70 replies to this topic

[process]

Clans may very well still be OP, but we're never going to achieve balance when we have outliers like the 9S skewing the game. Quirks should be used to fill in the holes and level the playing field, not build mountains over it.

Edited by process, 13 February 2015 - 01:47 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

lsp, on 13 February 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Neither of those can compete with anything the clan brings in CW. The TDR-5SS is a great mech for the niche it's quirks put it in, until it's nerfed too. But it's a short range mech.

Wait isn't the whole complaint against the MPL laser vomit of clans?! There's not way you can be talking about the cERLL because that sack of crap requires 1.5s of facetime and gets torn apart by 9s.

5ss is one mean machine and consistently will destroy a SCR in a brawl along with either cripple or severely damage a TBR.


I'm going to point out the hypocrasy of you complaining about hitboxes, the Stormcrow is nowhere near as bad as the Firestarter&Spiders, along with any fast light benefiting from the lag shield.

Play Sulphurous, and watch a 12 man light mech team win in one rush against laser vomit TBRs and SCRs.

6k got a damage buff and extra range with roughly same burn time...
9s will still be a beast.

Orions may be formidable as well with buffs, and don't forget the rest of the list coming out.

Dragon 1N is a wicked DPS machine as well.

[Apnu]

Metus regem, on 13 February 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

I could so get on board with these ideas if they were ever implmented.

I think every clanner would. I'm a strict IS player and I'd be on board with it. Russ stated they wanted the clans to have their own "feel" so that's why they put in the missiles the way they are and the bursting ACs (which is sometimes mentioned in the books, so there's a canon excuse but its a flimsy one). But I think that's just window dressing. If they really wanted the clans to "feel" like another race like in other MMOs, they should have given them different operational rules. Like 10v12 and match bidding c-bill incentives. (which goes without saying, that would solve clan's c-bill cost issues).

[Apnu]

process, on 13 February 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Clans may very well still be OP, but we're never goning to achieve balance when we have outliers like the 9S skewing the game. Quirks should be used to fill in the holes and level the playing field, not build mountains over it.

Agreed. I hate driving the 9S, its not my play style. I felt it needed a nerf because greedy gamers were exploiting the hell out of it. That's why we can't have nice things. You'd think gamers would learn and not dogpile on a strategy in a game. Every game dev ever brings out the nerf bat when that happens.

[Apnu]

shad0w4life, on 13 February 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Play Sulphurous, and watch a 12 man light mech team win in one rush against laser vomit TBRs and SCRs.

Yeah but that's a coin toss. If the clan team picked streak boats they'd eat those lights. But you can't really predict what the first wave will be. So if one team picks the right drop deck, they'll wreck the other team fast. That's a bit "if" tho.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Apnu, on 13 February 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

You forget the clan lasers have greater range and more damage than IS counterparts. Despite the long burn time, the cerML has a better DPS than the ML.

IS medium laser:
Damage: 5.00
Heat: 4.00
Cooldown: 3.00
Range: 270
Max range: 540
Slots: 1
Tons: 1.0
Duration: 0.90
DPS: 1.28
DPH: 1.25
DPS/T: 1.28
HPS: 1.03

Clan ER Medium Lasers
Damage: 7.00
Heat: 6.00
Cooldown: 3.00
Range: 405
Max Range: 810
Slots: 1
Tons: 1.0
Duration: 1.15
DPS: 1.69
DPH: 1.17
DPS/T: 1.69
HPS: 1.45

Source: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eam_innersphere

HPS does make a significant difference on maps like Sulphur.

As an example to just show quirks Toss in %25 cooldown, %25 heat, %25 burn time, %25 range on the mls

2.25s cooldown, 0.7s burn time, 3 Heat....all of a sudden you have 2MLs doing more dmg than clan erML for same heat, you get to fire off the IS ML before the cERML is ready

You can't look at stock weapons now, that's why quirks were added.

Battlemaster might be the new IS CW Champ.

Apnu, on 13 February 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

Yeah but that's a coin toss. If the clan team picked streak boats they'd eat those lights. But you can't really predict what the first wave will be. So if one team picks the right drop deck, they'll wreck the other team fast. That's a bit "if" tho.

Yup, 1/4 chance, and those streaks don't always register faithfully either. However is it fair that one team has a massive advantage and the other HAS to guess for the right timing to avoid getting decimated. Even brawling though 8SPL firestarters can easily drop Timbers and Stormcrows. 12 of those little ******** can leg a whole team.

Not quite sure this is the be all end all utter destruction with the 9s now doing 20PPFLD dmg.

Edited by shad0w4life, 13 February 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Apnu, on 13 February 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

You forget the clan lasers have greater range and more damage than IS counterparts. Despite the long burn time, the cerML has a better DPS than the ML.

