1126 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

It's something I see talked about a lot on the forum. People shaking their heads at the pinpoint convergence of mechs with 60-80 damage alpha strikes, and people who still think ghost heat was a bad solution that ultimately didn't fix the real problem.

Do the majority of players want to get rid of convergence? If you don't know what I'm talking about, convergence is the mech's ability to focus all firepower on the exact same spot, as opposed to firing weapons directly forward and thus hitting different spots depending on how far apart the weapons are mounted. Right now, two torso mounted weapons will hit the same exact spot at any range. If you removed convergence, the torso mounted weapons would fire in parallell trajectories and it would be impossible for a CPLT-K2 with gauss to hit the same Center Torso with both weapons simultaneously, for example.

Is this what the community wants, or is it simply a Vocal Minority™? Or do the majority of players actually prefer the status quo, with perfect convergence? If it's the latter, what is the more popular solution to the MWO arm's race? Is it another look at how heat works? Greater penalties for overheating?

It's an old topic, but people do change their opinions now and again. At least, some of us do. Right now, I'm really not sure what the consensus is, if there is one. Most people only post in the General forum and PGI won't let us have polls here.

[Apocryph0n]

It would certainly shake up the meta, as there would be no more such thing as "Pinpoint", TIme To Kill would go up significantly. So much stuff going on then.

The other possibilty that would be closer to canon/TT etc. would be to make weapons like WoT guns: ConeOfFire so that you can kind of aim still, but have spread (with lasers: terrible 200year old targeting computers ). Would kind of replicate the RNG roll on which component got hit and instantly remove pinpoint as well. <-not an actual suggestion btw, I have no clue how this would work out

A lot of players would be "butthurt" tho, if the skill based component of MWO, as far from lore as it is, got taken away, probably me as well. (In lore you could not hit a skyscraper with lasers beyond 500meters because that's how ****** mech hardware actually is).

If you removed the ability to pinpoint, it should not be a big deal to remove ghost heat and heat related quirks again. They are necessary to keep people from instagibbing assault mechs with a barrage of lasers/ppcs/projectiles which is a lot more scary if they all hit you in the same component. not spread all over your mech as in TT.

[pwnface]

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

I'm not overly fussed by how it is now, but if someone could think of a more elegant, realistic or immersive solution I'd give it the benefit of the doubt. I'd certainly be up for *trying* taking away convergence.

As a side note, I always imagined torso weapons were mounted on gimbals so they could track your reticule as you moved.

[Alistair Winter]

pwnface, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

I'm not talking about cone of fire, as in CounterStrike or CoD. There's nothing random about removing convergence.

[STEF_]

Yes.
High pinpoint has become ridicolus and lowered TTK to much.

Please solve convergence issue, OR, let alpha make 40-50 dmg max.

[SgtKinCaiD]

I'm all for it !

[Grand Ayatrollah]

I don't care either way, i just wish it would be the same for all mechs. Right now when i shoot both arm lasers in my Atlas at a catapult's CT, at certian distances, left laser hits one ear, right laser hits the other ear, which is half the reason Atlas is useless since beta >

Edited by Grand Ayatrollah, 20 January 2015 - 02:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I am a fan of high damage. I am not a fan of the fake pin point accuracy we have in the game.

[Eboli]

I think a slight cone of fire would make the game more interesting. Nothing drastic but if you are moving at high speed then you should not really be able to aim at a very specific point on a mech without realising you may not hit "dead"on target. If you are stationary than you should be more likely to get more pinpoint aim.

Unfortunately this means lights may cop another "nerf" but then again it may also mean that they are reduced chances of getting their legs blown off with an alpha.

Would give PGI another excuse for adding convergence modules for each weapon as well



Cheers!
Eboli

[kapusta11]

An idea was suggested on this forum to assign a class to a weapon and limit the amount of weapons of the same class that can be fired simultaneously (1xAC20, 2xPPC, 6xML 3xLL etc.), pretty damn good idea IMO and has nothing to do with RNG crap.

Otherwise boating is a way to go according to MWO rule set, you either stack a certain amount of identical weapons or you stack weapons that share same damage delivery mechanic (FLD, laser vomiting). Mixed loadouts are penalized by the fact that you require more time to apply damage and thus suffer from increased exposure time. If you split current alphas in just 2 separate shots hitting same spot consistently would be much harder and you wouldn't benefit from using weapons of same type all that much.

Edited by kapusta11, 20 January 2015 - 02:21 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

As a Clanner I say yes, get rid of all convergence!
(the reason is that Clans don't have any and nerfing it will consequently mean I survive longer against IS targets)

On a more serious note, it it a complicated manner.
The thing is, even without convergence IS has easier time applying their damage to specific location while Clans struggle, making up for it with higher DMG and more "IN YOUR FACE" attitude. I don't see this as a big problem because if I get rekt it is always because of 2-3 enemies focusing solely on me and showing admirable aim. I don't want to take this reward from those cooperating and skilled, so I am against any further nerfing of this.

[Ursh]

pwnface, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

Cool, make it a shooter then. Instead of armor allocated to specific components, I get one big pool of armor for my front, one big pool for my back, and a small pool for my head. After a certain amount of damage, the game rolls to determine if a weapon or location has taken critical damage.

See, you'd have your shooter game then, and most of the problems with PPFLD and insta-convergence are severely reduced.

