1236 replies to this topic

[The Boz]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Summoner needs weapons capacity and heat dissipation. I know you're speaking generally, but in this case, I doubt that mobility and armor will be enough (not enough to get it within 5% of TBR qual, anyway).

Wait, so the goal is now officially "get the Summoner up to TimberWolf quality"?

[Jacon Ceronia]

Summoner is excellent as is.

[Bishop Steiner]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Sure, and I read it.

Many folk here seem to dislike opening up engine changes/endo/ferro. This guy doesn't want quirks (and honestly, quirks are the only way forward, given the utter impossibility that the TBR sees a nerf).

So I asked him what he'd do. You really need to relax, bro.

nope. i hate relaxing

[F4T 4L]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Wait, so the goal is now officially "get the Summoner up to TimberWolf quality"?

Yes, the goal is to make all clan mechs better. The TBR can be best (if you insist) but the poor mechs should not be instantly dismissed because they're _that_ bad.

Jacon Ceronia, on 22 December 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Summoner is excellent as is.

Ok. Tell me how a summoner (any variant) is better than a TBR-S, in any meaningful way?

Edit, never mind "better". "As good as" is fine.

Edited by F4T 4L, 22 December 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Wintersdark]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

What's the answer then? Not being a ****.. just wonder how you think the low-order clan mechs should be boosted.

Edit: assuming that you agree that they should be boosted.. but even the hardest of hard core IS supporters has to agree that the lion's share of clan mechs are UP. When was the last time you dropped with 2 adders? Or 2 mist lynx?

The slow lights aside, low-order Clan mechs all suffer from a lack of ES and/or FF. Thus, unlocking ES/FF would greatly help boost them. From that point, you quirk. Without ES/FF, you just need larger quirks, which serves to move Clan mechs in the same direction as IS mechs, being specialized to certain loadouts.

The lack of ES/FF negates the "clan weapons are lighter" advantage, resulting in mechs with (lasers excepted) much weaker weapons.

I'm not saying not to quirk at all. Quirks will be necessary in the particularly egregious instances. Unlocking ES/FF simply brings all the Clan mechs closer together, because it only buffs the weaker ones.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

and you keep missing the point. All things being equally, no quirks, hitboxes, hardpoints being in the equation, a 75 ton mech will always be better than a 65 ton mech. Because of how the core rules for battletech tonnage work. And in most cases, the 75 tonner will be better than the 80 tonner.

That is not going to change.

Unless we did something like, tried to give the lower tonnage mechs something to be good at that the higher tonnage one's aren't as good at (i.e. quirks or w/e). Bigger doesn't have to be a direct upgrade just because BT said so.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

But there is no reason for the disparities to be so extreme, is EXACTLY the point you seem unable to grasp. For some reason you seem to think the difference in effectiveness between a tier 1 and tier 2 should be night and day. It shouldn't be. The difference between a tier 1 and 2 should be something scarcely noticeable unless you are playing in a pure comp environment, just as the average swimmer gets no real world advantage from high tech swimsuits.

I don't want the difference to be night and day, I want it to be microscopic or entirely nonexistent. In a perfect world there wouldn't even be "tiers" at all. You've seen me post enough by now to know that I hate when certain choices are the clear and undisputed winners over others.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

The difference between a tier 1 and 3, might be noticeable, but at that point should be about Hitboxes, Hardpoints and their locations, and things that cannot really be "fixed", not the basic differences between a 70 tonners paper effectiveness and a 75 tonners, with all other considerations removed.

Hitboxes can be totally fixed, they just require more effort and thus PGI only saves them for emergencies (i.e. original Hellbringer, Kintaro, etc.).

Hardpoints can "technically" be invented at our whim (i.e. PGI's custom Enforcer variant) but they probably won't do that...we can however use Omnipods from the future to add more options. This won't create a tech conflict because we wouldn't be adding the future guns or variants themselves, just the hardpoints (which all have the same "tech" level).

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

A Nova will never be as effective, pre quirks/nerfs as a Stormcrow. It's hitboxes guarantee that. So at that point, quirks can help with the imbalance.

If we had those 8 MG Omnipods McGral found in the game files, along with some hitbox redistribution, I think that the Nova could be extremely vicious in close/medium range and actually able to out-damage a Crow by a big margin (at the cost of less speed and not as much durability).

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

A Summoner, with all things "equal" to a TimberWolf (endo, ferro, max armor, same speed, no jjs, 10 base DHS) will always have .5 tons less to play with.