IS medium laser:
Damage: 5.00
Heat: 4.00
Cooldown: 3.00
Range: 270
Max range: 540
Slots: 1
Tons: 1.0
Duration: 0.90
DPS: 1.28
DPH: 1.25
DPS/T: 1.28
HPS: 1.03

Clan ER Medium Lasers
Damage: 7.00
Heat: 6.00
Cooldown: 3.00
Range: 405
Max Range: 810
Slots: 1
Tons: 1.0
Duration: 1.15
DPS: 1.69
DPH: 1.17
DPS/T: 1.69
HPS: 1.45

Source: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eam_innersphere

And you cannot bring 4 without also taking 20 DHS.

cMPLs are at 150% heat, 2 additional points of heat, for reduced range and gaining a single point of damage. Not nearly worth that 150% tradeoff.

ERSLs and SPLs are arguably worth it, with the range and damage boost.

[Apnu]

Johnny Z, on 13 February 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

You forgot more damage on all weapons. Why everyone forget that?

Point.

I don't often bring it up because I don't want to get into the weeds about long burn lasers, trickle LRMs and bursting ACs. It just opens the door more for clan whiners.

I'm not saying all clanners are whiners, but there are some. There are also IS whiners too.

The thing that annoys me in this game is the clans are given more advantages than disadvantages (lighter weapons & tech, better range, more crit slots, omnipods vs fixed assets and engines) but PGI insists on keeping the clans matched to the IS ton-for-ton, mech-for-mech and saying its balanced, or that they'll fix balance with nerfs and buffs.

I think PGI is wrong about 12v12 and tonnage matching.

[Metus regem]

Apnu, on 13 February 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

Yeah but that's a coin toss. If the clan team picked streak boats they'd eat those lights. But you can't really predict what the first wave will be. So if one team picks the right drop deck, they'll wreck the other team fast. That's a bit "if" tho.

Also depends if it is a premade vs. PUG's...

The last CW match I did, and the one I feel the worst about, was we (CGBI) did a Jumping Timber Wolf rush, 12 Timber Wolves jumped the gate, 11 were laser vomit, 1 Wasn't (that one, was me)...

That match left me feeling a little dirty, since it was against PUGS, and we had the omega in one go.

[Apnu]

shad0w4life, on 13 February 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

HPS does make a significant difference on maps like Sulphur.

As an example to just show quirks Toss in %25 cooldown, %25 heat, %25 burn time, %25 range on the mls

2.25s cooldown, 0.7s burn time, 3 Heat....all of a sudden you have 2MLs doing more dmg than clan erML for same heat, you get to fire off the IS ML before the cERML is ready

You can't look at stock weapons now, that's why quirks were added.

Battlemaster might be the new IS CW Champ.

I'm talking about tech v tech in general and clanners complaining how bad they have it. They don't. Quirks are supposed to even that all out, to calm the shouting of IS players. Now we have shouting clan players who want more advantages tilted towards them and that's my point.

As for Sulphur, that's the luck of the draw. Pull Vault and then heat its not as much an issue.

Time will tell on the BLR as a CW monster. Its 85 tons of a 240 deck, that's a big chunk of tonnage. Compared to 65 tons of the TDR, you have more tonnage to bring other things. If the IS tilts to lights and assaults generally, then we'll hear more grief on the forums.

Mcgral18, on 13 February 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

And you cannot bring 4 without also taking 20 DHS.

Clans have a better chance to get 20 DHS than IS does. Two slot DHS! To do the same on a IS mech you have to take a standard engine and no ES or FF. You're punished on weight for space.

Metus regem, on 13 February 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Also depends if it is a premade vs. PUG's...

The last CW match I did, and the one I feel the worst about, was we (CGBI) did a Jumping Timber Wolf rush, 12 Timber Wolves jumped the gate, 11 were laser vomit, 1 Wasn't (that one, was me)...

That match left me feeling a little dirty, since it was against PUGS, and we had the omega in one go.

Dude that is dirty. Damn. There's nothing the IS has that can replicate that.

Heaviest and most armored heavy in the clans? Check!
Jumping over the gates? Check!
Laser vomit? Check!

I guess the clans have their answer to the light rush.

[Black Arachne]

Yeah sorry - it wasn't OK for the Thunderbolt to be the PPC God - that title should only belong to two mechs. The Awesome and the Warhawk.

[Metus regem]

Apnu, on 13 February 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Dude that is dirty. Damn. There's nothing the IS has that can replicate that.

Heaviest and most armored heavy in the clans? Check!
Jumping over the gates? Check!
Laser vomit? Check!

I guess the clans have their answer to the light rush.

As I said, atleast I wasn't one of the 11 with laser vomit....

[process]

Black Arachne, on 13 February 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Yeah sorry - it wasn't OK for the Thunderbolt to be the PPC God - that title should only belong to two mechs. The Awesome and the Warhawk.

And to a lesser extent, Panther, Vindicator, K2 and a couple others.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Black Arachne, on 13 February 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Yeah sorry - it wasn't OK for the Thunderbolt to be the PPC God - that title should only belong to two mechs. The Awesome and the Warhawk.

And yet even then, those mechs shouldnt have, at any point, 50% less heat for PPCs of any caliber.....20-30%, sure, even then, I personally wouldnt go more then 20%.....PPCs should be hot, they should be punchy and they should be fast traveling. I kinda wish PGI would get "faction specific" with hte ERPPCs...

