437 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 March 2015 - 02:23 AM, said:

Would you be amenable to allowing clans to swap to standard engines (and install ES if they don't have it) if the penalties get too steep? you wouldn't use an IS XL in a stalker, and you SURE AS HELL wouldn't use one in a Mad Dog.

What I find hilarious here is that alot of the replies are directing the discussion like the Omni mechs are underpowered and the Inner Sphere mechs are OP.

Unreal.

[Widowmaker1981]

Johnny Z, on 17 March 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

What I find hilarious here is that alot of the replies are directing the discussion like the Omni mechs are underpowered and the Inner Sphere mechs are OP.

Unreal.

Because, with the exception of the Timberwolf, Stormcrow, Hellbringer and Direwolf.. Omnimechs ARE UP compared to IS mechs (not expecting you to admit that though)

Have a quick look at this video, from the perspective of a good semi comp 8 man, running full meta mechs (3xDires, 2xTimbers, 2xScrows, Firestarter) against our mishmash of mainly IS mechs (think only 2 assaults, a BNC-3M and a BLR-3S). Leave the audio on. Shows the advantages of IS tech (short duration, cool running high mounted lasers)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 March 2015 - 02:45 AM.

[Detriitus]

I am playing only clan mechs for the time being and think that this change (10-20% speed reduction) is absolutely called for, regardless of which clan mech we are talking about. Getting the enginge balance right is like setting the stage for all the actors to audition - coaching individual needs works better once the overall framework is established for everyone.

[Bleary]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 March 2015 - 02:23 AM, said:

Would you be amenable to allowing clans to swap to standard engines (and install ES if they don't have it) if the penalties get too steep? you wouldn't use an IS XL in a stalker, and you SURE AS HELL wouldn't use one in a Mad Dog.

I'd use an XL in some of the Stalker variants if losing a ST didn't destroy my 'Mech. Nerfed Clan XLs are still not going to be remotely comparable to IS XLs.

[Chuck Jager]

Wintersdark, on 16 March 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

I like it, particularly if it leads to a Clan AC improvement. While I'm unhappy that it'll hurt the already bad clan mechs too, it may as well lead to finally unlocked ES/FF.

The overall strength of the good mechs have prevented clan changes that would help these weaker mechs before, for fear they'd have pushed the trinity too far ahead.

This has absolutely nothing to do with ACs. Clan ACs are just as different as the heatsinks and the medium laser ranges. They are different. If you want the good take the bad.

[Bleary]

Of course it relates to Clan ACs. And any other balance change they want to make to Clan equipment. Significantly buffing the Clan ACs as is would've just made the top Omnis even stronger.

[Nasinil]

Don't see why people still think clan mechs need more nerfs. they run hot they can't change engine, fixed JJ's, locked ES FF. They still stand while an ST is gone. Like any non XL build with the drawback of loosing half your weapons. Normally loosig a ST is the death for my Timberwolf anyway. I still have to say that my IS mechs perform better than my clan mechs. Only the direwolf can be a real pain in the ass in one on one situations.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bleary, on 17 March 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

I'd use an XL in some of the Stalker variants if losing a ST didn't destroy my 'Mech. Nerfed Clan XLs are still not going to be remotely comparable to IS XLs.

Sure. But they also shouldnt be, because clans cannot change their engine sizes (there are a total of 4 clan mechs with a sensibly sized engine - Mad dog, Hellbringer, Warhawk and Summoner.. Nova and Stormcrow arent far off. and other than the SCrow none of those have endo steel). Locked mechlab is supposed to be a balancing factor for slightly better tech.

TBH i really wish they would release the Kingfisher so people would stfu about C-Xls, because it will be better than all the other clan assaults due to profile/hardpoint placement - even though it has a STD engine.

Most clan mechs DO NOT GET THE WEIGHT SAVING FROM THE XL. Its wasted by not equipping endo steel and using stupidly oversized engines.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Never thought about this, but kind of like it. Have to think about the ramifications, but that might be just the type of "light nerf" that would work for those two.

For the Direwolf? Just disable the Armlock Crutch, lol.


I'm fine with it, because they are SUPPOSED TO HAVE IT.

Thus, if someone is getting their knickers in a twist, oh well. It's still a huge advantage in most cases. Being able to do over 90 in my HBK-4G and then be slower and hotter after losing a torso? It's a tradeoff from being a ZOmbie, but one that could be very worthwhile.

Also, IMO,. these are the type of balance tweaks needed to be able to better justify unlocking things like Endo.

I would rather leave endo/ferro locked and give IS the LFEs now...

[JohnnyWayne]

More clan nerfs? Ok, then give IS stockmechs only.

Omni Mechs are a joke already and all the butthurt IS players with their overquriked aborminations are a insult to each of them.

