124 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

The PPC. PPCs, in general, minus quirks, simply are not as effective as they should be. We don't want them so effective they are the defacto "Meta". What to do?

Touted as one of the most effective combat weapons ever developed. Tosses a charged particle stream dowfield (aka, man made lightning bolt) causing extreme damage both by heat and kinetic energy.
http://www.foxnews.c...ghtning-weapon/
The original minimum range was a balancer, whereby the stream was intentionally inhibited to prevent back arcing to the firer. Something apparently solved before the PPC was created (though oddly never added to standard PPCs). Though the PPC still caused full damage under 90 meters, but was significantly harder to hit with.

Anyhow.
We went form ridiculously hot, and slow, with little damage registration in CB
to insanely OP, superfast, spam PPCs of dooms, once damage was fixed, and DHS came about.
Bringing us GH, to balance the idiotic amount of boating and PPC spam (huh..sound familiar?)
Then, because of poptarting, we had the heat ramped back up, and the speed reduced, reduced and reduced again.
Until relatively recently we saw a SMALL boost to projectile speed..... and then several mechs get ridiculously over quirked with it.

So now we sit with the weapon either stupid OP (if the right quirks are involved, like the TDR-9S), effective, but ignored because the TDR does it better (Awesomes and Vindicators), or flat out, MEH, (most clan builds, all the rest of the IS mechs)

What to do? Well, for one thing, any fixes will require adjustments to certain Mech Quirks. PERIOD.


the PPC SHOULD be a very desirable, effective, long range weapon.

Possible Ideas:(one, all, some mix)
-Buffs-
1) Lower base heat?
2) Increase Projectile speed to 1300-1400 range?
3) Return scaling damage to basic PPC under 90 meters?

-Nerfs- (for balance)

1) increase GH multiplier?
2) Increase GH "window" (instead of .5 seconds, make it 1-1.5 seconds, minimize 2x2 spam)
3) longer cooldown
4) Scaling damage:
-C-ER PPC
0-90: 10pp with 2.5/2.5 arcing
91-810: 15 PP
811-1620: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

-ER PPC

0-90: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing
91-810: 10 PP
811-1620: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

-PPC

0-90: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

91-540: 10 PP

541-1080: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing



thoughts? Ideas?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 January 2015 - 12:05 PM.

[FupDup]

As a side note, the most recent projectile speed nerf was actually the result of 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Dire Whales.


For buffs, I'd just prefer projectile speed. Lowering heat might put them in more overlap with lazor vomit, and thus one is more likely to beat the other. Returning the normal PPC to reduced damage within 90m instead of zero damage might be nice. If we wanted to, we could have the Clan ERPeep do the full 15 pinpoint damage, but retain the slower projectile as a drawback.

For counter-balancing nerfs, I think just nudging the cooldowns a little bit slower (0.5-1s less) would be fine, depending on what is needed.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I liked your idea in the other thread

ERPPC/IS/C

0-90m: (10IS) 10/2.5/2.5(C)
91-810: 15PP
811+: degrades normally....

Then we really dont need any heat changes, we dont really need any GH changes, we dont really need velocity buffs. the 15/15 for C and maybe for IS making it a 10/12 or 10/13.5 weapon and removing a portion of the ISERPPC quirks would suffice.

You can tweak individual weapons until the cows come home and its never going ot really solve the PPFLD meta, people will search for it where ever it may be.

Its a result of having 60-100 heat scale, where you can fire 80 points of damage with no consequence. Its a result of having all our weapons hit the exact same location instantly. Fix the Convergence and fix heat scale issues and you might not see PPFLD poof, people will always use as high a PPFLD as they can humanly get, but it will vastly reduce it's effects.

If people could only realistically fire a 25-30pt alpha, it might still hurt, and that is fine, but it will hurt alot less. If we get a CoF type thing where it spreads that 30 points over several portions of a mech, you would see more chain firing and slower firing overall to try and get a good shot.

The true fix is a persuasion or deviation from the PPFLD meta. Mechanics that shy us away from just lolphaing everything. Ill always maintain the PPC is supposed to be a slow firing, hard hitting, high heat energy weapon. Turning it into anything but that is just wrong. I mean, what would you people think if suddenly an AC20 became a long range ballistic sniper? Albeit a slow one, wouldnt something seem just off?

So, lets keep it high heat and slow it's cool down by another second, making it a 15/15 PPFLD weapon will make it what it should be, an unlimited ammo Gauss Rifle, limited by its very high heat. Due to its high heat, it will never be a good generalist weapon. Builds built for more close in will fair far better, while those same close in builds will not have a good day if they let a PPC build eat them at range. This game, along with so many others, tries to nerf/buff/tweak and change to make everyone a generalist, jack of all trades master of nothing and just ends up making the game bland, boring and pointless....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 19 January 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Kain Demos]

This is a tough situation.