IS ERPPC: 10/13.5(then quirk it, adjust quirks to where it is no less then 10-11 heat) 4s CD, 1200-1300ms (770m range)
CERPPC: 15/15 4.5s CD, 1200ms(Quirks certain CERPPC mechs to have a bit better velocity with 10-15% more velocity).(810m range)

But thats just personally how I would rework it.

IS ERPPC, lower damage, slightly faster Cool down, slightly bit more base velocity, colder overall, bit less range
CERPPC: higher PPD(Since Clans have 1 other PPD weapon, give em 2), hotter, little bit slower base velocity, little bit longer CD.

[Serpieri]

PGI is King when it comes to....

[Black Arachne]

LordKnightFandragon, on 13 February 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

And yet even then, those mechs shouldnt have, at any point, 50% less heat for PPCs of any caliber.....20-30%, sure, even then, I personally wouldnt go more then 20%.....PPCs should be hot, they should be punchy and they should be fast traveling. I kinda wish PGI would get "faction specific" with hte ERPPCs...

IS ERPPC: 10/13.5(then quirk it, adjust quirks to where it is no less then 10-11 heat) 4s CD, 1200-1300ms (770m range)
CERPPC: 15/15 4.5s CD, 1200ms(Quirks certain CERPPC mechs to have a bit better velocity with 10-15% more velocity).(810m range)

But thats just personally how I would rework it.

IS ERPPC, lower damage, slightly faster Cool down, slightly bit more base velocity, colder overall, bit less range
CERPPC: higher PPD(Since Clans have 1 other PPD weapon, give em 2), hotter, little bit slower base velocity, little bit longer CD.

Awesome/Warhawk should be able to fire 3ERPPCs in two volleys before switching down to 2ERPPCs for cool down to avoid shutdown.

[Mystere]

Apnu, on 13 February 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

My point is, clans Both sides have huge advantages that many clan whiners on both sides around here over look.

FTFY.

[process]

It's especially difficult when there are multiple buffs applied to the same weapon on one chassis, you end up with a huge disparity between a relatively underperforming weapon and an OP one. I'd be interested to see a general buff to PPCs, and then modest quirks.

For instance, give PPCs their speed back, but adjust the heat and/or cooldown such that it's not economical to use more than 2 at a time. Then allow the Awesome to effectively fire 3 via single heat reduction quirk.

The same can be said for the current quirks strategy in general, with specific weapons getting double the buff from the general weapon class. As others have said, the general/specific buff ought to be something like 75/25 instead of 50/50.

[Anarcho]

[Euphoric1RW]

lsp, on 13 February 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Now that the clan cry babies have gotten their way and the TDR-9S and Wolverine 6k are getting nerfed into uselessness and non existant, it's time for the clans turn.

When is the ridiculously over powered Stormcrow getting it's hitboxes nerfed? When are clan Xl engines getting nerfed? When is the Timbergod getting nerfed into the ground? You cry and cry until the only viable IS heavy is nerfed, I want to see the same thing happen to you. Oh, except you still have the Hellbringer and the Vulture, where as we have nothing that can compete in CW.

Quotes from Skye Rangers

"Until I see less than 7-9 Hellbringers/Timbys/Stromcrows on the average Clan team, then I see no issue with 7-9 9S's on the field at any given time.

The problem with the 9S: it's all alone on it's high pedestal. Everyone has one because it's so much more compatible with CW than any other IS mech. IMO there's only a few things to do: make more IS mechs compatible with vs-Clan CW. I think they should give several more IS laser mechs a serious buff combination of cooldown/range/heat-reduction. The 4N was a rough start. I'd also love to see them modify the 3crit=dead engine rule to make all XL's function the same, but fat chance on that.

Clan weaponry in CW is mostly laser vomit on medium and heavy mechs. That means infinite ammo at decent range, and also allows high alpha strikes for a given weight. What does IS have to compare besides the 9S? I don't count the Firestarter because I personally can take them down MUCH easier than a Hellbringer/Timby/Stromcrow. Most other mechs have quirks/loadouts that are less heat efficient, have less range, or much lower alphas than a c-ERML build for a similar weight"


"#1 Stormcrow - this mech has spectacular hitboxes that let it take more punishment than it reasonably should. It also has enough of a variety of hardpoints to let it do whatever you would like it to do and the speed is great for a medium.

#2 Timberwolf - a 75 ton mech that goes 89 kph, can amount a wide array of weaponry and potentially has JJ. It has good hitboxes and despite your statement otherwise the CT is not really that big. It has the maneuverability to spread damage and armament to dish it out.

#3 Hellbringer - A heavy with good hardpoints and ECM. Hitboxes are ok but nothing to write home about. Still ahead of the Dire in being OP but this is mostly because of the ECM.

Honorable mention - Mad dog - good at missle boating obviously but hit boxes leave side torsos vulnerable, good speed and fills a certain niche in competitive drops but not overtly more OP than the dire."