1236 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Speak of the devil... I said Cataphract and we'll be reminded this weekend as it is a reference point to the Summoner referendum.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Speak of the devil... I said Cataphract and we'll be reminded this weekend as it is a reference point to the Summoner referendum.

and yet, still twice as effective as a Summoner, on average.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 January 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

and yet, still twice as effective as a Summoner, on average.

I disagree.

I'll have a post ready when I get the chance.

The summation is this though...

The Cataphract is less durable than the Summoner in general, due in part with Clan XL.

The Cataphract is more capable of poptarting (with FLD) and will often be better than the Summoner at that.

Otherwise, the Summoner is better, preferably at close range. The best "Summoner long range build" tends to work much better than the Cataphract equivalent (whether or not the Cataphract is using XL due to the different tradeoffs, leaving the Cataphract generally worse with either option).

So, I'll leave it at that for now.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 January 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 19 January 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

I disagree.

I'll have a post ready when I get the chance.

The summation is this though...

The Cataphract is less durable than the Summoner in general, due in part with Clan XL.

The Cataphract is more capable of poptarting (with FLD) and will often be better than the Summoner at that.

Otherwise, the Summoner is better, preferably at close range. The best "Summoner long range build" tends to work much better than the Cataphract equivalent (whether or not the Cataphract is using XL due to the different tradeoffs, leaving the Cataphract generally worse with either option).

So, I'll leave it at that for now.

It's almost always slower, if it's not slower it has sacrificed firepower.

It is also almost always more fragile, if not then it has sacrificed firepower and potentially even more speed.


This is basically about as good as it gets for the CTF-3D, notice how many JJs it needs:





Notice that speed, it's...the same speed as a Warhawk. Which is laughable.


It's fragile, it's slow vs. every clan heavy, and even vs. clan assaults.

It's best range is 500m or so.


As I've said before, even with it's handful of design flaws the Summoner is the better mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

It's almost always slower, if it's not slower it has sacrificed firepower.

It is also almost always more fragile, if not then it has sacrificed firepower and potentially even more speed.


This is basically about as good as it gets for the CTF-3D, notice how many JJs it needs:





Notice that speed, it's...the same speed as a Warhawk. Which is laughable.


It's fragile, it's slow vs. every clan heavy, and even vs. clan assaults.

It's best range is 500m or so.


As I've said before, even with it's handful of design flaws the Summoner is the better mech.

yes, when one intentionally builds as wasteful as that, it is indeed easy to see where a Summoner would be better......
Except of course, the CTF has access to substantially superior PP-FLD, and the speed is only a large advantage, situationally.

Or I could build it a tad hotter (though well within acceptable limits) and run a stand engine, for the same PP-FLD
CTF-3D

but whatever.

[Golden Vulf]

Deathlike, on 19 January 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

I disagree.

I'll have a post ready when I get the chance.

The summation is this though...

The Cataphract is less durable than the Summoner in general, due in part with Clan XL.

The Cataphract is more capable of poptarting (with FLD) and will often be better than the Summoner at that.

Otherwise, the Summoner is better, preferably at close range. The best "Summoner long range build" tends to work much better than the Cataphract equivalent (whether or not the Cataphract is using XL due to the different tradeoffs, leaving the Cataphract generally worse with either option).

So, I'll leave it at that for now.

How does having a STD engine equipped make you less durable than a clan XL?

The only thing the Summoner has on the Cataphract is speed. The speed makes it better in close range, but it loses to other IS brawlers if it tries to close in on a cataphract that stays near team mates. The Cataphract is also much more heat efficient. It can take pin point damage auto cannons and has the tonnage to take enough ammo for it while still having enough room for 4 medium lasers and some heat sinks. It can dump jump jets for more room.

If the Cataphract elects to take the less durable XL engine, it can take dual gauss, unlike the Summoner.

The Hellbringer is better at ballistics than the Summoner.

Even with the new omnipods, not having endo steel means you can't make use of the new hard points if you don't want to spend most of the match over heating.

I still think the Cataphract 3D could use a few minor quirks. Just 5% generic bonuses to a couple things, Ballistic and energy heat generation, energy range, ballistic velocity.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 19 January 2015 - 06:03 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

yes, when one intentionally builds as wasteful as that...

That's a pretty standard build amongst competitive players.

You can like it, or not like it, but it's efficient in it's design and has better sustainability than yours.


Yours is travelling at 71kph, with 11 DHS to run 2x PPCs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 January 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

That's a pretty standard build amongst competitive players.

You can like it, or not like it, but it's efficient in it's design and has better sustainability than yours.


