186 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

Ax2Grind, on 16 January 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

Edit: and Jakob, nice sig -"Battles are decided by the mistakes of the combatants."

Thanks, but it's just an observation all military students throughout history have noted. When two armed forces meet, it's the decisions each make that determine the outcome, either during the battle or in preparation for it. The side that makes the fewer and/or least costly mistakes will emerge victorious barring acts of God (which do happen). This is why no sane leader will ever choose to place the fate of their nation onto the battlefields of war unless it is the last resort...they know everyone makes mistakes, and war is the most brutal punisher of mistakes.

[Apocryph0n]

The major point is that CW does not even have a "matchmaker" in the public queue sense. It crams people (with 12 mans preferred) into matches that queue up at the chosen planet - regardless of "group" "Solo" and Skill.

On the other hand: This is one of the few games that actually allows solo players to take part in the Community Warfare (Other games don't even let you play without a FULL team :-S ).

With VOIP coming, "Pug" groups will get better means of coordinating their attack. Still, a team based game is not designed to give a less organized group any advantage. A 12 man is more effective than random groups and it will always be this way.

But there's something coming up as well: You will (either 20th patch or feb, don't remember) be possible to drop with groups that are not unit-members of yourself.

The best tip one can give to anyone trying to enjoy CW is to actually join a unit that you can drop in 12 mans with, because that's where most fun is at. Noentheless, you can still drop solo, just don't expect it to be always a super awesome experience, CW is meant to reward coordinated teams.


TL;DR : If possible: Join a unit, it's going to be fun, they said.

[SpiralRazor]

oldradagast, on 16 January 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

Wow... nothing like the internet to make people lose faith in humanity.

A few simple things to consider:

1) Most people play games for fun. They do not play them to be stomped over and over again particularly at 30-minutes+ per stomp and when the stomping often happens for reasons outside their control (matchmaking, or lack of it.)
2) CW does nothing to prevent frequent stomps.
3) CW "mysteriously" is bleeding out players at a high rate, particular casual and new players.

The casual observer might suspect that points 1 and 2 - which are facts - might have something to do with point 3.

But, no. Instead let's use the following "logic" to defend the current setup:
1) Some people like being stomped, so everyone should like it. "Life sucks" excuses it all.
2) Pitting foes of comparable skill against each other - like every other non-professional game out there - is now "handing out wins" for some reason.
3) CW is the land of infinite skill and "real war", but free wins via PUG stomps and ghost drops are a vital part of that "skill"

If PGI wasn't bleeding resources over this mess, the above illogic train would almost be laughable... whatever, guys.. .keep dreaming. Maybe, someday, all the casual players will suddenly *want* to lose over and over again, and they'll come back... or not...

I played CW for about 2 days...then gave up when i realized it was completely pointless to do so....playing CW has no value because you get nothing from it you couldnt get in the regular Q. Ive been in Marik since the game was released, day 1'er. Its fun to play with those guys and its good to see Roadbeer still playing but yeah....theres no point in it.

PGI will call something beta for 5 years before going to "release"..

Bleh.

Hope they know there game will die once SC goes live...think MWO has about a year of life in it, so you guys at PGI best capitalize in the time you have available since people will be choosing to spend there time in games(plural because there are other good MP games coming, including modules in Elite) that actually matter.

Seriously...ive been around long enough to watch the entire PGI process and ive been fortunate enough with work $$ to get in on a good level with RSI and watch there process...its like night and day. They have 10x the money, and 10x the calibre of staff which is what a franchise like Mechwarrior really needed. Sorry Russ, Brian..i called it six weeks in and you guys have yet to prove me wrong.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 17 January 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[Zolaz]

*screws off the cap of his 40 oz and pours some on the ground* There you go little hommies ... R.I.P.. Ya'll died too young in CW. *hops back into his Firestarter and returns to CW*

[zzoxx]

