451 replies to this topic

[Shredhead]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 January 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

Id argue that point.

TDR-9S

2.5kph slower (i.e. nothing), 1 more heatsink - its not worse for sure, id argue that its better. Main reason everyone uses the 300 is that they don't want to buy a 290, imo.

Meh, you need those arms to soak up damage, 5 armor on them seems just too weak, but that's for me. And that one additional heatsink doesn't add much. I think it's either the 275 variant or mine.

[SweetJackal]

Just a few things.

The 3 ERPPC 9S isn't as good as the old 4 PPC Stalker. The Stalker had more firepower, better heat management and all of it's weapons being high mounted weapons.

Mounting 3 ERPPCs on the 9S requires more sacrifice to the energy hardpoints you'll use.

The 9S as an ERPPC boat is boring and is much more demanding of your aim to hit smaller, fast moving objects.

The IS ERPPC is a weapon that isn't giving any real benefit over the IS PPC, the extra heat cost isn't worth it in most situations and builds.

Personally I find the 9S to perform better all-round with 2 ERPPCs and 3 MPLs than 3 ERPPCs straight up. Feels like a more effective use of tonnage and hardpoints.

[operatorZ]

John80sk, on 03 January 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

Frankly, if you folks ran less LRM's and more ER Large and Gauss builds you wouldn't have any trouble trading with Thuds. The pinpoint might be less, but the alpha is 2-3x that of the Thunderbolt.

This is the same thing that happens with the Clans are OP stuff. People running bad builds against good builds. Min/maxed the Thud is no better than a min/maxed Hellbringer or Timberwolf.

pwnface, on 03 January 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

4xERLL TBR and HBR are on par with TDR9S. Stop throwing lrms and medium lasers then complaining on the forums about being out sniped.

Regardless of where you stand on TDR...the above assertions are blatantly false...

lasers....specifically clan lasers with long duration times are no match for front loaded, pin point damage of PPC's or Gauss, at all but extreme ranges. This should be obvious to anybody who has played both.

[Joseph Mallan]

WarHippy, on 05 January 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

All I know is I loved my 9S before the quirks and you people called it trash, and now it has quirks that are based off of you people calling it trash but still you complain. Did it get over buffed? Maybe, but that is only because you all insisted it was complete crap for so long when it never really was. I say you reap what you sow and need to learn to live with the consequences for awhile.

WarHippy, on 05 January 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

All I know is I loved my 9S before the quirks and you people called it trash, and now it has quirks that are based off of you people calling it trash but still you complain. Did it get over buffed? Maybe, but that is only because you all insisted it was complete crap for so long when it never really was. I say you reap what you sow and need to learn to live with the consequences for awhile.

I loved this post some much I had to quote it twice! Players were given what they asked for and now other players are mad! THIS IS WHY IT TAKES SO LONG TO GET ANYTHING DONE!!!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 January 2015 - 07:33 AM.

[operatorZ]

Golden Vulf, on 04 January 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

People are purchasing and fielding multiple 9S variants in a single drop.

When instead of a different IS mech, they just buy another copy of one they already have, means the other IS are not as good in comparison.

The Timberwolf and Stormcrow are better than any other clan mechs, but IS calls for a nerf for them.

Well the Thunderbolt 9S is better than any other IS mech, so by IS logic it needs a nerf.

I play the TBR.....but I could see some nerfs on it....its nowhere near the OPness of the the 9S though....

Let me put it this way....the competitive teams who do or did play clans, don't drop in all the same mech with all the same load out...

yet..recently all the teams are running a lot of 9S's with the same load out....there is in fact only one reason this happens...and that is because it is OP...the proof is in the spamming of the tactic....these teams aren't stupid...they aren't just running this build because its fun....

[meteorol]

SuckyJack, on 05 January 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

The 9S as an ERPPC boat is boring

Absolutely the best argument when discussing balance.

SuckyJack, on 05 January 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

The IS ERPPC is a weapon that isn't giving any real benefit over the IS PPC, the extra heat cost isn't worth it in most situations and builds.