PPCs need to be the awesome weapons they have always been and yet here they are outclassed by LPLs in MWO.

Buff them too much, and no one will use lasers. I definitely see that point as someone who already prefers them to lasers (clan lasers have long duration which means too much face time)

This is further complicated by the IS having both the PPC and ERPPC. 15 heat for 10 damage is bullshit but if we want to make the ERPPC better we can't make it so good the PPC is useless.

I think the right way to do this is by making the C-ERPPC 15 pinpoint damage and lowering the heat on the other PPCs and messing with the cycle times and velocities a bit.


Of course, with quirks this is all more complicated now.

Edited by Kain Thul, 19 January 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[Fate 6]

I like those suggestions Bishop and I've brought up the same thing recently, specifically with the C-ERPPC. I think a charge might be fair, and even giving PPCs a similar health to the Gauss rifle, to balance out other buffs like heat/speed. I like your suggestion for the C-ERPPC with splash only happening outside the optimal 90-810m range.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Fate 6, on 19 January 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

I like those suggestions Bishop and I've brought up the same thing recently, specifically with the C-ERPPC. I think a charge might be fair, and even giving PPCs a similar health to the Gauss rifle, to balance out other buffs like heat/speed. I like your suggestion for the C-ERPPC with splash only happening outside the optimal 90-810m range.

Id rather see a delay between firing over a charge to fire. Make it where we can only 1, then add like a 0.5 or 0.75s delay until we can fire another weapon. Think something like bolt action rifle between shots. I hate charge mechanics....shots dont last forever, and you need to be able to fire when you want to.....not have to worry about a stupid charge. JUst a slight delay between shots would keep us from boating them together and unleashing OP hell on the enemy with 30-50 pt CERPPC blasts of 15 each.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I've mentioned a charge mechanic in a previous thread I started, and I was ripped a new one for even suggesting it.

I don't think it would be that bad of an idea, but the gauss charge mechanic is so widely hated, I don't see it gaining any traction. People would rather boat them in a quirked mech now than even think about using them in all mechs with a charge mechanic.

I'll try and give some thought about another way.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 January 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

I've mentioned a charge mechanic in a previous thread I started, and I was ripped a new one for even suggesting it.

I don't think it would be that bad of an idea, but the gauss charge mechanic is so widely hated, I don't see it gaining any traction. People would rather boat them in a quirked mech now than even think about using them in all mechs with a charge mechanic.

I'll try and give some thought about another way.

Not really a fan of charge mechanics. Unless you get the same type of massive encounter benefits that the Gauss does, aka, 2000 m/s projectile speed.

But recall that Gauss has been decided by PGI to be a dedicated "sniper" weapon, whereas the PPC is not.

So, IDK, I am more for longer cooldowns and such, personally.

[N a p e s]

Reasonable stuff. The CERPPC does need to deal 15 pinpoint damage. The arcing was a cool idea and I'm glad PGI tried it but they need to be scarier.

[kapusta11]

Balancing weapons around small sample that we currently have due to timeline limitations was one of the most stupid things PGI could do. I guess forethought is a lostech in case of PGI.

You can't balance energy weapons because of broken heat system
You can't stop certain setups from being OP without affecting entire weapon groups because MWO lacks a mechanic that was supposed to replace hit allocation from TT (cone of fire/damage cap/weapon group cap based on weapon strength (very nice idea btw, suggested by Lily), pick whatever you like)

As for PPCs they are heavy, hot and unreliable because of projectile speed, the reward (10 damage per gun) is generaly not worth the risk (no damage applied at all, heat and tonnage spent for nothing). Fix one and they may find some use again. BUT, weapons in MWO can be either сrap or OP because if one is any good people will boat them to make them even better and thus OP.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 January 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 19 January 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Balancing weapons around small sample that we currently have due to timeline limitations was one of the most stupid things PGI could do. I guess forethought is a lostech in case of PGI.

You can't balance energy weapons because of broken heat system
You can't stop certain setups from being OP without affecting entire weapon groups because MWO lacks a mechanic that was supposed to replace hit allocation from TT (cone of fire/damage cap/weapon group cap based on weapon strength (very nice idea btw, suggested by Lily), pick whatever you like)

As for PPCs they are heavy, hot and unreliable because of projectile speed, the reward (10 damage per gun) is generaly not worth the risk (no damage applied at all, heat and tonnage spent for nothing). Fix one and they may find some use again. BUT, weapons in MWO can be either сrap or OP because if one is any good people will boat them to make them even better and thus OP.

actually I feel that the problem is that they DIDN?T properly balance things when the sample was small.