Hi all. I'm noob and pug, playing for a few weeks now. The learning curve of the game is pretty challenging. After joining CW, i read somewhere doing so without having at leat 500 drops under the belt would be a bad idea. It actually is or may be. I come to the conclusion, as a noob and a pug, i'd rather stay away from it. Until you join a group, get on comms, all that "Elite / Serious" stuff. No problem, i have my fun in public games and the wait times on CW are mostly beyond my personal limit (i know, whining). BUT: Even in public games, what i would consider designed a bit more for the more casual guys like me, there is this pug bashing, and always AFTER the game went south, for whatever reason. Often in a language is also ...not appropriate. Why don't these guys organize, choose "private match" or go CW and do their homework there? Nobody of these gus also ever hits the "take command" button BEFORE the public game and organize the unexperienced bunch of folks? It's very cheap imho. I already spent a lot of time of research about the "Do's and Dont's" but seriously, you can't learn as much as you will be learning from gaining experience ingame. As a beginner, you don't know the maps, the "invisible" borders, spawns of the opposite team, regular routes taken. It takes a while. I read "follow the team" and did so a lot. I often end up following a team / lance that doesn't do much better then i would have done alone. Lance dead, lesson (hopefully) learned.. But you don't know who you are following at the start of the match. The point is, you learn by playing the game, there are not so many supportive experienced players (hitting the command button) so it takes to get to that crucial teamplay aspect of the game. You have to become a more experienced player and then eventually even support noobs and pugs, if you want these guys "not to suck". Keep on bashing, they leave, game probably dies, or the hardcore-do it all right-heroes stay amongst themselves sometime. Maybe this won't be enough for the game to last.

Edited by zzoxx, 19 January 2015 - 03:02 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

zzoxx, on 19 January 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

Hi all. I'm noob and pug, playing for a few weeks now. The learning curve of the game is pretty challenging. After joining CW, i read somewhere doing so without having at leat 500 drops under the belt would be a bad idea. It actually is or may be. I come to the conclusion, as a noob and a pug, i'd rather stay away from it. Until you join a group, get on comms, all that "Elite / Serious" stuff. No problem, i have my fun in public games and the wait times on CW are mostly beyond my personal limit (i know, whining). BUT: Even in public games, what i would consider designed a bit more for the more casual guys like me, there is this pug bashing, and always AFTER the game went south, for whatever reason. Often in a language is also ...not appropriate. Why don't these guys organize, choose "private match" or go CW and do their homework there? Nobody of these gus also ever hits the "take command" button BEFORE the public game and organize the unexperienced bunch of folks? It's very cheap imho. I already spent a lot of time of research about the "Do's and Dont's" but seriously, you can't learn as much as you will be learning from gaining experience ingame. As a beginner, you don't know the maps, the "invisible" borders, spawns of the opposite team, regular routes taken. It takes a while. I read "follow the team" and did so a lot. I often end up following a team / lance that doesn't do much better then i would have done alone. Lance dead, lesson (hopefully) learned.. But you don't know who you are following at the start of the match. The point is, you learn by playing the game, there are not so many supportive experienced players (hitting the command button) so it takes to get to that crucial teamplay aspect of the game. You have to become a more experienced player and then eventually even support noobs and pugs, if you want these guys "not to suck". Keep on bashing, they leave, game probably dies, or the hardcore-do it all right-heroes stay amongst themselves sometime. Maybe this won't be enough for the game to last.

Hey zzoxx. Welcome to the game!

I can understand what you say, and yeah CW is even more challenging for new players than the Public games. I don't know who put a ballpark number of drops out there, but it really has to be 'when you feel confident you can handle it'. Some people can jump right in, others might take a long time. Teamplay has a greater impact here than in the Public queues due to the objective-centered nature of the battles, and I can understand the frustration when you don't have a team of eleven other people you can trust to back you up.

What you say about the Public drops is also true, because -anyone- can drop in any part of the game, so you will get the children along with the adults and there is no way to exclude them. Even if you are with a team of eleven people you like, you'll still face them on the other side of the battlefield. Not much you can do about that.

However, I would recommend you look over the Recruitment areas and see if there is a Unit that seems to have the maturity level you want. Unfortunately, the game lacks a lobby system, so the only way experienced players can help new players is on their Unit Teamspeak channels (or other voicecoms) and Unit chat channels. In a typical game, the vets are just as busy as the new players fighting, so the time available to help new players is almost non-existent. There are public Teamspeak channels available, but again, I think they are almost all dedicated to fighting. A good unit will spend time helping new players with the game, will have people who have an interest in watching your back in a game, and should have the maturity to not throw abuse at you if the game goes down in flames. If you can't stop the abuse from the other side of the battlefield, at least you can minimize it on your own team channels by limiting who is on them to a group you know.

Good luck, and hope to see you back in CW soon, or the Public battlefield when chance permits!

Edited by Jakob Knight, 19 January 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[Abivard]

Almost all players start MWO as solo players, PGI offers little to no social networking or unit building tools outside of the rather hidden forum recruitment threads. PGI needs to put much more effort into helping players get together as groups and units in this game. Community Warfare and MWO should be about team play and belonging to a Unit or team faction!

