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Pgi, Please Consider "free Endo 4 The Poor" And Underprivileged Omnimechs Not Named Timber Wolf Or Storm Crow?

Balance BattleMechs

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#1 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:08 PM

Firstly, a preface.

I, am a TT and Lore guy. I like my stock builds, stock history, etc. I loather boating/alpha strike metas, especially when done at the expense of the flavor of the game universe. There are plenty of other generic mech shooters for making generic mech builds with.

That said? I am also a realist. This is an evolving F2P, FPS with delusions of being a SimLite. The balancing factors that work well on paper, with RNG, etc, don't always translate well to the FPS environment. While the ideal is to keep things as close as "possible" to the source material, which has always been PGI's stated goal, reality is that things sometimes just don't work out as one hopes.

And that brings me to my "Endo 4 the Poor" initiative. For too long, the poor and underprivileged Omnimechs of MWO have been subjugated as second class citizens, by the Unholy Trinity. The Dire Wolf (no, it doesn't have Endo, and realistically, it doesn't benefit from it either as it needs space more than tonnage), Timber Wolf and Storm Crow. They hold a monopoly, no just on the game in general, but over their own kinsmen. One can hardly fairly balance Clan Tech, and determine what if any tweaks DOWN the Trinity needs until there is a semi-even playing field for Omnimechs in general.

Simply put, any nerfs to Clan Tech put in place now, seem to scarcely affect hose 3, but continue to drive the second class chassis even further into Mech Poverty. And because they are not balanced against themselves, it is all but impossible to really balance between Clan and IS.

Lock the criticals by chassis if you must, so those that have it, always have the crits in the same spot. Certainly we don't want our poor and underprivileged to have too much freedom. But show them mercy by allowing them a chance to shine.

The precedent was already set. We were going to get FULLY locked cores on all Omnis, originally. Then people realized....many Omnis have crap for armor, and would be DoA because of that. So Darth Paul relented, and armor became adjustable.

Likewise, we are not talking things that could cause major imbalances of their own, like Engines Swaps, etc, but something that realistically frees up about 4 tons max, for the biggest mechs that can realistically use it, like the Gargoyle. The Direwolf can't really use it, and the Warhawk has nowhere near enough free criticials. But mechs like the Nova, Summoner, Mad Dog and such would gain so much, from such a minor amount more of available tonnage.

So please, help our needy underprivileged OmniMechs. And by doing so help your IS mechs to, by allowing real balance to be a possibility in MWO.

TL;DR - Endo as an option, with fixed criticals per chassis, would make a lot of lower tier Clan Mechs more competitive, without needing freak level quirks. And at the same time, literally doesn't benefit any of the "Rich" high tier Omnis, because the ones that CAN use it, already have it anyhow.

*This message was brought to you by the Foundation for Better Mech Balance, and the Urbanmech Union of the Lyran Commonwealth.

For a similarly enlightenedmessage reviewing balance from a differing perspective, please see: http://mwomercs.com/...der-performers/

*Also, compiled form Andi Nagasia
Mechs with Endo that will not Change,
Lights(MLX)(KFX)(ADR), Mediums(IFR)(SCR), Heavies(TBR),
so to recap the SCR/TBR will not be buffed by this change!

Mechs without Endo that will Change and gain more Tonnage(+Number=ExtraTons)
Mediums(NVA+2.5), Heavies(MDD+3)(HBR+3)(SMN+3.5), Assualts(GAR+4)(WHK+4)(DWF+5)
so to recap the DWF gets the most Benefit from this, but it already has more Tons than it can use!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 March 2015 - 08:29 PM.


#2 Techorse

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:13 PM

It would be rather interesting to see if the Nova would become more viable if it had endo. I'd likely end up spending all the extra tons on heat sinks if I was allowed to take endo steel, since what I'm running now is 6 ERML + 4 MG plus as many sinks as I can, and 2 jj.

Now I do like the idea of fixing the hardpoints that the endo steel takes up as well. So for example, putting fixed slots in the legs would prevent those designs from "stuffing their socks" with ammo. I'd have to know where the slots were going on each endoless design before I'd make my choice.

#3 Kain Demos

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:20 PM

I wish if that were the case then engines could be also unlocked in multiples of the 'mechs tonnage.

I would then go up to a 300XL after putting Endo on my Novas.

