437 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Quote

Because random engine deaths make for such good gameplay, right?

Crit happens. As it is, those randomly and harmlessly absorb critical hits left and right.

[darkchylde]

This game needed a proper crit system for some time now and as long as the penalties are similar to TT it should be fine.

Also game needs a proper heat system.

Edited by darkchylde, 17 March 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

That means that it should affect all mechs whenever they suffer a crit to any engine slot, regardless of whether it is an IS or clan mech, or whether hit in a ST or CT. All it does is make clan lights even less useful, without affecting Spiders, Commandos, or Ravens at all.

This, basically. Engine damage is meaningless as it stands now, as is gyro or actuator crits. I'm all for modeling engine damage- but let's be fair and apply it to all engines.

[Revis Volek]

Zoid, on 16 March 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Dual Gauss Dire Wolves will be hurt by this. Focus a ST and kill the Gauss Rifle (which explodes very easily) and now they're moving ridiculously slow.

With the current broken mechanics if you have gauss in your ST you will die from CT dmg transfer because they broke CASE. I am not sure if they fixed it with this patch but as of last night it was still an issue.

But you in other words you wont have to worry about the reduction because you will be dead more then likely.

[Satan n stuff]

Burktross, on 17 March 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Through armor crits I understand, but if you have no armor, proper crits should be implemented.

No, they really shouldn't. The last thing we need is more people playing like a single scratch will kill them, which in this case it very well might.

[Kain Demos]

DarthRevis, on 17 March 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

With the current broken mechanics if you have gauss in your ST you will die from CT dmg transfer because they broke CASE. I am not sure if they fixed it with this patch but as of last night it was still an issue.

But you in other words you wont have to worry about the reduction because you will be dead more then likely.

The STs are so explodey on DWs I stopped putting the gauss rifles on them ages ago anyway. You can actually shoot them uphill and downhill way better too.

[Satan n stuff]

Kain Thul, on 17 March 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

The STs are so explodey on DWs I stopped putting the gauss rifles on them ages ago anyway. You can actually shoot them uphill and downhill way better too.

If you're only using two why didn't you put them in the arms in the first place?

[Burktross]

Satan n stuff, on 17 March 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

No, they really shouldn't. The last thing we need is more people playing like a single scratch will kill them, which in this case it very well might.

People without armor already do that.

[Satan n stuff]

Burktross, on 17 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

People without armor already do that.

And when you risk dying to the hit that takes out the last few points of torso armor, you're gonna start playing like that all the time.
I am getting tired of this discussion, you've yet to give me a good reason to implement engine crits and I've given you plenty of good reasons not to, so I'm out, see you on the battlefield.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 17 March 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Satan n stuff, on 17 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you're only using two why didn't you put them in the arms in the first place?

To try and shield them a bit. Whales didn't have energy in the ST's till the S came out, and until its out for C-bills they aren't that common. So its a matter of tanking, if you lose an arm you don't instantly lose half of your firepower.

[Burktross]

Satan n stuff, on 17 March 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

And when you risk dying to the hit that takes out the last few points of torso armor, you're gonna start playing like that all the time.
I am getting tired of this discussion, you've yet to give me a good reason to implement engine crits and I've given you plenty of good reasons not to, so I'm out, see you on the battlefield.

You seem particularly irritable over a huge component of TT... lose a lot of lights to leg actuators?

[Kain Demos]

Satan n stuff, on 17 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you're only using two why didn't you put them in the arms in the first place?

When I was new and leveling stuff I was not really into buying more pods. It did not take me long though to learn that you will never, ever, ever lose an arm before a ST in a Dire Wolf and to keep Gauss Rifles out of the STs at all costs.

[Astrifer]

if they nerf clans, will definitely be asking for refund on wave 3

Edited by Astrifer, 17 March 2015 - 02:41 PM.

[Dymlos2003]

Astrifer, on 17 March 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

if they nerf clans, will definitely be asking for refund on wave 3

I welcome the speed reduction, reminds me of MW2.

[Nightshade24]

Dymlos2003, on 17 March 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

I welcome the speed reduction, reminds me of MW2.

It isn't the Engine changes by itself that is the problem.

it is the lack of compensation for the Engines AND in general lack of love for clan mechs that's the problem...

[Andi Nagasia]

Nightshade24, on 17 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

It isn't the Engine changes by itself that is the problem.

it is the lack of compensation for the Engines AND in general lack of love for clan mechs that's the problem...

was listening to the NGNG guys they said Nova and Summoner didnt need much of a buff,
both preform very well and will beat their IS counter parts 9 times out of 10.. um What?

apparently Clans are still over powered for Comp teams,
but NGNG and PGI has to realize most people arnt Comp teams,
most people are running what they like to have fun, and this is hitting us hard,

as we are the ones hit hardest by it, Meta players will always play Meta, i play for fun,
and when you tell me my Nova has to Run 12Energy weapons or im playing my Nova wrong?
who is this game for, the Meta Players or for those who love BT and want to have Fun?

[Eider]

They had a 90% win rate when the holy trinity came out against is.. and you complain about love? wow

[Red1769]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 March 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

was listening to the NGNG guys they said Nova and Summoner didnt need much of a buff,
both preform very well and will beat their IS counter parts 9 times out of 10.. um What?

apparently Clans are still over powered for Comp teams,
but NGNG and PGI has to realize most people arnt Comp teams,
most people are running what they like to have fun, and this is hitting us hard,

as we are the ones hit hardest by it, Meta players will always play Meta, i play for fun,
and when you tell me my Nova has to Run 12Energy weapons or im playing my Nova wrong?
who is this game for, the Meta Players or for those who love BT and want to have Fun?