It is counter productive to all of that when PGI itself creates game mechanics that:

Do not allow pre-mades in CW outside of a Unit.(Changing in tomorrows patch, but why wasn't it like that from the start?)
PGI always letting Large premades cut in at the front of the planet Queue's,
PGI FORCING solo and small groups to the rear of the line.
PGI's low wait time before initiating a ghost drop.
Allow only the most rudimentary of chat, or social networking.


There are a multitude of other fails on PGI's part that needlessly give entitlements to larger Units but are also detrimental to players in solo, small group or small units.
Large, well organized units of experienced and skilled players have many rightful advantages over solo or small groups, there is no reason for larger units or PGI to rub the solo players nose in it, nor should they make it more difficult for the solo/small group than the larger groups with these game mechanics.

[Wildstreak]

Krivvan, on 15 January 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

We've only ever been Jade Falcon and FRR.

Thanks for clarification, I figured there may be other teams with Lord in the name and I do not have time to keep track of every team out there.

Krivvan, on 15 January 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

One of the issues with this game is that the core gameplay, mechanics, and challenge very much attract competitive players who play games such as DOTA, Starcraft, CS:GO, and etc. You also have people who want to play the computer version of CBT. You cannot mix these people together to play against each other, that's why leagues need to exist (but they can't because population).

Leagues meaning separate queues for each?

There have always been competitive people in CBT so to believe CBT players are separate is false. CBT actually has different subsets of players, they are not all of one type just like a lot of pre-computer games had and still have.

Edited by Wildstreak, 19 January 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[Beo Vulf]

Is it just me have the uber comp teams lost some of their uberness lately. They were some of the worst trash talkers when CW came out. They have been losing more matches as the player base caught up to them and figured out how to beat them, and they don't steam roll like they used to.

[Ax2Grind]

Beo Vulf, on 19 January 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

Is it just me have the uber comp teams lost some of their uberness lately. They were some of the worst trash talkers when CW came out. They have been losing more matches as the player base caught up to them and figured out how to beat them, and they don't steam roll like they used to.

It's just you.

Trash talking and steam rolling are two different things. The worst trash talkers I know aren't in "comp teams". Trying to blame comp units for trash talk is stale and usually incorrect.

And what data do you have that these "comp teams" are losing more battles? You don't.

Which teams are not steam rolling like they used too? You have no idea because your just making this up.

Have you looked at the planets tagged? Seems to me that there many units doing very well for themselves. Suggesting that comp units are doing poorly in CW based off of your imagination is tedious and it has little to do with the point of this thread...

[zzoxx]

Jakob Knight, on 19 January 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

Hey zzoxx. Welcome to the game!

I can understand what you say, and yeah CW is even more challenging for new players than the Public games. I don't know who put a ballpark number of drops out there, but it really has to be 'when you feel confident you can handle it'. Some people can jump right in, others might take a long time. Teamplay has a greater impact here than in the Public queues due to the objective-centered nature of the battles, and I can understand the frustration when you don't have a team of eleven other people you can trust to back you up.

What you say about the Public drops is also true, because -anyone- can drop in any part of the game, so you will get the children along with the adults and there is no way to exclude them. Even if you are with a team of eleven people you like, you'll still face them on the other side of the battlefield. Not much you can do about that.

However, I would recommend you look over the Recruitment areas and see if there is a Unit that seems to have the maturity level you want. Unfortunately, the game lacks a lobby system, so the only way experienced players can help new players is on their Unit Teamspeak channels (or other voicecoms) and Unit chat channels. In a typical game, the vets are just as busy as the new players fighting, so the time available to help new players is almost non-existent. There are public Teamspeak channels available, but again, I think they are almost all dedicated to fighting. A good unit will spend time helping new players with the game, will have people who have an interest in watching your back in a game, and should have the maturity to not throw abuse at you if the game goes down in flames. If you can't stop the abuse from the other side of the battlefield, at least you can minimize it on your own team channels by limiting who is on them to a group you know.

Good luck, and hope to see you back in CW soon, or the Public battlefield when chance permits!