[Gyrok]

Hillslam, on 16 March 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

OH its so brutal you have to go only 80% of your top speed. a travesty. a crime. tt. lore yo. tell a lie enough. and so on.

Clearly its much better to get blown to pieces.... *dude shhh quiet*

/sarcasm

*whiny clan b**ches*

Of course some of the cagier clan players are going "hmm, seems reasonable"... because it is utterly an unnoticable non-factor just like the heat was.

Lore and balance in this game are 2 separate things. As much as I wish they would have stuck to lore in some arenas, I have to admit, they tossed so much out to this point, that your argument is fail on this one. A mech losing mobility for losing a component while driving with *THE ONLY ENGINE OPTION IT HAS BECAUSE THE ENGINE IS LOCKED* is not really a reasonable request, at all. The IS get to choose too much.

I would be fine with this if the IS suddenly lost the ability to change out their engines at all. Whatever the stock engine was goes back into your mech and you cannot change it.

You good with that? Maybe we should also lock your internals too? SHS? Endo? Ferro? Then, I would be ok with TT rules coming in. If IS had to play by the same rules and run the same tech and lore scenario from TT, then sure. Bring it on! You can run around in your STD engine at 65-70 kph with your SHS and no endo/ferro with locked internals and sub your weapons around with your 14-16 tons of weapons on your 70 ton mech.

If you are not good with that, I suggest you revise your position.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

I would rather leave endo/ferro locked and give IS the LFEs now...

I wouldn't. Because the "nerf" doesn't realistically make that huge an impact on combat effectiveness in most cases. Once you lose a side, unless you are sword and board, you are usually a dead man walking. It is well worth being less effective in this scenario if you can be more effective a contributor earlier in the match, which Endo tonnage would allow in many cases.

Front loading your mech and your teams damage potential is ALWAYS more desirable than chasing the survivability Unicorn. The pew pew CN9 running around the match with no STs generally contributes far less than people want to believe. Ditto the half missing KitFox, Nova, etc.

And by laying these sensible "nerfs" which are still better than IS XLs by a long ways, it allows more global balancing to finally be looked at, which could potentially lead to things like some of the Clan Weapons being less heavily nerfed.

One step at a time.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 March 2015 - 05:56 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

For anything 55t+ I don't mind and quite frankly I think it is a great thing. It should help bring IS:Clan ratio closer.
For anything under 50t it will be a death blow. Anything Clans have in this weight gap is terrible, PGI clearly has no intention of doing anything about it (yestedays Clan quirks anyone?) and they will suck even more.

It might help bring TWs/SCRs in line and that is a good thing. On the other hand it will hurt the already hurting guys tremendously. Can you guess huw much hurt can Adder or Nova take? Place your bets!

[Gyrok]

Artgathan, on 16 March 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Are people not aware that Light Fusion Engines are 75% of the weight of a STD engine versus on the 50% of the XL? Using a 250 LFE instead of a STD frees 3 tons (versus the XL's 6) and using a 300 LFE frees 5 tons (versus the XL's 9.5). That's not exactly enough to put them on par with Clan XL engines.

An Orion with an LFE 375, endo and max armor will only have ~20 tons free compared to the Timberwolf's ~27 tons (which comes with 5 extra DHS already installed), while each have equal critical slots open (though the T-Wolf gets the advantage of lighter + smaller clan equipment).

So, what? It is the option for IS mechs that makes the most sense. You now have *3* options, while clans have zero.

So, you can go ultra tanky with less weapons/speed...STD. You can go kinda tanky, more weapons/speed...LFE. You can go "paper people" with LOTS of weapons/speed...XL engine.

You guys get options, while we get screwed, basically...cry more about your uber quirked mechs...?

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

I wouldn't. Because the "nerf" doesn't realistically make that huge an impact on combat effectiveness in most cases. Once you lose a side, unless you are sword and board, you are usually a dead man walking. It is well worth being less effective in this scenario if you can be more effective a contributor earlier in the match, which Endo tonnage would allow in many cases.

Front loading your mech and your teams damage potential is ALWAYS more desirable than chasing the survivability Unicorn. The pew pew CN9 running around the match with no STs generally contributes far less than people want to believe. Ditto the half missing KitFox, Nova, etc.

And by laying these sensible "nerfs" which are still better than IS XLs by a long ways, it allows more global balancing to finally be looked at, which could potentially lead to things like some of the Clan Weapons being less heavily nerfed.

One step at a time.

I know you are crusading for the Summoner and others, however, let us be realistic, I doubt that would happen, this will be a blanket nerf, and the consolation prize is that *ALL* clan mechs will have reduced effectiveness when their effectiveness is already reduced. I mean, WTF? There are *MANY* times that I have lost half a mech and still contributed a good amount to a drop. If you make it a speed loss issue, now we are talking about arbitrary balancing BS in a FPS where loss of weapons and cored internals is already bad enough.