Ideal, would have been to balance the tech 1 weapons in CB, and have them set in stone as "baselines".

By doing that, adding in the tech 2 (Star League) and Tech 3 (Clan) would be a matter of balancing tradeoffs around that baseline.

Because we never had a solid baseline, and Paul's idea of balance was the uber yoyo, with a generous dollop of inconsistent bandaids on top, is why we are where we are, now.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Not really a fan of charge mechanics. Unless you get the same type of massive encounter benefits that the Gauss does, aka, 2000 m/s projectile speed.

But recall that Gauss has been decided by PGI to be a dedicated "sniper" weapon, whereas the PPC is not.

So, IDK, I am more for longer cooldowns and such, personally.

Yeah, but if we add charge to the PPC and give it GR type buffs, then we have come full circle and the entire point of the charge and PPC speed nerfs was all a waste of time.

Yeah, GR and PPC should both be pretty much mid-long range weapons. That is where they should shine.

kapusta11, on 19 January 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Balancing weapons around small sample that we currently have due to timeline limitations was one of the most stupid things PGI could do. I guess forethought is a lostech in case of PGI.

You can't balance energy weapons because of broken heat system
You can't stop certain setups from being OP without affecting entire weapon groups because MWO lacks a mechanic that was supposed to replace hit allocation from TT (cone of fire/damage cap/weapon group cap based on weapon strength (very nice idea btw, suggested by Lily), pick whatever you like)

As for PPCs they are heavy, hot and unreliable because of projectile speed, the reward (10 damage per gun) is generaly not worth the risk (no damage applied at all, heat and tonnage spent for nothing). Fix one and they may find some use again. BUT, weapons in MWO can be either сrap or OP because if one is any good people will boat them to make them even better and thus OP.

Which is why we need all the mechanics to come together. CoF, slight ERPPC buffs and reduction in heat scale. Then tweak ballistics in such a way that people dont not just go...oh, less heat, pack in the cannons!!!

[Yokaiko]

LordKnightFandragon, on 19 January 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Yeah, but if we add charge to the PPC and give it GR type buffs, then we have come full circle and the entire point of the charge and PPC speed nerfs was all a waste of time.

Yeah, GR and PPC should both be pretty much mid-long range weapons. That is where they should shine.

Yeah they were.

Untill the nerfinator murdered a TON of builds that ran a single PPC as a single.

They are generally not worth the heat for clan mechs, and debatable for IS, specially if they aren't quirked all to hell.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Ok, here is an idea...

Restore fast travel times, reasonable heat, and minimum range scaling, BUT...

Group firing 2 PPCs or ERPPCs at once causes all other weapons to instantly cycle their cool down (due to the high energy demands of the PPC).

Ex: If you fire 2 PPCs, your other weapons like your gauss or MLasers behave as though they just fired and the cool down bars recycle.

You can avoid this by chain firing PPCs or ERPPCs as it gives the engine more time to produce the necessary power.

If you try and fire 4, only 2 will fire (first 2 in the weapon list) and the other 2 will cycle.

It's an idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 19 January 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yeah they were.

Untill the nerfinator murdered a TON of builds that ran a single PPC as a single.

They are generally not worth the heat for clan mechs, and debatable for IS, specially if they aren't quirked all to hell.

this is one of my biggest peeves.

The minmax boat crowd essentially ruined it for people who ran single or double PPC mechs like VNDs, GRFs, K2s, etc.

to keep them form being too powerful boated, they are all but useless, alone now. When the PPC SHOULD be in the same lines as an ac10....hard hitting and useful solo, dang respectable in pairs, and too hot (whereas the ac10 is too heavy) to run in larger quantities without making MASSIVE trade offs in other areas.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

this is one of my biggest peeves.

The minmax boat crowd essentially ruined it for people who ran single or double PPC mechs like VNDs, GRFs, K2s, etc.

to keep them form being too powerful boated, they are all but useless, alone now. When the PPC SHOULD be in the same lines as an ac10....hard hitting and useful solo, dang respectable in pairs, and too hot (whereas the ac10 is too heavy) to run in larger quantities without making MASSIVE trade offs in other areas.

Which as a 15/15 it would be exactly that. Punchy enough to warrant packing it in, and to hot to pack more then 2.....Give the IS a 10/12 ERPPC. Hotter then their standard 10/10 PPC, better range, no minmum range,...would work well.

Only the WHK should be able to boat them with the 4 like it's prime has. And then, it should only be able to dual shot or chain fire them. At no point should it be cold enough to quad fire.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 19 January 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Cooldown and projectile speed would be my first thought.