Thanks a lot for your welcome and your reply! I think i'll try to deal with it the way it is by now. Because i'm stubborn. Nice to have would be some ingame comms that work, that may solve a lot of issues imho. Sure there is teamspeak and ways to find out about it. But i won't do it for principle reasons. No way around it, MWO is product. Designed for teamwork play? Ok, then it's the developers job to implement the tools neccessary to the game. I don't spend time on implementing third party add ons or TS to get the game to a level where it can be played the way it's ment by the developers and community. It's their job, not mine as a paying customer. After all when the term "free to play" isn't to be held too serious like in MWO, where every additional meter weapon range costs something. At least, the lack of manners with some people is just sad. Mechwarrior was about the freedom to show some respect and honor back in the days. Now it's about ranting kids, like everywhere. But hey, there is still MW4 Mercs via Gameranger to visit when you need a break from that :-)

[Mirkk Defwode]

Ax2Grind, on 16 January 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

But what is the terrible disadvantage outside of skill? The fact that a team is on comms? Comms are available for everyone. The fact that the enemy team is a group? Everyone can join a group. Both of these things are completely player choice, just like when my fellow pugs decide they wanted to bring their LRM Cataphracts instead of a more competitive mech to the battleground. Sure, it would be awesome if my LRM Ctatphracts friends got their own special match catered to balance with a weird mech build, but that's just not realistic.

In terms of dealing with the parameters that PGI has created, outside of skill it comes down to each individual's choice about how they want to play the game. That's not PGI's fault, that's PGI enabling folks to take responsibility for how they want to enjoy the game. If someone joins any of the "group" queues, public or CW, and doesn't want to use comms, or doesn't want to join a group and get to know the people they drop with, or doesn't want to run a competitive mech, they need to recognize that they are choosing to put themselves, and likely their team, at a disadvantage. It is no one else's fault but their own. However, if folks enjoy the challenge then more power to them...but they shouldn't qq about these things if that is the case.

And matchmaker hardly equals balance. That's just matching tonnage. Nothing can match mech builds, nor can matchmaker know how well someone is in a particular build. Those are qualities it does not track. The equalizer is us. We can all choose to bring whatever we want, and to play however we want. In fact, that is part of the "skill" for this game. How you prep for battle matters.

To keep this book of a post on topic, having more respect for our fellow players includes not being sore losers.

Edit: and Jakob, nice sig -"Battles are decided by the mistakes of the combatants."

Weapon balance, the tuning of the mech abilities themselves, map design as well as placement of spawns or objectives and their behavior.

I don't have a good answer for how those changes should be looked at or done. But it's also not my job to come up with those answers. And plenty of other games have figured out how to make that playing field at least feel more level and balanced that MWO does right now, so it's not impossible to do.

[Ax2Grind]

Mirkk Defwode, on 20 January 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Weapon balance, the tuning of the mech abilities themselves, map design as well as placement of spawns or objectives and their behavior.

I don't have a good answer for how those changes should be looked at or done. But it's also not my job to come up with those answers. And plenty of other games have figured out how to make that playing field at least feel more level and balanced that MWO does right now, so it's not impossible to do.

Everything you listed is available to, or affects, all players. ie...the only disadvantage is the one we create as players through our choices, or that happen randomly from MM...something that again affects all players.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Ax2Grind, on 20 January 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

Everything you listed is available to, or affects, all players. ie...the only disadvantage is the one we create as players through our choices, or that happen randomly from MM...something that again affects all players.

Map design and spawn placements are not something within the players control...And the option to try and protect the spawn locations to prevent spawn camping by long range snipers is not a real option if you're on the offense.

There are things that can be done to mitigate this and other systems to look over it. There are a lot of player choices in effect true, but there are other ways to open this up. I'd personally like to see CW not be Moba style route maps to narrow points. MWLL did fixed walled bases out in open fields for a similar concept overall that made more functional sense and allowed for a far more dynamic experience as to how a fight can be done than funneling through a narrow space.

[Ax2Grind]

Mirkk Defwode, on 20 January 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Map design and spawn placements are not something within the players control...And the option to try and protect the spawn locations to prevent spawn camping by long range snipers is not a real option if you're on the offense.

There are things that can be done to mitigate this and other systems to look over it. There are a lot of player choices in effect true, but there are other ways to open this up. I'd personally like to see CW not be Moba style route maps to narrow points. MWLL did fixed walled bases out in open fields for a similar concept overall that made more functional sense and allowed for a far more dynamic experience as to how a fight can be done than funneling through a narrow space.

While I would also love to see CW not be Moba style routes, it does not change the fact that what you bring up as disadvantages affect all players equally. It's ok to have a map where it favors the defenders...we all get to play on it, and we get to play defenders and attackers. It's ok to play a map that favors the attackers. Once again it is available to all players to play both sides. There is no disadvantage that anyone faces, beyond being a new player and just not knowing the game, that is not shared by the entire population of players.

The game has challenges...that's the point of a game. Your job as a player is to overcome those challenges. There is nothing in game that takes away your ability to win other than facing better and more organized players. Map design may add challenge but it doesn't stop you. It's up to you to win the game.

