192 replies to this topic

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

I'm not saying it isn't a valid tactic.

I'm not saying it should be nerfed.

What I am saying is that whenever I have encountered a Kurita 8 man + I know what is coming: Light Rush. Out of my last 12 games against Kurita units I have seen it 10 times.

I am curious as to why this strategy is so wide spread in the Draconis Combine.

Again, not flaming, just interested as to why it is so wide spread in the Draconis Combine in that I barely ever see it from FRR or Steiner.

Edited by Blueduck, 01 March 2015 - 09:34 PM.

[Stealth Raptor]

kurita is in a situation where we need to get ticks and fast. i think normally we are pretty fine with just regular drops, but like tonight trying to sneak chatham from csj late the only realistic ways are light rushes.

as much as i like good matches, at the same time we also will do whatever it takes to win

[Tasker]

"Hey guy who are outnumber on 3 fronts, why you use tactic to get planet faster?"

[MischiefSC]

If it's broke, don't fix it until everyone has gotten bored of abusing the holy living **** out of it.

The light rush is pretty broke. Light mechs need to be broke a bit so they're not worthless in pug queue. In CW, 12 lights all doing 150+ breaks hitreg like we're all on dial-up. So you get 12 mechs that don't register most hits popping 30 pt alphas like pills at an Oscars after-party.

Of course people exploit the crap out of it. It's effective. When PPCs were stupid insane broke up one side and down the other, you had to boat them or you were at a huge disadvantage.

When possible and when it's not time sensitive people try to avoid it. However when the chips are down and you need to just bust out wins you could run 3 Spider + FS waves, then 1 wave of Assaults + DPS heavies and snooze your way through win after win.

With like 3 matches of practice you could get 12 drunken hobos to win 75% of attack matches doing that. You can do it with trials if you need to.

It's what works, that is what it is. Not sure if there is a way to fix it without buggering lights overall.

When you need a fast win though and you're on attack... yeah. You can swarm the crap out of someone for a fast win.

[An Anime Princess]

Blueduck, on 01 March 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

I am curious as to why this strategy is so wide spread in the Draconis Combine.

we're all buff, sexy fighter pilots

[LoklanZFG]

MischiefSC, on 01 March 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

It's what works, that is what it is. Not sure if there is a way to fix it without buggering lights overall.

http://mwomercs.com/...ign-suggestion/

And to the OP: If we only have a 1-2 hour window where we actually have a numbers advantage on a front, we want to use it to build up as much control as possible on the planet we are attacking. 5 minute wins when we can get them help a lot with this, and keeps us from losing the planet if the opposing faction dumps bodies on it en masse later on.

Edited by LoklanZFG, 01 March 2015 - 11:15 PM.

[Koshirou]

Can't say we use "much" light rushing, but we did it a few times last night to capture Minakuchi. Echoing what others said: When time is of the essence and you want to capture a planet, you rush.

On a more abstract level: People use rushes* because the way CW is set up both strategically and tactically provides incentives to do so. I see the problem this poses, but it cannot really be fixed by the player base. It is PGI's job to design CW to produce the tactical experience they want to see.

* Not just light rushes... Clan Stormcrow rushes are nearly as effective, as far as I can tell from being on the receiving end a few times.

[MischiefSC]

Kieranator, on 02 March 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

Actually you need to learn how to aim, cheers.

Love that one. Ppcs were awesome too at the height of the ds poptart meta. Then it was "don't stand in the open".

If a mechanic is broken, not exploiting it puts you at a disadvantage. We all get that. Pretending that it's somehow a tough or high skill thing isn't fooling anyone.

[Ron Ron]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

Love that one. Ppcs were awesome too at the height of the ds poptart meta. Then it was "don't stand in the open".

If a mechanic is broken, not exploiting it puts you at a disadvantage. We all get that. Pretending that it's somehow a tough or high skill thing isn't fooling anyone.

Nobody thinks lightrushing is a proof of high skill or a very hard thing to do. Its just extremely effective against teams not good enough to deal with it. Sort of like LRMs which sure seem OP against people with a grand total of 3 games under their belt and then get worse to useless the better the player pool gets

[Tarl Cabot]

Tis like Assault in public queue, the difference is the need to trade time for C-Bills. In the public queue actually winning by capturing the base is rarely done but attempting to capture it forces the opposing team to make a decision on how to continue. Attempting to make a quick CW win appear to be shameful has failed though, especially when the opposing faction is attempting to overwhelm with numbers. Time is of the essence.

IMO, the modes in CW should be switched around though, or at least altered to destroy the generators + 50% of the defenders. Destroying at least 50% of the defenders would be akin to destroying part of the workforce that could repair/rebuild while also reducing the number of forces available for a counter-attack. Otherwise there is no real reason to fully engage the enemy as there is only one real objective.

You are a fedrat, thus no real explanation is required.

[MischiefSC]

Ron Ron, on 02 March 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

Nobody thinks lightrushing is a proof of high skill or a very hard thing to do. Its just extremely effective against teams not good enough to deal with it. Sort of like LRMs which sure seem OP against people with a grand total of 3 games under their belt and then get worse to useless the better the player pool gets

Light rush bridges the skill gap - takes 10x more skill to beat than it takes to execute. That is why it is a broken mechanic. Hitreg issues, huge hard point inflation on firestarters. There is never going to be a point where that isn't the case - teams that put that same effort into improving their light rush will see a commensurate advantage on attack drops.