So the TW is still BETTER , though millimetricly, so.

Except we can give the Thor more/better hardpoints if we dig into the future (i.e. that 8 ballistic arm I mentioned earlier, if wanted to be ultra crazy...), agility, better JJs/mobility, etc. Maybe you wouldn't have as much pod space, but you could bring your guns to bear that much easier than a TBR (if the Thor actually had better mobility than it). It's why I prefer my 4 LPL Warhawk over a Dire Whale, even though most regard the Whale as the current assault king.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

And that's before the other MWO immutables, such as hitboxes (since you can only change the shapes so much before it's not battletech/MW).

As mentioned above, hitboxes aren't immutable, PGI just often hesitates to change them unless it's severe. We aren't changing the shape of the mech model itself, just the distribution of hit locations within that body shape.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

For some reason you seem to equate "better" as some gap like the difference between the Underhive and the GGClose crowd.

MWO has a fairly bipolar history of wild yo-yo swings up and down, with not much territory in between. Although, as mentioned earlier, I'd prefer to try to get rid of that gap entirely (see above).

[F4T 4L]

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

The slow lights aside, low-order Clan mechs all suffer from a lack of ES and/or FF. Thus, unlocking ES/FF would greatly help boost them. From that point, you quirk. Without ES/FF, you just need larger quirks, which serves to move Clan mechs in the same direction as IS mechs, being specialized to certain loadouts.

The lack of ES/FF negates the "clan weapons are lighter" advantage, resulting in mechs with (lasers excepted) much weaker weapons.

I'm not saying not to quirk at all. Quirks will be necessary in the particularly egregious instances. Unlocking ES/FF simply brings all the Clan mechs closer together, because it only buffs the weaker ones.

I see, thanks for clarifying. I doubt that we'll get unlocked FF/ES, though (too many forum noisemaker folk would hate it).

I hope I'm mistaken, though.

Edit "folk" => "forum noisemaker folk"

Edited by F4T 4L, 22 December 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

and yes, you can keep the YAW.... IF YOU RUN LASER VOMIT.

That is what I am arguing against. Every clan emch is already laser vomit, srm vomit. Can we actually have a mech that breaks the monotony?

I'm sick to god with the "huehuehue bring more lazors" to fix everything idea.

Where did I say anything about bring more lasers?


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90ef90bf9cb2af2
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...791db1f9f5f749f

These are not laser vomit, but the lower arm actuator in the dead arm grants you extra yaw than you would have without it.


If you want to use a Ballistic in one arm and a PPC in the other, that's your decision - but your comparisons to the CTF-3D aren't exactly fair as it loses even more torso twist speed to drop down to a 280 engine vs. the Summoners 350 and 2x Ballistics means at least one of those is in the torso anyway.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 December 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 22 December 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Because I very clearly remember you posting in the past for the Timber to be nerfed, and indirectly accusing people of trying to preserve their "easy mode." I'm experiencing a de-sync in what I'd expect you to post, basically.

I also don't really agree with the "let the TBR still be better than everything" position. No, reducing the gap wouldn't solve our issues, not unless the gap was incredibly tiny (no more than "5%" of something of that sort). I find it kind of ironic that people are on one hand asking for equalization, and on the other hand asking for a certain mech to remain superior. It can't be both ways. It's either better or it isn't. Mutual opposites.

I've said from the very beginning, unlocking ES/FF to bring the poor clan mechs up some (and, yes, some quirks after/along side that for the weakest mechs that need it), bringing them all up to within a tier or so of the Timberwolf will make clans too powerful overall. From the very beginning I've said that.

But until the Clan mechs are closer together in terms of balance, you can't make faction-wide adjustments.


So, to be clear:


Step 1: Unlock ES/FF across all Clan mechs. NOT ENGINES. Engines have NO PLACE in this discussion. They are locked, and must remain locked.

Step 2: Quirk the particularly weak mechs, in the cases where ES/FF is insufficient.

Step 3: Implement faction-wide nerf to pull them all down to a reasonable level. This is basically the only really good way to nerf the Timberwolf and Stormcrow without starting a shitstorm. I've repeatedly proposed a 70% max speed with side torso destruction as one step: Think of how that would impact CW.

[The Boz]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Yes, the goal is to make all clan mechs better. The TBR can be best (if you insist) but the poor mechs should not be instantly dismissed because they're _that_ bad.



Ok. Tell me how a summoner (any variant) is better than a TBR-S, in any meaningful way?