[Joseph Mallan]

pwnface, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

How many rounds have you fired at a rifle range? Before you answer that also understand that, a GPS guided shell/missile is accurate within a +/- 5 meter RADIUS. Now How good a shot are you? I can put 7 out of 10 shots in a target the size of a human head at 500m using iron sights... and I think the PP targeting is BS.

kapusta11, on 20 January 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

An idea was suggested on this forum to assign a class to a weapon and limit the amount of weapons of the same class that can be fired simultaneously (1xAC20, 2xPPC, 6xML 3xLL etc.), pretty damn good idea IMO and has nothing to do with RNG crap.

Actually its a bad idea. Unless there is no way at all to open up convergence.

[Ursh]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 January 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

How many rounds have you fired at a rifle range? Before you answer that also understand that, a GPS guided shell/missile is accurate within a +/- 5 meter RADIUS. Now How good a shot are you? I can put 7 out of 10 shots in a target the size of a human head at 500m using iron sights... and I think the PP targeting is BS.


Actually its a bad idea. Unless there is no way at all to open up convergence.

Joseph, I think if we took a lot of FPS gamers out to a rifle range they'd be shocked to find out how difficult it actually can be to hit a stationary target from range, let alone a moving one. Even if you gave a lot of them the 300m simulated silhouette on the 25m zeroing range they'd have trouble hitting it.

[Apocryph0n]

True@Joseph.

The tech you are using is hundreds of years old.

In the novels pilots had trouble shooting assault mechs at close range because they were walking. Imagine that: Imagine you could not hit a 50kph atlas (which is higher than the normal cruise speed anyways) with a laser at 100m.


BTT:

Removing convergence on anything but Arms would be cool, i guess, that's what arms are for, right? Also makes people place their most precious weaponry in the low armored arms again, which prevents "shielding" sides to a certain degree. Also you could make them converge slowly, and make the "Pinpoint" skill accelerate arm convergence.


Still a pretty hard decision. I can't decide between "being able to aim where I wanna shoot" and a more realistic "Mounted weapons are mounted." approach

[Lily from animove]

people want the instant high alpha PP gone.

there are many ways to achieve this.
Two that I think can do it:

make it impossible to fire X weapons within the same timeframe. this would cause people fire in sequences ---> PP gone.

make a cone of fire

other possibilities seem hardly be feasable with the client server architecture and the engine we have atm.

I would choose the first one, because then pilot aim keeps a skill parameter in the game, especially when you fight heavily downsized light mechs a cone of fire will already untouchable lighs be able to tank 2x the firepower an assault can tank. A big issue. The cone of fire in general would again favor specific mechs over others by the geometry and hitboxes they have.

so limiting the amount of possible PP weapons is probably the most faires way to go. Can be done with limiting the amount of weapons fired, or limiting heat.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 January 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 20 January 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

people want the instant high alpha PP gone.

there are many ways to achieve this.
Two that I think can do it:

make it impossible to fire X weapons within the same timeframe. this would cause people fire in sequences ---> PP gone.

make a cone of fire

other possibilities seem hardly be feasable with the client server architecture and the engine we have atm.

I would choose the first one, because then pilot aim keeps a skill parameter in the game, especially when you fight heavily downsized light mechs a cone of fire will already untouchable lighs be able to tank 2x the firepower an assault can tank. A big issue. The cone of fire in general would again favor specific mechs over others by the geometry and hitboxes they have.

so limiting the amount of possible PP weapons is probably the most faires way to go. Can be done with limiting the amount of weapons fired, or limiting heat.

Id rather a CoF over limiting My way to fight. I'm an unabashed heavy hitter. I love smashing the alpha to make you say OUCH! I studied Wing Chun Do So I could learn how to hit someone with the equivalent of 10 times my body weight with a single punch! Thats right a Punch hitting with 2,840lbs of force!

[Latorque]

I shudder to think of the sudden surge in popularity of autotargeting weapon systems. Those things deliver by themselves.

Eternal Night by a sun blocked out by LRMs / SSRMs anyone?

In addition: convergenge is as much a mechanical issue as it may be related to targeting computers. Gun harmonisation was a already a thing in WW1-era fighterplanes; and no matter how decrepit the state of IS-technology may be; i can't imagine engineers being unable to skew the muzzles a millimeter or two closer towards each other.

The ridiculously close ranged matches MW are partially explained by the lore; but in that case we may take "taking a catapult to the match" quite literal, since we would be technically back to flintlock muskets and pikes.

Speaking of pikes; if convergence goes out the window, i very much want close combat weapons for my mechs.

So; all in all - considering the alternatives that come to mind (there may be some i don't think of); i'd rather have convergence stay in place.

Edited by Latorque, 20 January 2015 - 02:40 AM.

[kapusta11]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 January 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

Actually its a bad idea. Unless there is no way at all to open up convergence.

Bad because...? You have something better in mind that does not involve RNG stuff like cone of fire or inability to fire where you aim for which no one will accept? And delayed convergence is basically a gauss charge in nature. Face it it's not only bad for the majority of playerbase but is also bad for business as the result.

And btw, the idea could be expanded to insted of restricting fire of multiple weapons into penalizing it with your so desired cone of fire, everyone's happy.

Edited by kapusta11, 20 January 2015 - 02:43 AM.