50 replies to this topic

[GoatHILL]

Do people really think the TDR is OP?

Are they good mechs without a doubt but I would not say they are OP. What makes them used so much in CW is they are the best 65 ton mech even without quirks.

No Quirks on anything who would take a Catapult or Jager over a TDR?

The 250 ton dropdeck works perfect as 35/65/65/85. The nature of CW works against both the Catapult and the Jager with an over abundance of ECM plus 30 min. matches making LRM and XL bakka builds poor choices for CW.

IMO the TDR at 65 tons will remain the goto heavy for IS dropdecks until another heavy is not just a little better but clearly a better choice to take.

[ROSS-128]

Honestly, if quirks were removed I'd take a Hunchback over a Thunderbolt. Shuffle the extra tonnage to other mechs, maybe a King Crab or a Banshee in my assault slot.

Even with current quirks, I actually like my Hunchback more than my Thunderbolt. That high mounted hunch is just so nice.

Firestarter, Hunchback 4P, Banshee 3M/3E, and one of the better Grasshopper variants might not be too bad I think.

Thing is, quite a few Clan mechs can pretty much do what the Thunderbolt does. And they can do it while hitting harder, running faster, and bringing extra stuff like TC/BAP/ECM. Mostly at the cost of running a little hotter.

The reason the Thunderbolt is used so much is that on the other side, very few IS mechs can do what it does. Which is to say, only a small handful of IS mechs do a good job of keeping up with the Clans. And of that handful, most of them have weights such that you'll probably have to bring at least one Thunderbolt to have the right amount of tonnage for your drop deck.

[Alistair Winter]

When the TDR was released, the Jagermech continued to be a more popular mech for some time, IIRC. The Catapult has been a second class citizen for a while, due to the poor position LRMs are in and because it's hilariously easy to disarm with the new VCR pods.

OP is a matter of definition. Some people would say it's not OP, because the IS needs a mech to compete with the holy trinity. Other people would say it is OP because it's better than most other IS Heavies, and the holy trinity is also OP.

For me, the most important question isn't whether the TDR is OP. The most important question is: do you want a Quirk system that turns all Tier 1 mechs into laser boats? Or do you want a Quirk system that rewards complex builds that require more skill to use at maximum potential? I'll vote for the latter. PGI has gone with the former.

[Yokaiko]

Alistair Winter, on 02 May 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

For me, the most important question isn't whether the TDR is OP. The most important question is: do you want a Quirk system that turns all Tier 1 mechs into laser boats? Or do you want a Quirk system that rewards complex builds that require more skill to use at maximum potential? I'll vote for the latter. PGI has gone with the former.

Fact is that for CW you aren't going to be very ammo dependand, 2 out of three times I drop my Dragons I end up ejecting out of ammo.....out of all 11 tons of ammo.

......I'm NOT going to run four "complex" builds for that reason, they don't have the staying power

[Macster16]

The TDR is to IS what the SCR is to Clans. Both lay around the the avg tonnage of 60 (though you have to take into account the IS 250t limit) so can fit multiples into a drop deck comfortably. Both can give and take a lot of damage. Both can fit multiple roles and both just serve as reliable workhorses.

Both have become the staples of CW and will need to be handled sensibly if balancing, otherwise you could seriously botch one side's viability for CW.

[Xetelian]

They are not OP, they have an attractive tonnage for CW.

[Insects]

CW needs to become more ballistics friendly by introducing ammo reloads.
Until something like that is done it is all about laser vomit energy builds and whichever has the best heat management.

[Escef]

Alistair Winter, on 02 May 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

When the TDR was released, the Jagermech continued to be a more popular mech for some time, IIRC. The Catapult has been a second class citizen for a while, due to the poor position LRMs are in and because it's hilariously easy to disarm with the new VCR pods.

Catapult C1 doesn't get run much, and it doesn't have the option of the extra missiles. Let us be frank with each other about the Catapult. Firstly, LRMs are the only weapon system in the game more dependent upon the target than the firer for accuracy, and combined with the amount of ECM clan-side is a double-whammy against it. Secondly, SRM spam isn't too good, either, as the range is very short and support weapons (if you run them) will limit you too either 24SRMs and some LRMs (see point the first) on the A1 (which is frankly better for 36SRMs) or a couple mediums or a large of some flavor for the C4. Thirdly, Streak SRMs, in addition to not being too strong for the Inner Sphere due to lack of 4 and 6 packs, are not the light destroyer weapons of doom people would have you believe (and even if they were, clanners use few lights). Which leaves... the K2 and Jester, maybe the C1 still (4 energy points and jets). The K2 was most popular as a ballistics bed, a role which the Jager is straight up better at. That leaves the K2 and Jester (maybe C1) pulling energy support, which puts their CT-centric/XL-friendly hit boxes in direct competition with the Thunderbolt's torso-rolling/damage-spreading hit boxes.

If CW was more mobility based the Catapults might have a home as heavy skirmishers with 300 to 315 rated XL engines that need to be CT-cored due to slim side torso hit boxes.

Pre-quirk, yes, the T-bolt was nothing but a nostalgia mech. The Catapult's lack of usage has more to do with the questionable viability of missiles, dominance of the Jagermech, and the 'pult's CT hit boxes (and not the secondary and tertiary missile pods, as aesthetically unpleasant as some find them).