Do you realize that the ER PPC used on the 9S only costs 7.5 heat, compared to 10 of a regular PPC?

[Zoid]

operatorZ, on 05 January 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

Regardless of where you stand on TDR...the above assertions are blatantly false...

lasers....specifically clan lasers with long duration times are no match for front loaded, pin point damage of PPC's or Gauss, at all but extreme ranges. This should be obvious to anybody who has played both.

The ERPPC has a velocity of 1050 m/s. The Clan ERLL has a duration of 1.5s. So in the time it takes for a PPC to reach a target at max optimal range, over half the duration of the ERLL has already finished. Plus lasers can actually hit fast targets that are actively trying to dodge at range.

They are advantages to both, but you're an idiot if you think the clan ERLL is "no match" for a TDR with ERPPCs.

The simple reason you hate it so much is that it's a HARD COUNTER to your laser vomit builds that eat everything else. You can't dodge very easily while focusing those ERLL and so you're a great target for something with PPCs.

[Brody319]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

The ERPPC has a velocity of 1050 m/s. The Clan ERLL has a duration of 1.5s. So in the time it takes for a PPC to reach a target at max optimal range, over half the duration of the ERLL has already finished. Plus lasers can actually hit fast targets that are actively trying to dodge at range.

They are advantages to both, but you're an idiot if you think the clan ERLL is "no match" for a TDR with ERPPCs.

The simple reason you hate it so much is that it's a HARD COUNTER to your laser vomit builds that eat everything else. You can't dodge very easily while focusing those ERLL and so you're a great target for something with PPCs.

the 9S's PPC velocity buffs means that PPC flies as fast as an AC5 round.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 05 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Yes to reducing the heat quirks on the 9s (even better, remove the ERPPC heat reduction, and leave it with just 25% energy heat reduction).

However, the problem lies more with the modes and maps of CW. Comps use the 9S not because its the best IS mech, but because its the best IS mech for the maps/modes available for CW. If CW had more diverse objectives, and if the maps were better designed to encourage a mix of engagement options instead of more or less just long range engagements (or even if their were several maps that were horrible for long range attacks that were mixed into the random pool), then the 9s wouldn't be a problem.

What people are experiencing are a compressed/limited set of variables that encourage one style of combat. The 9S just happens to be the IS mech best suited for those set of conditions.

Need proof for the above statements? Look at whats used in the non CW modes, whether group or solo queue.

TLDR: Diversify the conditions of CW, and the 9s is no longer the lynchpin issue thats drawing so much rancor in the forums.

Duplicate post for duplicate threads.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 January 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

You do realize that 2x ER-PPC with TWENTY-FOUR (24) DHS runs incredibly cool and can fire at the same rate that a TDR-9S pilot would realistically use at sniping ranges, right?

Almost, but not quite. My Loki is mastered, while my Thud is only basic'ed.

The Loki can fire 5 volleys before overheating, or 10 ERPPCs. The Thud can fire 12 until overheating, faster, with a faster travels speed and yes, two of the mounts are higher, with 3 ERPPCs VS 2.

That's while having 10 less DHS. My Thud has a heat cap of 61.16, and a dissipation rate of 2.752 H/s.

The mastered Loki has 24 DHS, so a cap of 83.52 and a dissipation of 4.554 H/s.


It's a 25% heat spike for 2 ERPPCs on the Thud, or a 40% spike for the Loki. It generates, quite literally, half the heat. Then it has a 3rd ERPPC to fire to generate less heat than the Loki, for more pinpoint damage.

For comparison, a Thud with 2 ERPPCs and 20 DHS can fire 24 ERPPCs straight without overheating. If mastered, I have no doubt it could fire 26.


Pretty damned ridiculous.

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 January 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[operatorZ]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

The ERPPC has a velocity of 1050 m/s. The Clan ERLL has a duration of 1.5s. So in the time it takes for a PPC to reach a target at max optimal range, over half the duration of the ERLL has already finished. Plus lasers can actually hit fast targets that are actively trying to dodge at range.