Though, PGI seems to have difficulty in increasing cooldowns...the longest is 10 seconds, for 350 damage, followed by the SSRM6 at 6 seconds, for 12 damage.


Before quirks, the AC20, PPC, Gauss rifle, SRM6, and ML all shared the same cooldown. Notice two of these have considerably longer ranges, along with more effective use of damage.


I always thought it was silly....but then again, PGI used to have the PPC as one of the fastest cycling weapons in the game.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Ok, my last idea isn't very intuitive. Most people would think it is a crap game glitch... One more crappy idea then...(similar to the power idea).

Firing more than 2 PPCs/ERPPCs causes a "brownout" condition due to the high power demands of 3 or more PPC/ERPPCs.

Temporary affects: (Maybe about 3 to 5 seconds)
It causes the mechs movement speed to be reduced by maybe 100 engine sizes (XL300 now becomes a XL200). It affects arm movement and torso twist as well. The HUD temporarily flickers out (and zoom level is reset) and Heat or Night vision is turned off. A warning up top warns of low power (a long with B!tchin Betty).

Lastly, weapons will not cycle during the brownout. If they were not fired, they can still be fired, but their cool down will not resume till the brownout is lifted (maybe 3 seconds).

No energy penalty if chain fired.

You can alpha strike over 3 PPCs/ERPPCs but you will have to suffer a heavy movement penalty and a bit longer cool down for any weapon fired while the 3+ PPCs/ERPPCs were fired.

Risk/reward.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 19 January 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Cooldown and projectile speed would be my first thought.


Though, PGI seems to have difficulty in increasing cooldowns...the longest is 10 seconds, for 350 damage, followed by the SSRM6 at 6 seconds, for 12 damage.


Before quirks, the AC20, PPC, Gauss rifle, SRM6, and ML all shared the same cooldown. Notice two of these have considerably longer ranges, along with more effective use of damage.


I always thought it was silly....but then again, PGI used to have the PPC as one of the fastest cycling weapons in the game.

Agreed.

My thoughts?

Take the scaling damage I listed;
-C-ER PPC
0-90: 10pp with 2.5/2.5 arcing
91-810: 15 PP
811-1620: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

-ER PPC
0-90: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing
91-810: 10 PP
811-1620: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

-PPC
0-90: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing
91-540: 10 PP
541-1080: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

Place projectile speed at about 1500 m/s
Increase cooldown to 4 second for PPC, 4.5-5 for ER
Massively increase GH multiplier
Increase GH window to 1.5 seconds

Hit hard, hit far, but stay hot, very hot if boated, etc.

Probably overlooking something, but that's my 2ct

[LordKnightFandragon]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 January 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Ok, my last idea isn't very intuitive. Most people would think it is a crap game glitch... One more crappy idea then...(similar to the power idea).

Firing more than 2 PPCs/ERPPCs causes a "brownout" condition due to the high power demands of 3 or more PPC/ERPPCs.

Temporary affects: (Maybe about 3 to 5 seconds)
It causes the mechs movement speed to be reduced by maybe 100 engine sizes (XL300 now becomes a XL200). It affects arm movement and torso twist as well. The HUD temporarily flickers out (and zoom level is reset) and Heat or Night vision is turned off. A warning up top warns of low power (a long with B!tchin Betty).

Lastly, weapons will not cycle during the brownout. If they were not fired, they can still be fired, but their cool down will not resume till the brownout is lifted (maybe 3 seconds).

No energy penalty if chain fired.

You can alpha strike over 3 PPCs/ERPPCs but you will have to suffer a heavy movement penalty and a bit longer cool down for any weapon fired while the 3+ PPCs/ERPPCs were fired.

Risk/reward.

That should be a portion of the heat penalities suffered for running your heat up that high for any weapons, not just a PPC.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Agreed.

My thoughts?

Take the scaling damage I listed;
-C-ER PPC
0-90: 10pp with 2.5/2.5 arcing
91-810: 15 PP
811-1620: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

-ER PPC
0-90: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing
91-810: 10 PP
811-1620: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

-PPC
0-90: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing
91-540: 10 PP
541-1080: 5pp with 1.25/1.25 arcing

Place projectile speed at about 1500 m/s
Increase cooldown to 4 second for PPC, 4.5-5 for ER
Massively increase GH multiplier
Increase GH window to 1.5 seconds

Hit hard, hit far, but stay hot, very hot if boated, etc.

Probably overlooking something, but that's my 2ct

Yikes, GH shouldnt go that high and that bad. They are already hot enough if you just calmly chain fire them. No need to artificially inflate the heat further.