This isn't a mystery, it just pays poorly and is boring after a few hundred drops. There is not some skill parity level where light rush is LRM caliber bad though. It takes a significant skill disparity to shut a light rush down. That is why it works.

Edited by MischiefSC, 02 March 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[Crockdaddy]

Official Response:: (sarcasm)

1. At times we have to quick cap. We have members ***** pretty much the entire time about light rushing. I admit I ***** about it too. We want fights ... but have too many fronts to fight on as already stated.
2. For NS and NKVA, we get camped hard by enemy units. Several prominent CSJ units essentially "hide" for the entirety of the match if the match is a defense and hold. This is a very valid tactic ... it ties up one of the Elite HK units / 12 man groups. For attacking into say Boreal against a clan unit ready for long range work is rough to do unless you have your "A" team online and ready to go. So even though we win nearly 100% of these matches ... it drains nearly 30 minutes off the clock each time.
3. See point #2 as to why we have to quick cap so often even though it often sucks for us too.



NOTE:
JGx has never hidden from NS (in case you guys are reading this) nor has DERP. Just a few units have used the tactic you guys fight hard and punish our light rushes and in fact seem to magically know how to stop or close to stopping them.

Edited by CrockdaddyAoD, 02 March 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[MungFuSensei]

We've beaten light rushes. We've beaten triple light rushes. We've beaten light rushes on Sulfurous, the hardest map to defend.

I'll let you in on a little secret. ]NS[ doesn't have super amazing players. Our dream team can throw down with the best, but we rarely have them all assembled in one place. The majority of our players are average skill (myself included). We even have a guy who plays with a track pad. We had players that didn't know you had to buy modules after unlocking them.

However, what we do have is amazing callers. That's our secret to success. That's it.

Point is, we're not special. We don't do things that the average team is incapable of doing. So if we can beat light rushes, why can't you?

[Kerc Kasha]

MungFuSensei, on 02 March 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

We've beaten light rushes. We've beaten triple light rushes. We've beaten light rushes on Sulfurous, the hardest map to defend.

I'll let you in on a little secret. ]NS[ doesn't have super amazing players. Our dream team can throw down with the best, but we rarely have them all assembled in one place. The majority of our players are average skill (myself included). We even have a guy who plays with a track pad. We had players that didn't know you had to buy modules after unlocking them.

However, what we do have is amazing callers. That's our secret to success. That's it.

Point is, we're not special. We don't do things that the average team is incapable of doing. So if we can beat light rushes, why can't you?

Solid tactics and coordination helps a lot too

[Tasker]

CrockdaddyAoD, on 02 March 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

2. For NS and NKVA, we get camped hard by enemy units. Several prominent CSJ units essentially "hide" for the entirety of the match if the match is a defense and hold. This is a very valid tactic ... it ties up one of the Elite HK units / 12 man groups. For attacking into say Boreal against a clan unit ready for long range work is rough to do unless you have your "A" team online and ready to go. So even though we win nearly 100% of these matches ... it drains nearly 30 minutes off the clock each time.

[SnagaDance]

It's Canon: http://www.sarna.net...ercer_Ravannion

[MischiefSC]

Have beaten light rush plenty of times. Comes down to having the right build and right map position, sometimes that is lights off your own and sometimes it's high ppfld builds on the right fire lanes depending on the map. A good light rush is knowing how to stymie both of those. Bang for the buck a light rush series with a solid plan beats just about anything.

Can a team of better pilots overcome that? Sure. You'll get further with the right zerg rush than a heavy push on attack though.

[Bashfulsalamander]

So is something broken because some one is just to stupid to counter it?

Secondly in an early post by the davion... 12 mechs moving 150kph dont register hits..... well then either use other mechs that move 150+kph and leg them, or stand by a gen with something that can kill them in 1 shot after they slow down, which they will do.

Lastly from the games i have been in usually we do only one light rush then farm the enemy team in a brawler, sniper, or whatever fight. So once again if you know there will be a light rush you should be able to prepare for it easily.

Oh and one more thing..... we a kurita.... we prefer fast mechs and we have alot of japanese soldiers.... KAMIKAZE!!!!!! NIHON BANSAI!!!!!!

[MischiefSC]

Blaming exploiting a broken mechanic on other people not being better than you to overcome it is stupid. It's the same logic that was used to justify lrmageddon and ppc spam days. Broken mechanic is broken. I get why and I can certainly use (and do use) the same thing. Same as I boated ppcs for 18 months of ppcspam days. Doesn't make it not broken.

[Kerc Kasha]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Blaming exploiting a broken mechanic on other people not being better than you to overcome it is stupid. It's the same logic that was used to justify lrmageddon and ppc spam days. Broken mechanic is broken. I get why and I can certainly use (and do use) the same thing. Same as I boated ppcs for 18 months of ppcspam days. Doesn't make it not broken.

it is not broken. if anything is broken it's the assault mechanics where rushing objectives and ignoring the enemy is viable. there is so many easily performed tactics that can stop light rushes dead in it's tracks with no skill just a bit of coordination