They are advantages to both, but you're an idiot if you think the clan ERLL is "no match" for a TDR with ERPPCs.

The simple reason you hate it so much is that it's a HARD COUNTER to your laser vomit builds that eat everything else. You can't dodge very easily while focusing those ERLL and so you're a great target for something with PPCs.

sorry...but your are wrong. Your premise assumes that the the guy firing the ERPPC's sits there and watches his shot hit......sigh....

The velocity buffs of the TDR 9S get that ERPPC up to 1280 ish m/s and once you fire those PPCs you can than move or not even stop while firing...very little time to get damage out of the clan 1.5 sec burn time Llaser. I can effectively target and hit you with a PPC in less than .5 seconds with two ERPPC's thats 20 damage vs. large lasers at <.5 sec of damage and spread damage to boot.....? Plus when you add in the cooling perks, all other things being equal, even if the clan mech could deal as much damage it would overheat before the TDR if it was firing LLasers. period.

you're dreaming....

[KuroNyra]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

The ERPPC has a velocity of 1050 m/s. The Clan ERLL has a duration of 1.5s. So in the time it takes for a PPC to reach a target at max optimal range, over half the duration of the ERLL has already finished. Plus lasers can actually hit fast targets that are actively trying to dodge at range.

They are advantages to both, but you're an idiot if you think the clan ERLL is "no match" for a TDR with ERPPCs.

The simple reason you hate it so much is that it's a HARD COUNTER to your laser vomit builds that eat everything else. You can't dodge very easily while focusing those ERLL and so you're a great target for something with PPCs.

You do realise the ER PPC of the Thunderbolt are flying at the speed of a AC/5 bullet?
You do realise you basicly say it take half the time for a PPC to hit his target and deal his damage while the laser still have to focus his fire for 0.75 second more?
And considering a PPC is a Fire'n'Forget gun, once you have fired you can directly turn your torso and spread the damage.
Things a Laser CANNOT do.

Surely you should be able to understand.



It's incredible, you are each time volontary forgeting part that completly change the "duel" and in EACH CASE, it only proove more and renforce the fact that a ER PPC fired from a Thunderbolt 9S got definitive advantage against any other kind of weapons except maybe gauss.
It's pretty obvious you are one of theses so called "cry babies" who don't want to see there toys changed.

[Bidetlol]

all this IS vs CLAN and CLAN vs IS shitstorm is just ridiculous.
90% of this topic is just IS or CLAN rage without any kind of arguments behind it.



The truth is: popular mechs tend to be the best mechs. And, mechs that are outrageously more popular tend to be OP.
Simple as that.


thats why you can see : Timberwolf and sotrmcrow are the best, and TDR9s is actually OP in his role.

[Zoid]

Brody319, on 05 January 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

the 9S's PPC velocity buffs means that PPC flies as fast as an AC5 round.

A whopping 15%. You're still dealing around half the damage of the ERLL in the time it takes for the ERPPC to reach the target.

Again, the simple fact of the matter is that the TDR 9S counters the ERLL clan builds that would otherwise dominate CW. It's the only thing that can match their range and DPS. Even then, you've got to really stack them. I ran into a 9 man team (I was on their side) defending on the snow map. All of them took the 9S to begin with. When something would show up, at least 4 or 5 would shoot it quickly.

The thing is though, it took quite a few volleys from 4-5 'mechs to kill anything that was properly twisting. Meanwhile, 2 TBRs and a SCR came through at once and shot one guy and he just went down. We only lost 4 or 5 'mechs total that game but that was one.

I'd really like to see what would happen if we stuck 12 TDR 9S against 6 TBRs and 6 SCRs (so the tonnage is the same) on some wide open map.

[Brody319]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

A whopping 15%. You're still dealing around half the damage of the ERLL in the time it takes for the ERPPC to reach the target.

Again, the simple fact of the matter is that the TDR 9S counters the ERLL clan builds that would otherwise dominate CW. It's the only thing that can match their range and DPS. Even then, you've got to really stack them. I ran into a 9 man team (I was on their side) defending on the snow map. All of them took the 9S to begin with. When something would show up, at least 4 or 5 would shoot it quickly.