[Monkey Lover]

High weapons and good hit boxes. Good size to run a std engine and have great firepower.

[TripleEhBeef]

Monkey Lover, on 02 May 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

High weapons and good hit boxes. Good size to run a std engine and have great firepower.

Plus the concentration of hardpoints on the torsi means that you've typically got two beefy arms to shield with. STD TBolts driven by decent pilots can take a lot before they go down, they're a heavy Centurion in that regard.

However, The Quirkening gave the TBolt a lot more oomph compared to the other T5 mechs like the Quickdraw and Orion. Overall, the entire IS heavy line needs to have their performance gap compressed. Too many outliers on both sides and not enough mechs right in the nice, happy, viable middle. That was the whole point of quirks in the first place, but I think PGI has gotten away from that too much.

[Insects]

They have been bringing things closer each round of quirks.
Things should be done gradually and in small percentages so we dont get overshoots, it can be just a 5% quirk which switches between zero/hero popularity.

A lot of popularity is simply what is declared meta by the comp teams and various websites.
Hundreds of people will use something for no other reason than it is published on a websites ranking list.

[TripleEhBeef]

joelmuzz, on 02 May 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

They have been bringing things closer each round of quirks.
Things should be done gradually and in small percentages so we dont get overshoots, it can be just a 5% quirk which switches between zero/hero popularity.

Agreed. But there were a few cases where we went from "let's make this mech better" to "let's make this mech ridiculously, unfathomably good". Remember the old PPCVomit TDR-9S, for instance. PGI didn't step over the PowerCreep line there, they stuffed themselves into a howitzer and shot 50 miles across it.

[Lord0fHats]

The TBolt isn't OP in my eyes. It's strong, at a nice tonnage, and it's fun. It and other 65 tonners will always be a stable of IS CW until/unless it gets nerfed into the ground.

[Escef]

TripleEhBeef, on 02 May 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

Agreed. But there were a few cases where we went from "let's make this mech better" to "let's make this mech ridiculously, unfathomably good". Remember the old PPCVomit TDR-9S, for instance. PGI didn't step over the PowerCreep line there, they stuffed themselves into a howitzer and shot 50 miles across it.

Have to agree on this one, I have no idea WTF PGI was thinking. It was so ludicrous that it wasn't PowerCreep, it was PowerLeap, and just this side of PowerParkour.

[FupDup]

Thunderbolts used to be Thunderbads before quirks saved them from mediocrity.

I don't really agree with the specific quirks they got (i.e. I would focus on sheer toughness quirks and a smidge more agility) but at least they're viable now.

[lsp]

Macster16, on 02 May 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

The TDR is to IS what the SCR is to Clans. Both lay around the the avg tonnage of 60 (though you have to take into account the IS 250t limit) so can fit multiples into a drop deck comfortably. Both can give and take a lot of damage. Both can fit multiple roles and both just serve as reliable workhorses.

Both have become the staples of CW and will need to be handled sensibly if balancing, otherwise you could seriously botch one side's viability for CW.

The Stormcrow and Thunderbolt is comparing apples to oranges. Not even close, the Stormcrow is so ridiculously op it's not funny. The hitboxes might as well not even exist, they're so godly. The Thunderbolt is a barn door, easy to take off ST's and turn into a walking stick. In fac tthe Thunderbolt was one of the worst mechs in the game until the quirks came out.

Edited by lsp, 02 May 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[TuWeDa]

lsp, on 02 May 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

The Stormcrow and Thunderbolt is comparing apples to oranges. Not even close, the Stormcrow is so ridiculously op it's not funny. The hitboxes might as well not even exist, they're so godly. The Thunderbolt is a barn door, easy to take off ST's and turn into a walking stick. In fac tthe Thunderbolt was one of the worst mechs in the game until the quirks came out.

So you are saying that you would take a different IS 65 ton mech to CW if there were no quirks?

[DjPush]

I loved the T-bolts before the quirks. They tanked really well. Now they have rediculous energy quirks.. So... not really OP just better.

[Karen Supreme]

Alistair Winter, on 02 May 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

When the TDR was released, the Jagermech continued to be a more popular mech for some time, IIRC. The Catapult has been a second class citizen for a while, due to the poor position LRMs are in and because it's hilariously easy to disarm with the new VCR pods.

OP is a matter of definition. Some people would say it's not OP, because the IS needs a mech to compete with the holy trinity. Other people would say it is OP because it's better than most other IS Heavies, and the holy trinity is also OP.

For me, the most important question isn't whether the TDR is OP. The most important question is: do you want a Quirk system that turns all Tier 1 mechs into laser boats? Or do you want a Quirk system that rewards complex builds that require more skill to use at maximum potential? I'll vote for the latter. PGI has gone with the former.

Catapult problems:
1) weapons that spread dmg
2) giant CT

Thunders on the other hand:
1) very tanky (of course ST engine all day long)
2) a lot of pinpoint dmg

These 2 condition on both side even before the quirk system.
After the quirk system: Thunder ""OP.""

edit: I mean OQ. Over Quirked

Edited by I want a shadowcat, 02 May 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[ROSS-128]

TuWeDa, on 02 May 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

So you are saying that you would take a different IS 65 ton mech to CW if there were no quirks?

Once upon a time there actually were no quirks.

People played Jagers and Gaussapults. Except for that time when the splatcat was ridiculous. So we kind of already know what people would play without quirks, because it happened.