Yours is travelling at 71kph, with 11 DHS to run 2x PPCs.

hard to sustain anything after your XL pops, I believe is your contention?

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

hard to sustain anything after your XL pops, I believe is your contention?

You take your pick, one build has XL fragility.

The other has poor sustained fire and lower DPS.

Both of them are (comparatively) slow.

I personally think the Summoner is better than both, most of that is just raw survivability + speed from clan XL.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 January 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 January 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

You take your pick, one build has XL fragility.

The other has poor sustained fire and lower DPS.

Both of them are (comparatively) slow.

I personally think the Summoner is better than both, most of that is just raw survivability + speed from clan XL.

and the summoners durability is compromised in all but a couple instances by DoT weapons, which it cannot come close to matching the CTFs PPFLD. And those are build like the Splatonner

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 January 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

and the summoners durability is compromised in all but a couple instances by DoT weapons, which it cannot come close to matching the CTFs PPFLD. And those are build like the Splatonner

PPFLD builds like the CTF-3D is old meta for the most part, which is exemplified in the issues the CTF has.

Gauss + CERPPC might be a slightly lower alpha, but the Gauss is a better weapon than the AC 10 in many ways - that is enough pinpoint + enough other advantages (massively better speed, agility and to an extent better jumping indirectly derived from that, better survivability vs. XL versions - and interestingly it also has ballistic and energy quirks the CTF can't match) for me to say the Summoner can go toe to toe with the CTF-3D.




The two are not far from each other, the Summoner has a lot of clear advantages imo and is not nearly as bad as you are making it out - it needs a few small tweaks, and it already has a nice dollop of quirks, including unique ones, and is quite likely one of the most agile heavy mechs in the game right now.



The CTF-3D is most certainly not "twice as effective on average" as the Summoner.

[Deathlike]

Golden Vulf, on 19 January 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

How does having a STD engine equipped make you less durable than a clan XL?

The only thing the Summoner has on the Cataphract is speed. The speed makes it better in close range, but it loses to other IS brawlers if it tries to close in on a cataphract that stays near team mates. The Cataphract is also much more heat efficient. It can take pin point damage auto cannons and has the tonnage to take enough ammo for it while still having enough room for 4 medium lasers and some heat sinks. It can dump jump jets for more room.

If the Cataphract elects to take the less durable XL engine, it can take dual gauss, unlike the Summoner.

The Hellbringer is better at ballistics than the Summoner.

Even with the new omnipods, not having endo steel means you can't make use of the new hard points if you don't want to spend most of the match over heating.

I still think the Cataphract 3D could use a few minor quirks. Just 5% generic bonuses to a couple things, Ballistic and energy heat generation, energy range, ballistic velocity.

I should have been more specific.

If you want more firepower, you will very likely end up taking XL on the Cataphract to compete with the Summoner.

If you want the same level of durability of the Summoner, your firepower options are generally going to be crippled in comparison.

The Summoner is better at ballistics IMO due to JJs. The Hellbringer does't worry about that and relies on its ECM to level the field. I would still personally use the Hellbringer over the Summoner any day though.

I don't focus on speed, since the Summoner wins that matchup... but what affects it more is torso twist speed. The Summoner has exceptional torso twist speed naturally just by definition (large engine) in that it allows to shield itself better (well, that an the arms, but the majority of the its weapons are on the arms - the Cataphract isn't exactly dependent on them).

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

yes, when one intentionally builds as wasteful as that, it is indeed easy to see where a Summoner would be better......
Except of course, the CTF has access to substantially superior PP-FLD, and the speed is only a large advantage, situationally.

Or I could build it a tad hotter (though well within acceptable limits) and run a stand engine, for the same PP-FLD
CTF-3D

but whatever.

I don't find that particular build acceptable.. only because of heat concerns (11DHS is too few for me at this point in time) but it has a major dependency on teammates. Yes, I'm aware this is a team oriented game, but I honestly hate being captive by this kinda of weakness (unable to be self-sufficient). At least the meta Dragon Slayer has a lot more usable DHS... this is just not as appealing.

I would agree it would be fine competitively (it's specialized by design), but you can't honestly suggest it for the normal "average" PUG play.

[Detriitus]

I just don't get it: What is this "new" Summoner-Variant supposed to change?

Seans sneak peak

Edited by Detriitus, 20 January 2015 - 05:29 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Detriitus, on 20 January 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

I just don't get it: What is this "new" Summoner-Variant supposed to change?

Seans sneak peak

LOL, 3 JJ C1 on the Direwhale? Yeah, and that is going be totally useless haha...

I would still rather have the clan quirk pass....I think..

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 20 January 2015 - 05:35 AM.