The thing is though, it took quite a few volleys from 4-5 'mechs to kill anything that was properly twisting. Meanwhile, 2 TBRs and a SCR came through at once and shot one guy and he just went down. We only lost 4 or 5 'mechs total that game but that was one.

I'd really like to see what would happen if we stuck 12 TDR 9S against 6 TBRs and 6 SCRs (so the tonnage is the same) on some wide open map.

yea and when the enemy twists and you spread half your damage with that ERLLs (btw IS has ERLLs too you dip) the PPC does its full damage up front. Directly where you are aiming instantly with no if ands or buts about it.

There is a reason people consistantly use PPCs over LPLs or LLs despite the numbers showing up as in the favor of the ERLLs.

[operatorZ]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

A whopping 15%. You're still dealing around half the damage of the ERLL in the time it takes for the ERPPC to reach the target.

Again, the simple fact of the matter is that the TDR 9S counters the ERLL clan builds that would otherwise dominate CW. It's the only thing that can match their range and DPS. Even then, you've got to really stack them. I ran into a 9 man team (I was on their side) defending on the snow map. All of them took the 9S to begin with. When something would show up, at least 4 or 5 would shoot it quickly.

The thing is though, it took quite a few volleys from 4-5 'mechs to kill anything that was properly twisting. Meanwhile, 2 TBRs and a SCR came through at once and shot one guy and he just went down. We only lost 4 or 5 'mechs total that game but that was one.

I'd really like to see what would happen if we stuck 12 TDR 9S against 6 TBRs and 6 SCRs (so the tonnage is the same) on some wide open map.

seen it all day yesterday....not even close...not even close

and read the well reasoned arguments above as to why your are wrong....

[KuroNyra]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

A whopping 15%. You're still dealing around half the damage of the ERLL in the time it takes for the ERPPC to reach the target.

Again, the simple fact of the matter is that the TDR 9S counters the ERLL clan builds that would otherwise dominate CW. It's the only thing that can match their range and DPS. Even then, you've got to really stack them. I ran into a 9 man team (I was on their side) defending on the snow map. All of them took the 9S to begin with. When something would show up, at least 4 or 5 would shoot it quickly.

The thing is though, it took quite a few volleys from 4-5 'mechs to kill anything that was properly twisting. Meanwhile, 2 TBRs and a SCR came through at once and shot one guy and he just went down. We only lost 4 or 5 'mechs total that game but that was one.

I'd really like to see what would happen if we stuck 12 TDR 9S against 6 TBRs and 6 SCRs (so the tonnage is the same) on some wide open map.

That will depends on lots of things.
Mixed configuration is always better than a complete group of the same variant. You take 6 stormcrow, if all of them are equiped in the Splatcrow configuration, they will be able to do monstruous damage once they reached the Thunderbolts.
If they are not, they will need to have a very good aim or targets weakpoints like the legs.
Same goes for the Timber Wolves.

In a duel, the bigger mech will most of the time always have an advantage. The quircks.
The Thunderbolts act extremely good at long range, and when they are not focused, they can deal monstruous amount of damage in a short time. But if one is focused. He will have a bad time.

A thunderbolt 9S is not superior to a Timber Wolf or a Stormcrow, heck no, nor it his inferior to them.
He got his own strenght who make it an outstanding battlemech absolutly deadly on the battlefield with no real equal for his term of fight. The Long Range battle. He is the kind of long range battles at the moments thanks to the quircks. While the Storm Crow and Timber Wolf are better jack of all trade and if the Stormcrow is monstrous in his SplatCrow config thanks to his speed and his resistance. The Timber Wolf got Resistance, Speed, and Nice firepower. There drawback are set on the weapons, especially AC/ and Energy weapons. LRMS are not a wise choice and are easier to destroy thanks to there stream-instead-of-in-one-salvo.