Being able to move at 107kph would make my "ambushing" 12 x CSPL build more effective.

Edited by Kain Thul, 08 January 2015 - 12:21 PM.


#4 Praehotec8

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:24 PM

The more I think about it, the more this idea makes sense, and, when combined with a penalty to mech speed with destruction of a clan XL side torso, would put clan vs. IS balance in a pretty good place, IMO.

If one thinks about it, all the "good" clan mechs already have FF and endosteel, and the "bad" ones don't. Plus, name me some IS mechs (assaults aside) that DON'T use endosteel. This creates a scenario where the lack of endosteel largely negates the weight advantage of clan weapons, but is a poor balancing mechanic because only some omnimechs lack endosteel. It would be much better to even the field with regards to this mechanic, and to use another (such as clan ST destruction penalties) to balance clan mechs.

#5 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:26 PM

View PostKain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I wish if that were the case then engines could be also unlocked in multiples of the 'mechs tonnage.

I would then go up to a 300XL after putting Endo on my Novas.

Being able to move at 107kph would make my "ambushing" 12 x CSPL build more effective.

Still think engine unlocking is a MASSIVELY different can of balance worms, and NOT what this thread is about, sorry man.

View PostPraehotec8, on 08 January 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

The more I think about it, the more this idea makes sense, and, when combined with a penalty to mech speed with destruction of a clan XL side torso, would put clan vs. IS balance in a pretty good place, IMO.

If one thinks about it, all the "good" clan mechs already have FF and endosteel, and the "bad" ones don't. Plus, name me some IS mechs (assaults aside) that DON'T use endosteel. This creates a scenario where the lack of endosteel largely negates the weight advantage of clan weapons, but is a poor balancing mechanic because only some omnimechs lack endosteel. It would be much better to even the field with regards to this mechanic, and to use another (such as clan ST destruction penalties) to balance clan mechs.

Yeah, I do think there needs heavier penalties for ST destruction. I think a good 15-25% speed reduction, and more heat output would do it. Again, like Kain's Engines, a different topic, but one that needs looking into, also.

#6 Ursh

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:46 PM

Almost all the IS assaults that aren't xl friendly use endo anyways.

#7 Praehotec8

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:49 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Still think engine unlocking is a MASSIVELY different can of balance worms, and NOT what this thread is about, sorry man.


Yeah, I do think there needs heavier penalties for ST destruction. I think a good 15-25% speed reduction, and more heat output would do it. Again, like Kain's Engines, a different topic, but one that needs looking into, also.


I just think there is no way unlocking endosteel will be allowed into the game without some balancing mechanic, so I am pushing for clan ST destruction penalties, as that hits all clan omnimechs equally (so far anyway).

As for changing engine sizes....well I wouldn't mind too much, but I think it would probably be considered unfair by a majority of players.

View PostUrsh, on 08 January 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

Almost all the IS assaults that aren't xl friendly use endo anyways.


Yes, but as soon as you say something like, "all (or most) IS mechs use endo," someone else pops in and brings up how the atlas does not always use it or something similar.

#8 Brody319

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:50 PM

The Direwolf doesn't really need it. 100 tons and its got both STD structure and armor.

But all other omnimechs should have it. Also all hardlocked stuff should be removable. JJs, Bap, Flamers. ect.

#9 FupDup

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:50 PM

It would be kewl if Endo wasn't mandatory on like 95% of mechs in the first place. Maybe STD internals wouldn't be considered outright inferior if they could take significantly more punishment than Endo internals...

#10 Lucian Nostra

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:56 PM

View PostFupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

It would be kewl if Endo wasn't mandatory on like 95% of mechs in the first place. Maybe STD internals wouldn't be considered outright inferior if they could take significantly more punishment than Endo internals...


no because survivability never trumps damage. If it did than we'd see far more standard engines than just a select few.. So people would still run Endo over STD for the weight savings

#11 FupDup

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:56 PM

And on a side note, the Whale could technically benefit from Endo if it was using some large ballistics, because those eat up tonnage faster than slots. The 4 Gauss build might become actually serious then...

#12 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:57 PM

The only way I would consider this reasonable is if those Endo (or FF) slots were per-determined and not floating/dynamically assigned. For the same reason those items are currently in fixed positions, to prevent specific builds that could be deemed over powered. I would also restrict builds to adding Endo and/or FF but not removing it if it already exists since it could open build options that the developers were intentionally excluding.