[kapusta11]

How exactly is Cataphract better than Summoner? Dual Gauss? It's slower, more fragile and Summoner can close in pretty fast to negate range advantage. AC10+2xPPC? It's still slower, operates at the same ranges Summoner does and is way too hot.

Edited by kapusta11, 20 January 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Detriitus, on 20 January 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

I just don't get it: What is this "new" Summoner-Variant supposed to change?

Seans sneak peak

This sneak peak made me sad. How is Russ hoping this will help Clans in CW? Most of these builds are ****.

Adder with 1 ballistics in its arm? Should I be imperssed? It already has a ballistics hardpoint and doesn't have tonnage for 2 ballistic weapons. You can take 2 MGs but then you need to take 2 big energy weapons you, guess what, don't have the tonnage for! Pointless.
Ice Ferret... is these some change? All I see are more meaningless omnipods, perhaps I missed something.

Mad Dog! Now this is a jewel. Is a Mech with 76 missing armor points, 2 gausses and whooping 40 gauss slugs supposed to impress us?! It is horrible! Absolutely horrible! Not even close to what Jagers/Cataphracts can do.

Moving on, Mist Lynx pretending to be a KF. Nice try but pointless, who wants tripple AMS takes KF that can still have more punch than ML. Useless Mech, it can't do anything except dying, even jesusbox wouldn't help much. This mech needs quirks to make up for poor hardpoints, bad upgrade combination and stock equipment.

Nova, SCR, Summoner, Warhawk - nothing new here, move along.

Last jest: a Timby! The very same build we can already run today. Somehow this is supposed to be good and shiny... but it isn't, it is as ordinary as it can get. Sorry. Weren't we supposed to get a Timby with 8 missile slots or something? This one is as ordinary as it can get.

Juicy things? DW and Gargoyle. DW has many energy hardpoints which should be useful, plus JJs. Gargoyle can now properly boat small lasers, making Nova feel even worse.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 20 January 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mordin Ashe, on 20 January 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

This sneak peak made me sad. How is Russ hoping this will help Clans in CW? Most of these builds are ****.

Adder with 1 ballistics in its arm? Should I be imperssed? It already has a ballistics hardpoint and doesn't have tonnage for 2 ballistic weapons. You can take 2 MGs but then you need to take 2 big energy weapons you, guess what, don't have the tonnage for! Pointless.
Ice Ferret... is these some change? All I see are more meaningless omnipods, perhaps I missed something.

Mad Dog! Now this is a jewel. Is a Mech with 76 missing armor points, 2 gausses and whooping 40 gauss slugs supposed to impress us?! It is horrible! Absolutely horrible! Not even close to what Jagers/Cataphracts can do.

Moving on, Mist Lynx pretending to be a KF. Nice try but pointless, who wants tripple AMS takes KF that can still have more punch than ML. Useless Mech, it can't do anything except dying, even jesusbox wouldn't help much. This mech needs quirks to make up for poor hardpoints, bad upgrade combination and stock equipment.

Nova, SCR, Summoner, Warhawk - nothing new here, move along.

Last jest: a Timby! The very same build we can already run today. Somehow this is supposed to be good and shiny... but it isn't, it is as ordinary as it can get. Sorry. Weren't we supposed to get a Timby with 8 missile slots or something? This one is as ordinary as it can get.

Juicy things? DW and Gargoyle. DW has many energy hardpoints which should be useful, plus JJs. Gargoyle can now properly boat small lasers, making Nova feel even worse.

Only thing about all those energy hardpoints, we still dont have DHS 2.0s...so, sure, pack in those extra lasers, shut down twice as fast and make the IS kill you half as easy.......

Clan quirk pass? that would be alot more useful, provided Clan quirks dont suck. A nice universal 20% Heat dissipation buff for all Clan mechs would be nice.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mordin Ashe, on 20 January 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

This sneak peak made me sad. How is Russ hoping this will help Clans in CW? Most of these builds are ****.

Adder with 1 ballistics in its arm? Should I be imperssed? It already has a ballistics hardpoint and doesn't have tonnage for 2 ballistic weapons. You can take 2 MGs but then you need to take 2 big energy weapons you, guess what, don't have the tonnage for! Pointless.
Ice Ferret... is these some change? All I see are more meaningless omnipods, perhaps I missed something.

Mad Dog! Now this is a jewel. Is a Mech with 76 missing armor points, 2 gausses and whooping 40 gauss slugs supposed to impress us?! It is horrible! Absolutely horrible! Not even close to what Jagers/Cataphracts can do.

