-forth of "GET ON MAH LEVEL."

I'm glad I'm not l33t or on a competitive level. It sounds boring, repetitive, and terribly limited in what I can run.

I think I am much happier where I am .

Oh and as for the Summoner, yea I think it needs a bit more help. If not in hard point, then in weapon characteristics or JJ mechanics.

[The Boz]

Golden Vulf, on 22 December 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

IS Mechs already have hard point inflation to give them more hard points than they are supposed to have.

Only some of the newest IS mechs have "hardpoint inflation". Do you remember the last time PGI added a hardpoint to a mech? Yeah, me neither.
Please, Clanners, stop pretending that anything one IS mech has is shared among all IS mechs.

[Curccu]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

But....
Shouldn't you be in Clan Wolf?

But...
Mr. Steiner shouldn't you be Steiner also

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

Only some of the newest IS mechs have "hardpoint inflation". Do you remember the last time PGI added a hardpoint to a mech? Yeah, me neither.
Please, Clanners, stop pretending that anything one IS mech has is shared among all IS mechs.

Centurion saw his rear laser facing foward. That alone is a hardpoint added, they could just have remove it since anyway it wasn't a front weapon.
Same goes for some other mech like the Atlas.

[The Boz]

...and this is hardpoint inflation?
Are you kidding me?

[Tahribator]

If the Summoner had lasers in those torso "nipple" hardpoints (like the Hellbringer), it would be a much much better 'Mech. Sadly the Clan 'Mechs that can't boat them are sentenced to mediocrity. Clan ballistics and missiles (except SRMs) are just meh. Plus mounting missiles on this thing makes it even more chubbier.

I expect PGI to quirk up the Summoner just like the TDR. I reckon a 25-30% ERPPC heat reduction should do the trick, it can barely mount 3 anyway.

[Lightfoot]

I think all you are likely to get is removable jump-jets on Clan mechs. You could argue it is a source of imbalance since only a few Clan mechs have jump jets, which is completely TRUE.

You will never ever get Endo and Ferro Fibrous changes or Engine switch-outs because this is how PGI has balanced the Clans. With an Open Clan Mechlab where I can put Endo and FF on the Thor I can make a 2xLB-20X plus 2xERML that goes 81kph with nearly full armor. That is what PGI won't allow and/or fears. But the fixed jump-jets are actually a source of imbalance.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

One thing I see also, is that if you just added Endo to the Summoner, you could max the armor everywhere but the legs (and those would get 54 each) and be able to have 2 tons ammo for the LRM15 and 3 tons for the LB-10X, which would pretty much give it the ammo to have it's TT effectiveness.

Arms and Legs still need some IS/Armor buffs, and then add a Cooldown to the LA Autocannon, and Quirk the RA PPC.

The more I look at it, then the Nova, Hellbringer, etc, the more I wonder if Endo would really be a big deal. Hellbringer needs extra cooling, period, MAd Dog is still 60 tons, the Nova still has Nova size and hitboxes, but might be able to run a tad cooler. Gargoyle would get some needed love, and neither the Dire Wolf nor Warhawk would ever use it because they need space more than tons.

Well, the Warhawk would benefit a bit because it would drop FF and pick up ES instead - dont really see that as an issue. However the Direwolf WOULD benefit and i think thats the problem. Not all builds would take it, but it would allow 4xGauss +8 tons of ammo (currently you can only fit 3 tons with 4 gauss, and you have 14 spare slots. -7 slots for ES leaves 7, and that is space to use the extra 5 tons on ammo)

To be honest here i think something people are missing a bit is a huge part of the balancing factor for clan ES being 7 slots is that there is no clan mech in the entire game/universe that has ES but has no FF. That means functionally compared to IS mechs the only benefit clan mechs get is ~1ton more from FF. 7 slots in almost all cases would be > that 1 ton of space. Unlocking ES/FF allows clan mechs to only take ES.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 22 December 2014 - 04:59 AM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Tahribator, on 22 December 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

If the Summoner had lasers in those torso "nipple" hardpoints (like the Hellbringer), it would be a much much better 'Mech. Sadly the Clan 'Mechs that can't boat them are sentenced to mediocrity. Clan ballistics and missiles (except SRMs) are just meh. Plus mounting missiles on this thing makes it even more chubbier.