Theses 3 mech need all a tuned down to make them closer in effectiveness to the rest of the Battlemechs and Omnimech.

Edited by KuroNyra, 05 January 2015 - 12:21 PM.

[Zoid]

Brody319, on 05 January 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

yea and when the enemy twists and you spread half your damage with that ERLLs (btw IS has ERLLs too you dip) the PPC does its full damage up front. Directly where you are aiming instantly with no if ands or buts about it.

There is a reason people consistantly use PPCs over LPLs or LLs despite the numbers showing up as in the favor of the ERLLs.

Because you can't twist to absorb PPC damage? They only deal 10 damage each and you have plenty of time to see them coming.

But this is why I am saying the reason it's strong is because it counters the clan laserboats that would otherwise dominate. If you try to twist and spread damage with lasers, you do crap for damage. This is why the TDR does not dominate regular matches, there are too many things that will munch a 'mech that deals 30 damage every ~3s. I rather enjoy finding these things in my Wolverine 6K with 3 LPL. Quick shot into the CT, then twist the left side to eat damage. He's got to cut through the left arm and left torso before I give a crap about the damage I've taken.

Seriously, is this community warfare or community crying time? This is how warfare works. One side has something really strong and the other side has to counter it. Clan laserboats counter IS light rushes (now that hit reg is fixed). The TDR 9S counters clan laserboats. Now the clans have to find something to counter the TDR 9S.

Edited by Zoid, 05 January 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[Brody319]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

Because you can't twist to absorb PPC damage? They only deal 10 damage each and you have plenty of time to see them coming.

But this is why I am saying the reason it's strong is because it counters the clan laserboats that would otherwise dominate. If you try to twist and spread damage with lasers, you do crap for damage. This is why the TDR does not dominate regular matches, there are too many things that will munch a 'mech that deals 30 damage every ~3s. I rather enjoy finding these things in my Wolverine 6K with 3 LPL. Quick shot into the CT, then twist the left side to eat damage. He's got to cut through the left arm and left torso before I give a crap about the damage I've taken.

Seriously, is this community warfare or community crying time? THIS IS HOW WARFARE WORKS. One side has something really strong and the other side has to counter it. Clan laserboats counter IS light rushes (now that hit reg is fixed). The TDR 9S counters clan laserboats. Now the clans have to find something to counter the TDR 9S.

Yea why do all the Clans do is boat lasers? I mean there has to be a reason right? almost like...the ballistics and missiles ******* suck and the only weapons they have that work decently are lasers...

[KuroNyra]

Zoid, on 05 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

Because you can't twist to absorb PPC damage? They only deal 10 damage each and you have plenty of time to see them coming.

But this is why I am saying the reason it's strong is because it counters the clan laserboats that would otherwise dominate. If you try to twist and spread damage with lasers, you do crap for damage. This is why the TDR does not dominate regular matches, there are too many things that will munch a 'mech that deals 30 damage every ~3s. I rather enjoy finding these things in my Wolverine 6K with 3 LPL. Quick shot into the CT, then twist the left side to eat damage. He's got to cut through the left arm and left torso before I give a crap about the damage I've taken.

Seriously, is this community warfare or community crying time? This is how warfare works. One side has something really strong and the other side has to counter it. Clan laserboats counter IS light rushes (now that hit reg is fixed). The TDR 9S counters clan laserboats. Now the clans have to find something to counter the TDR 9S.

If you torso twist, you can't attack your target. Since Thunderbolts can easyly Alpha and deal 60 damage in 2 salvo AT THE SAME POINT. They don't really have the problem of torso twisting. In normal match included.

On the other way, Clans are forced to face there ennemy without torso twisting in order to deal all there potential damage, thanks to the Lasers durations, AC/ salvo, etc.
Your talking about a Wolwerine, that's not a Clan Mech. And it's a Mech know to be devastating THANKS TO THE QUIRCKS. (Remind me of some other mechs, strange. )

Your using a Wolwerine to illustrate whan a StormCrow or a Timber Wolf shoud do? Man, you really have no idea of what your talking about do you?