Not to mention that IS STD engines are powering a large portion of your mechs already...are we going to implement engine crits on those where the effects are the same? That is a real, valid, concern. IS mechs can lose a ST and *NOTHING* happens...at all.

So many point to the fragile extreme, then ignore mechs like the 5SS with the STD engines and massive quirks that are already straight upgrades to clan mechs. They have more survival, more DPS, and sure, short range, but still, the range of a HBR with MPLs is the same with range 5 on both mechs.

Think about that...*OUTRIGHT SUPERIOR DPS WITH A STD ENGINE AND EQUAL RANGE*. Clans are OP please nerf...right?

Let me say this, *if* this happens, you will outright lose a LARGE swath of your player base, probably permanently. CWDG honestly has close to 100 people (~50% of the clan) considering asking for a full refund on wave 3 pre-orders and most of those are considering leaving permanently if they ask for the refund. They will just move on to another game, and play a shooter where people have half a clue how to balance a game. I can imagine that this phenomenon is not limited to my unit alone.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 March 2015 - 06:10 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

Not to mention that IS STD engines are powering a large portion of your mechs already...are we going to implement engine crits on those where the effects are the same? That is a real, valid, concern. IS mechs can lose a ST and *NOTHING* happens...at all.

Since IS STD engines don't take up any space in the ST...why would losing an ST affect them? Mind you, IMO; it should impact your mobility ads your gyro is under serious load imbalance now, but why again would using an STD engine accrue extra penalties, when to use them already means the average IS Mech is going 10-25% slower (save Lights) than their Clan Counterparts, with less tonnage for weapons and cooling to boot?

Care to show me which IS Assault Mech can survivably pack 50 tons of guns?

You see, I know you are very Clan biased, but my IS Medium with a STD? Is 20-30 kph slower than your StormCrow, and usually 10-20 slower than the average Clan Heavy. With less firepower. And yes, my IS Mech can then lose a ST "with no penalty"...except of course usually losing even more of it's significantly lower firepower.

And of course, if I use an XL to try to approximate the speed/firepower of Clan MEchs, and I lose that ST? Pretty sure dead mech is a considerably harsher penalty than what Russ is saying.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 March 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Care to show me which IS Assault Mech can survivably pack 50 tons of guns?

Uoh no - you didn't ask that. Please no!
I have seen this discussion a couple of times in the past - maybe he is up to post a Orion next that has 50t "weapon capacity"

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 March 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Since IS STD engines don't take up any space in the ST...why would losing an ST affect them? Mind you, IMO; it should impact your mobility ads your gyro is under serious load imbalance now, but why again would using an STD engine accrue extra penalties, when to use them already means the average IS Mech is going 10-25% slower (save Lights) than their Clan Counterparts, with less tonnage for weapons and cooling to boot?

Care to show me which IS Assault Mech can survivably pack 50 tons of guns?

Sure...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c81b0e754de11b4

52 tons, to be exact...with stock engine and endo...nothing else....

I have been telling people all along, KGC is an upgrade to the DW, but nobody listens.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c311df619f76743

There is proof, and a 62 point alpha in a brawler that does all PP damage.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 March 2015 - 06:15 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Karl Streiger, on 17 March 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

Uoh no - you didn't ask that. Please no!
I have seen this discussion a couple of times in the past - maybe he is up to post a Orion next that has 50t "weapon capacity"

Good. Those builds are always so ludicrous that it makes the point even more.

I'd just like to see which amazeballs std Engine Orion build gives it superiority to the Timber Wolf..... or any Clan Heavy not named Summoner.

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

Sure...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c81b0e754de11b4

52 tons, to be exact...with stock engine and endo...nothing else....

I have been telling people all along, KGC is an upgrade to the DW, but nobody listens.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c311df619f76743

There is proof.

congrats. Now load it out to match the firepower of the DWF.

Oh wait..those ACs, Gauss and PPCs are all a skosh heavier. You also seem to be about 5 double slot DHS light compared to the stock DWF. And of course, that endo just ate up 14 crits.........

And I'm sure the 4-500 meter realistic engagement range on a 54 kph mech vs the 1000 plus range on most DWF builds is a MASSIVE upgrade.

But congrats on building a situational brawler that is still inferior to the DWF. (aside from movement archetype, which is head scratching, but a slightly different topic)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 March 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

I have been telling people all along, KGC is an upgrade to the DW, but nobody listens.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c311df619f76743

There is proof, and a 62 point alpha in a brawler that does all PP damage.

and you want to improve it with LFE?
You should really be careful what you wish for canine baby

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 March 2015 - 06:18 AM.