Edited by Ax2Grind, 20 January 2015 - 12:32 PM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Ax2Grind, on 20 January 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

While I would also love to see CW not be Moba style routes, it does not change the fact that what you bring up as disadvantages affect all players equally. It's ok to have a map where it favors the defenders...we all get to play on it, and we get to play defenders and attackers. It's ok to play a map that favors the attackers. Once again it is available to all players to play both sides. There is no disadvantage that anyone faces, beyond being a new player and just not knowing the game, that is not shared by the entire population of players.

The point is to be balanced no matter the approach, and regardless of what side you're on. Then it should come down to player choices as to how they win the fight. This balanced design should also allow for more than 2-3 strategies to achieve that objective.

[Ax2Grind]

Mirkk Defwode, on 20 January 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

edit: it should come down to player choices as to how they win the fight.

This is what it comes down to. If you feel dis-empowered I honestly hope you manage to find your will to conqueror and once again strive to win. The game design is not what is holding you back.

Edit: though I would also love to see the game design broadened! No matter how much I want improvement it does not change the fact that no matter what side of a map I drop on, or with who, it is possible to win based on how we play.

Edited by Ax2Grind, 20 January 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[Beo Vulf]

Ax2Grind, on 19 January 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

It's just you.

Trash talking and steam rolling are two different things. The worst trash talkers I know aren't in "comp teams". Trying to blame comp units for trash talk is stale and usually incorrect.

And what data do you have that these "comp teams" are losing more battles? You don't.

Which teams are not steam rolling like they used too? You have no idea because your just making this up.

Have you looked at the planets tagged? Seems to me that there many units doing very well for themselves. Suggesting that comp units are doing poorly in CW based off of your imagination is tedious and it has little to do with the point of this thread...

Well if it isnt one of the trash talkers whats the matter did I hit to close to home.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Ax2Grind, on 20 January 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

This is what it comes down to. If you feel dis-empowered I honestly hope you manage to find your will to conqueror and once again strive to win. The game design is not what is holding you back.

Edit: though I would also love to see the game design broadened! No matter how much I want improvement it does not change the fact that no matter what side of a map I drop on, or with who, it is possible to win based on how we play.

I never said I lost my will to fight, just that I'd like to see it actually be a balanced match. The best fights are even ones where it's a lot of maneuvering and trying to out think your opposition. Having it arrayed in such a way where one side has a lopsided advantage in either direction just plain sucks. In the event it's a balanced fight and I lose I readily accept the loss as I was beaten, if it's obviously lopsided one way or another and I lose then I look at the game mechanics and try to find the culprit as to why it's broken.

Overall MWO needs a lot of work to correct quite a few issues not just ones centered in CW. But I'm also of the opinion that CW shouldn't have launched in the state it's in right now. It was very obviously unfinished and I'd account for it being a 'vertical slice' which doesn't equate to a beta...

Be that as it may it could use more time baking and being worked into a full design other than "Here have this new game mode, with a star map...hope it all works out and is fun"

[Ax2Grind]

Mirkk Defwode, on 20 January 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

I never said I lost my will to fight, just that I'd like to see it actually be a balanced match. The best fights are even ones where it's a lot of maneuvering and trying to out think your opposition. Having it arrayed in such a way where one side has a lopsided advantage in either direction just plain sucks. In the event it's a balanced fight and I lose I readily accept the loss as I was beaten, if it's obviously lopsided one way or another and I lose then I look at the game mechanics and try to find the culprit as to why it's broken.

Overall MWO needs a lot of work to correct quite a few issues not just ones centered in CW. But I'm also of the opinion that CW shouldn't have launched in the state it's in right now. It was very obviously unfinished and I'd account for it being a 'vertical slice' which doesn't equate to a beta...

Be that as it may it could use more time baking and being worked into a full design other than "Here have this new game mode, with a star map...hope it all works out and is fun"

Once again you bring up balance...but the only thing I have identified as possibly being out of balance is skill disparity. We all have the same chances, choices, and options in this game. You have a chance at a "balanced" match every game. You know exactly what map and what game mode you will get before dropping into CW now. Use that information!

If we could group up for CW I would invite you to come and drop with us so that you can see that the mechanics aren't the main issue. It really comes down to how you play. There is a great team in your faction. Night Scorn. Go drop with them and you will see what I mean. All those hurdles that you seem to think are impossible or lopsided...are possible. I encourage you to seek them out and get excited about playing the game, without the need for an engineered crutch from PGI.