#13 FupDup

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:58 PM

View PostLucian Nostra, on 08 January 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:


no because survivability never trumps damage. If it did than we'd see far more standard engines than just a select few.. So people would still run Endo over STD for the weight savings

The tonnage gap between STD and XL engines is a lot higher than the gap between STD internals and Endo. If we went crazy enough, i.e. 25% bonus internal health (or even more if we really need to), it might help STD internals not seem completely worthless.

Edited by FupDup, 08 January 2015 - 12:59 PM.


#14 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:03 PM

View PostFupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

And on a side note, the Whale could technically benefit from Endo if it was using some large ballistics, because those eat up tonnage faster than slots. The 4 Gauss build might become actually serious then...

It already works about as good as it can. They never survive long enough to empty their ammo bays as is. It's...just not that good a build in 99% of hands. But it is indeed the one guild I have seen that MIGHT get some benefit. Just don't see it as game changing in actual practice, ya know?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 January 2015 - 01:08 PM.


#15 Ultimax

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:04 PM

Unlock All the Upgrades!

Well, just Endo & FF.



View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Still think engine unlocking is a MASSIVELY different can of balance worms, and NOT what this thread is about, sorry man.



It is, definitely.

I had a suggestion but it got poo poo'd on over at HPG.



Effectively,


Any clan mech can remove stock engine.

Can replace with different sized engine.

New engine MUST be IS XL or IS STD.




Result:
  • Clan lights get a speed boost at the cost of risk.
  • Ice Ferret might be willing to downsize, at the cost of risk.
  • Gargoyle, Summoner, Hellbringer, Nova - may or may not be worth the risk.
  • Stormcrow, Mad Dog, Timber Wolf, Warhawk, Dire Wolf unlikely to make this trade (almost a death sentence).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 January 2015 - 01:05 PM.


#16 Deathlike

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:04 PM

View PostFupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

And on a side note, the Whale could technically benefit from Endo if it was using some large ballistics, because those eat up tonnage faster than slots. The 4 Gauss build might become actually serious then...


Stop that line of thinking before the man who shall not be named will NEVER consider it.

#17 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:05 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 January 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

The only way I would consider this reasonable is if those Endo (or FF) slots were per-determined and not floating/dynamically assigned. For the same reason those items are currently in fixed positions, to prevent specific builds that could be deemed over powered. I would also restrict builds to adding Endo and/or FF but not removing it if it already exists since it could open build options that the developers were intentionally excluding.

you might notice I specifically mentioned that requirement in the post, my friend. Well, the first part. I certainly have no issue with the second part though, if they were to enforce that.

#18 FupDup

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:34 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 08 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Unlock All the Upgrades!

Well, just Endo & FF.
...

If we're going to make Omnis build mostly like Battlemechs, then heatsink type needs to be unlocked as well. The IS Omnimechs Strider and Owens come stock with SHS...they would require utterly godlike insane quirks if they had to keep their SHS.


Although I still just wish that STD internals weren't worthless on like 95% of mechs in the first place...

#19 keith

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:41 PM

well i going to go on a side track. the whole endo std internal thing. in mw4 if a mech had std internal they took more dam to kill once u got to the internals. MWO could go down this road giving a buff to the second hand clan mechs, and giving a choice to any IS mech. something like std internals give u 25% more internal health. fyi just a random num. meaning is side could chose 5% weight savings or more armor on the inside, clans have no choice because its set from lore.

#20 Antagonist

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:54 PM

View PostFupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

It would be kewl if Endo wasn't mandatory on like 95% of mechs in the first place. Maybe STD internals wouldn't be considered outright inferior if they could take significantly more punishment than Endo internals...


The thing you're looking for is Composite Structure and it's a few more years down the road. Same weight as Endo, no slot requirement but it halves structure HP.

But personally, I'm waiting on Endo-Composite. 4/7 crits for CL/IS and 75% the weight of Standard structure.

Lots of tech is just around the corner that will play a large part in potentially making IS OP due to powergaming. All the Clan equipment nerfs may have to be rethought then.

And I'm still waiting for my Mad Cat Mk IV with Ferro-Lamellor!





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