Edit, never mind "better". "As good as" is fine.

WHY IN THE EVER LOVING $%€& WOULD WE WANT *MORE* CLAN MECHS TO BE AS BROKEN AS THE TIMBERGOD!?

[Fishbulb333]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Ok. Tell me how a summoner (any variant) is better than a TBR-S, in any meaningful way?

Edit, never mind "better". "As good as" is fine.

This..

Or, how is a summoner as good as / better than the stormcrow, a mech which is 15 tons lighter? Jumpjets and a bit more armor don't really cut it in my book and the crow can fit pretty much any loadout the summoner can and then some.

[F4T 4L]

Fishbulb333, on 22 December 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

This..

Or, how is a summoner as good as / better than the stormcrow, a mech which is 15 tons lighter? Jumpjets and a bit more armor don't really cut it in my book and the crow can fit pretty much any loadout the summoner can and then some.

Redacted. Replied to wrong post!

Edited by F4T 4L, 22 December 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[F4T 4L]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

WHY IN THE EVER LOVING $%€& WOULD WE WANT *MORE* CLAN MECHS TO BE AS BROKEN AS THE TIMBERGOD!?

Ignoring the hyperbole.. aren't you the guy that never even played tbr?

The range of usability of mechs should be reasonably small. All should have strengths and weaknesses. There is currently no reason to choose Summoner er over tbr, none.

Also, in case you missed it, IS just got a huge quirk pass, the gap isn't what it was.

[Wintersdark]

0bsidion, on 22 December 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

That's another kettle of fish though. The reason why you see so much laser vomit and missile vomit on clan mechs is because cACs are fairly underwhelming unless boated, and the only mech that can boat them effectively is the DW. Has anyone seen anyone from PGI even entertain the idea of giving the clan mechs cACs a balance pass? Unless that happens, laser and missile vomit are the only practical options to consider. Believe me, I'm not thrilled about it either. I like to have at least 1 AC, 1 or 2 missile weapons, and 2 to 4 energy, but it just isn't optimal on a Summoner.

That's true, but again: You can't start fixing weapons while the mechs are so out of balance. Make UAC's better, and the strong Clan mechs use them and become even stronger.

Clan UAC's are terrible, even on the Direwolf. You boat them, take 6, and they're still bad but you've still got a hell of a lot of tons there. UAC direwolves are one of the worst of the common builds, and that's why you only see them in random lower-level pug play. Basically, Direwolves run dual gauss + other stuff, pretty much without fail. Dakka direwolves are silly, if fun.

So, yeah, you won't see PGI make a balance pass on the UAC's as things stand, because while it'd help the poor clan mechs, it would make the good ones even better, and they don't want that.

[The Boz]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Ignoring the hyperbole.. aren't you the guy that never even played tbr?

The range of usability of mechs should be reasonably small. All should have strengths and weaknesses. There is currently no reason to choose Summoner er over tbr, none.

Also, in case you missed it, IS just got a huge quirk pass, the gap isn't what it was.

No, I'm the guy that never even BOUGHT a TBR. Have played it.

The range of usability of the mechs *should* be reasonably small (if by "range" you mean "variance", with as few outliers as possible). But the fact that there is no reason to choose a SMN over a TBR is almost entirely the fault of the TBR being godlikealphazetaomegakyoninstagib tier good.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

ES and/or FF won't make Nova's as good as Stormcrows, or Summoners as good as Timberwolves. It'll bring them closer, though.

And you want to bring those poorer mechs up, to allow for a faction-wide change like a severe speed penalty with XL destruction: You bring up the weakest, then bring ALL the clan mechs down. This brings the Timberwolf and Stormcrow more in line with IS mechs, while more or less maintaining the position of the others and improving the particularly bad ones.

Poorer mechs can be brought up in other ways...

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Not sure where you're going with this?

The TBR and SCR lead their classes because of their "optimized" base chassis, yes? The Arctic Cheetah would in a way be the Timberwolf of the light class. It's available since 3037 too, so no timeline conflicts. To get into specifics...

Weight: 30 tons (not 35 tons, but workable)
Internal Structure: Endo
Armor Type: FF
Pod space: 8.5 tons (with max armor)
Engine: XL240 (top speed 142 kph with Speed Tweak)
Hardwired equipment: 6 JJs (more than most people would want, but for lights JJs are more useful than other classes)
Heatsinks: 10 hardwired (only 1 external "Poordub")
Hardpoints:
Prime: 4E + 2M + ECM
Alt A: 2E + 2M (sub-par variant)
Alt B: 1B + 2E (fairly bad variant)
Alt C: 7E
Alt D: 1E + 2M (fairly bad variant)

Even if we got the "bad" alternate variants, the Prime is still a beast so it wouldn't matter.