I expect PGI to quirk up the Summoner just like the TDR. I reckon a 25-30% ERPPC heat reduction should do the trick, it can barely mount 3 anyway.

I'm kind of hoping for something like that. A wub and PPC version would be ideal.

[Xythius]

I think the biggest thing I would like to see (aside from letting clan 'mechs swap for endo), would be quirks to the JJs. Something like a +10-15% to turn rate while jumping. And/or +10% to boost, maybe -15% heat gen too. Make those JJs actually mean something. The Summoner was a cool running, highly maneurveable 'mech. Neither of which are represented by the one we have in game. Extreme quirks for the PPC would be welcome as well, definitely on par with the ones the Tbolt recieved.

Next to the TBR, the SMN is my favorite 'mech from TT, but the 'mech I loved, isn't the one we have.

[Bishop Steiner]

Curccu, on 22 December 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

But...
Mr. Steiner shouldn't you be Steiner also

Lies.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

Only some of the newest IS mechs have "hardpoint inflation". Do you remember the last time PGI added a hardpoint to a mech? Yeah, me neither.
Please, Clanners, stop pretending that anything one IS mech has is shared among all IS mechs.

what are you talking about?
The King Crab, just released, can have up to 3x Ballistics per arm. Up to 4 x Missiles and 4x Energy, depending on Model.
Stock, they all have 2 ac20, an LRM15 and 1 Large laser.

4 Weapons, total, yet every model has 10 hardpoints.

That, sir, is Hardpoint inflation.

and over 90% of variants, from the humble Locust up, have it. Only a small handful do not, and those are usually mechs like the Stalker, that already have 8 or more hardpoints, stock, or some of the newer Heroes, which are often more restricted than older ones.

Tahribator, on 22 December 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

If the Summoner had lasers in those torso "nipple" hardpoints (like the Hellbringer), it would be a much much better 'Mech. Sadly the Clan 'Mechs that can't boat them are sentenced to mediocrity. Clan ballistics and missiles (except SRMs) are just meh. Plus mounting missiles on this thing makes it even more chubbier.

I expect PGI to quirk up the Summoner just like the TDR. I reckon a 25-30% ERPPC heat reduction should do the trick, it can barely mount 3 anyway.

Hope you are wrong. I find those builds excessively boring to run. And we need reasons to run mechs that are not laservomit. (Of course, part of that, is we need to make Clan ACs better. Not IS good, since they are lighter, but better)

Widowmaker1981, on 22 December 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Well, the Warhawk would benefit a bit because it would drop FF and pick up ES instead - dont really see that as an issue. However the Direwolf WOULD benefit and i think thats the problem. Not all builds would take it, but it would allow 4xGauss +8 tons of ammo (currently you can only fit 3 tons with 4 gauss, and you have 14 spare slots. -7 slots for ES leaves 7, and that is space to use the extra 5 tons on ammo)

To be honest here i think something people are missing a bit is a huge part of the balancing factor for clan ES being 7 slots is that there is no clan mech in the entire game/universe that has ES but has no FF. That means functionally compared to IS mechs the only benefit clan mechs get is ~1ton more from FF. 7 slots in almost all cases would be > that 1 ton of space. Unlocking ES/FF allows clan mechs to only take ES.

so your concern is, that one highly overrated build of the DW (it is near helpless when swarmed, amongst other things) actually has enough ammo to be viable then?

Lightfoot, on 22 December 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

I think all you are likely to get is removable jump-jets on Clan mechs. You could argue it is a source of imbalance since only a few Clan mechs have jump jets, which is completely TRUE.

You will never ever get Endo and Ferro Fibrous changes or Engine switch-outs because this is how PGI has balanced the Clans. With an Open Clan Mechlab where I can put Endo and FF on the Thor I can make a 2xLB-20X plus 2xERML that goes 81kph with nearly full armor. That is what PGI won't allow and/or fears. But the fixed jump-jets are actually a source of imbalance.

Yup, removing JJs from the premiere heavy clan jumper...that would fix it all right.

ShadowWolf Kell, on 22 December 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

I'm kind of hoping for something like that. A wub and PPC version would be ideal.

Am I the only one who would like to see "stock-ish" versions of the mechs actually viable, instead of feeding more into the minmax metas?