Moving on, Mist Lynx pretending to be a KF. Nice try but pointless, who wants tripple AMS takes KF that can still have more punch than ML. Useless Mech, it can't do anything except dying, even jesusbox wouldn't help much. This mech needs quirks to make up for poor hardpoints, bad upgrade combination and stock equipment.

Nova, SCR, Summoner, Warhawk - nothing new here, move along.

Last jest: a Timby! The very same build we can already run today. Somehow this is supposed to be good and shiny... but it isn't, it is as ordinary as it can get. Sorry. Weren't we supposed to get a Timby with 8 missile slots or something? This one is as ordinary as it can get.

Juicy things? DW and Gargoyle. DW has many energy hardpoints which should be useful, plus JJs. Gargoyle can now properly boat small lasers, making Nova feel even worse.

Not quite as bad as you make out.. and in a lot of cases PGI are heavily restricted by available variants - SMN is the worst offender, they could at least have put the variant with the LT E point in.

The SCR gets a 4E arm, allowing 4x SRM + 4xML.. minor boost.
The WHK gets a CT energy point, increasing max E count to 6. Cant be used on the Prime (i) though
DW gains the most with those high mounted E slots and JJs
Gargy gets a 6E arm but its still terrible so whatever.
Ice Ferret gets a 2E right arm, which helps a lot actually.. still a bad mech though.
Timber gets 2M STs with no fixed JJs, allowing you to build quad missile variants with a bit more ammo/cooling

Mist Lynx, Nova, Mad Dog, Summoner and Adder get nothing of use.

Kit fox isnt shown, but assuming we get the rest of the 'C' variant then it gets a small boost - allowing 3MPL+ECM+4MG for example. the A or B variants add nothing of use.

[Mordin Ashe]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 January 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

Not quite as bad as you make out.. and in a lot of cases PGI are heavily restricted by available variants - SMN is the worst offender, they could at least have put the variant with the LT E point in.

The SCR gets a 4E arm, allowing 4x SRM + 4xML.. minor boost.
The WHK gets a CT energy point, increasing max E count to 6. Cant be used on the Prime (i) though
DW gains the most with those high mounted E slots and JJs
Gargy gets a 6E arm but its still terrible so whatever.
Ice Ferret gets a 2E right arm, which helps a lot actually.. still a bad mech though.
Timber gets 2M STs with no fixed JJs, allowing you to build quad missile variants with a bit more ammo/cooling

Mist Lynx, Nova, Mad Dog, Summoner and Adder get nothing of use.

Kit fox isnt shown, but assuming we get the rest of the 'C' variant then it gets a small boost - allowing 3MPL+ECM+4MG for example. the A or B variants add nothing of use.

Perhaps I made it sound bad but what you wrote doesn't really convince me about my wrong doing. Few good things and many useless things. The problem is, Russ said on town hall that these mechs are supposed to change things enough that they are waiting with Clan quirks for their implementation. Nothing I see is even remotely empowering, scratch the DW. I feel cheated because most of it is actually trash, generic omnipods with no purpose whatsoever. Far from what Russ led me (us?) to believe.

It makes me sad that Russ understands Mech balance so little and set up their actions on this questionable understanding. Not a single of these Mechs is a game changer, as any even remotely skilled player could have told him that. Why the wait with the most crucial IS:Clan balance factor for these good-for-nothings? I just don't get it.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mordin Ashe, on 20 January 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Perhaps I made it sound bad but what you wrote doesn't really convince me about my wrong doing. Few good things and many useless things. The problem is, Russ said on town hall that these mechs are supposed to change things enough that they are waiting with Clan quirks for their implementation. Nothing I see is even remotely empowering, scratch the DW. I feel cheated because most of it is actually trash, generic omnipods with no purpose whatsoever. Far from what Russ led me (us?) to believe.

It makes me sad that Russ understands Mech balance so little and set up their actions on this questionable understanding. Not a single of these Mechs is a game changer, as any even remotely skilled player could have told him that. Why the wait with the most crucial IS:Clan balance factor for these good-for-nothings? I just don't get it.

Sticking with timeline variants they actually had very little choice..

Warhawk thats the only one left.
Kitfox the C is the only useful one left.
GAR we got the best one
DWF we could have had the C with ECM and JJs.. not too sure thats a good idea..
SCR we could have had a 6E arm, but again.. not sure it needs it.
TBR we could have had the 3E LT in the missile pod mount but that would be OP. very OP.

Gotta go home from work now but you get the point. Nothing PGI can do other than quirks can really save the bad omnimechs, they just need to release the good ones (Ebon Jag, Huntman, Arctic Cheetah, Viper, Shadowcat, Kingfisher)