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

...
The "slippery slope" argument is terrible. Really terrible. Unlocking ES/FF has no bearing on Engines - it's neither more nor less likely that engines would end up being unlocked either way. Just because ES is unlocked doesn't mean engines need to be. Note that not a single person in this thread is advocating unlocking engines.
...

And my point was that there would still be hardwired inequalities present no matter what we choose to unlock. Reduced, yes, but not eliminated.

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

But in practice, as we can clearly see, weapon specific quirks result in that weapon being used. Yeah, a HBK-4G can mount a Gauss Rifle, and it's Gauss Rifle will see bonuses from the generic quirks.

How many 4G's do you see with Gauss Rifles?

Except you ARE going full meta. It's just that with weapon specific quirks, there isn't a "this loadout is meta" anymore, it's a meta build per chassis. I do like that - I think it's awesome for Inner Sphere. Instead of just AC5's and PPC's (yeah, it'd be different now, but you know what I mean) you see all sorts of things. A CN9-D with an LBX10 is a meta build. Just for that mech.

The same will happen for Clan mechs if you give them weapon specific quirks. You'll just create a new meta build for that specific chassis.

...

What I meant was that much of the time, the default weapon coincidentally has inherit weaknesses that cause it to be cast aside for whatever reason (i.e. that LB 10-X on the Centy). Or a Thor's ERPPC (after the nerfs), etc. The point of the quirks would be to try to make up for those weaknesses.


Also, you missed the part at the end where I said that it was mostly a spitballing attempt, and some other stuff about why we're even having this conversion in the first place.

Fuddy Duddy said:

Anyways, the "only weapon specific" thing was mostly just a spitballing idea to attempt to differentiate their quirks from Battlemechs. It can be maybe done other ways maybe.

---------------------------------

On a side note, part of why this debate is even happening at all is because of the imbalances regarding Endo vs Standard Structure and Clan FF versus Standard Armor (IS is the other way around with FF being actually inferior to STD armor). If STD internals weren't outright inferior on 99% of mechs, this wouldn't be as much of an issue in the first place.

So, STD internals could probably stand to see an internal HP increase of some amount so that it's not inferior to Endo in almost all situations.

FF is harder to tackle because Clan FF is actually good on the majority of mechs but IS FF is nearly useless outside of the light class. IS FF should see either a damage resistance bonus of some amount or an increase in the total armor limit you could carry. Carrying that over to the Clans though not work out since, as mentioned, Clan FF is a lot more viable than IS FF (but still outclassed by Endo).

[Wintersdark]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

WHY IN THE EVER LOVING $%€& WOULD WE WANT *MORE* CLAN MECHS TO BE AS BROKEN AS THE TIMBERGOD!?

Because if the rest of the Clan mechs where CLOSER to what the Timberwolf is, then faction wide changes can be made to bring all clan mechs in line with the IS mechs, including the Timberwolf.


I thought we'd already established this earlier in the thread?

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

No, I'm the guy that never even BOUGHT a TBR. Have played it.

The range of usability of the mechs *should* be reasonably small (if by "range" you mean "variance", with as few outliers as possible). But the fact that there is no reason to choose a SMN over a TBR is almost entirely the fault of the TBR being godlikealphazetaomegakyoninstagib tier good.

You never bought one, so you don't know how frustating the system can be to create the Omnimech who will work on the battlefield.
Try buying a Summoner, and have fun with trying to find a good build for it...

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Because if the rest of the Clan mechs where CLOSER to what the Timberwolf is, then faction wide changes can be made to bring all clan mechs in line with the IS mechs, including the Timberwolf.


I thought we'd already established this earlier in the thread?

That guy is one of the dumbest troll you can find on the forum sadly. You would have better chance speaking to a wall sadly.

[Jacon Ceronia]

You guys are serious with the pitchforks over this? I love my Summoner, and this wasn't even that great of a match...

[KuroNyra]

Jacon Ceronia, on 22 December 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

You guys are serious with the pitchforks over this? I love my Summoner, and this wasn't even that great of a match...

Prequirck: "Hey look, I did fine with my Locust so that fine is completly on pair with the others!"