Wait what? The Nope-Va? The Summoner I can sorta see it...some minor love and it'll be pretty solid, especially if given jump jet quirks. But the Nope-Va? It's too wide, too easily cored, too easily neutered, and doesn't have the heat efficiency/tonnage to use its pretty decent (if a bit short ranged) firepower in a pitched firefight. I don't see it beating a Centurian regularly...a Hunchback, depending on the varient, but not a Cent.....

That said, I'm not against the speed nerf for losing a side ST...but I am concerned how it would effect the bad/mediocre Clan mechs...their quirks would need to be a lot better to even be considered over the SC and TW. I'm also worried about the Dire Whale due to its already pretty severe lack of agility...

Eider, on 17 March 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

They had a 90% win rate when the holy trinity came out against is.. and you complain about love? wow

And how many blanket nerfs against the Clans and buffs to IS mechs have been made since then? Last official word was 64% shortly after the first quirkening, when it wasn't settled in yet and the "meta" mechs got settled. And that was because of an Elo difference in favor of the Clans, although that difference can be arguable. Sorry, but you can't look at the first win ratio now, especially with so many changes having happened since.

A more current and up to date test is needed, though perhaps after some decent Clan quirks on the underused mechs are done. And none of this pathetic 4% cooldown on the Adder Prime. (should have gotten a 15% total (7.5% on each arm) heat gen. decrease for the ERPPCs or just energy weapon heat gen. in general IMO)

[MischiefSC]

Let me make a couple of proposals -

1. Make Clan Mechs work like IS mechs. Make weapons same weight and crit space as their IS counter-parts but with longer range and more damage in return for higher heat and longer cooldown. Let them change ES,FF and engines but those components (and all other Clan components) have identical performance to their IS counter-parts. This means you put in an XL in a Clan mech it dies when the ST gets blown out, like an IS mech. This makes them 'balanced' just difference in how weapons are balanced.

2. Let Clan mechs swap out XL for STD engine OF THE SAME TONNAGE, but keep all other perks - save that when your ST gets blown out with an XL you die, just like an IS mech. You just have a tic box for 'STD' and 'XL'. ES, FF, they all get the 1/2 size perk as do Clan weapons and equipment but you die when your ST gets blown out however you can trade your XL for a same tonnage STD engine. That means your TW can either have his XL375 but dies when his ST is blown out and keep his near 90 speed + remarkable maneuverability, or he can mount a STD 305, move 65/72 and maneuver like an Orion but not have any penalty for ST loss, like an IS mech.

Because lets make this absolutely crystal clear - there is no player with IS mechs who wouldn't be OVERJOYED to only take a heat/speed hit when a ST is lost with an XL engine. I'd never run a STD again. It would be insanely stupid to do so, like running STD heatsinks. There is no way 1/2 the weight of my engine worth of additional tonnage or a *massive* buff in speed and maneuverability doesn't offset surviving a ST hit.

Right now though I can't help but laugh at the people complaining about this. You only take a speed/heat penalty when your ST is lost instead of dying while still getting to keep the massive tonnage perks (which stack with the lighter weapons perks) that Clan mechs get.

This is the difference between the proposed Clan ST loss penalties and IS penalties for ST loss -

[Nightshade24]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 March 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

was listening to the NGNG guys they said Nova and Summoner didnt need much of a buff,
both preform very well and will beat their IS counter parts 9 times out of 10.. um What?

apparently Clans are still over powered for Comp teams,
but NGNG and PGI has to realize most people arnt Comp teams,
most people are running what they like to have fun, and this is hitting us hard,

as we are the ones hit hardest by it, Meta players will always play Meta, i play for fun,
and when you tell me my Nova has to Run 12Energy weapons or im playing my Nova wrong?
who is this game for, the Meta Players or for those who love BT and want to have Fun?

Well the 12 er medium laser nova suffers to go toe to toe with a Hunchback 4P both with around equal player levels (based on KDR in both mechs, Win rate, etc... Yes this was tested in custom match) and we alternated mechs.

I won all 5 games in the Hunchback 4P and lost all 5 games in the Nova Prime.

Another test conducted with the 12 ER Small laser nova as well with the same 9 medium laser hunchback.

again I won five in hunchback but I managed to kill my opponent once in the nova.


Other counterparts? Nova S is no where near the same level as the Arrow... which has superior machine gun and energy firepower and range over the 6 ER medium laser Nova + 4 mg OR the 4 MG 12 ER small laser builds.

The last Nova ( has a UAC 5, Large pulse, and a few small lasers...

Closest mech to compare is the Blackjack, Shadowhawk, and Cicada. all which out do the nova in this roll too but in a more specific way... Nova B here has some unique advantages but not that much. it's kinda like pre quirk IS...

The Awesome was an "okay" LRM boat, but no where the same effectiveness as the stalker and battlemaster LRM boats.




Summoner?

Well that mech is out done by the Thunderbolt by far...
Thunderbolter

This is just a 'replica' and it's nearly the same speed, extremely heat effecient, has longer range, better DPS, and more ammo (Keep in mind... one of the main users of the summoner keep their prime stock or resembling the stock.. so the fact that the thunderbolt obliterates the "Stock prime" should be able to obliterate anything...

TDR-5S

Rushed but this is superior to most Summoner 'Meta' (I use meta loosely, by that in this context I mean 2 things. 1) the NORMAL definition of meta. 2) the meta for THIS mech in specific.)


to be honest... there are many other mechs out there that can substitute the summoner...

The thing is it isn't just comp verse casual player opinions clashing here but also data is ****ed up to say the least...

"Oh, clans win more in CW. must be because OP clans"

My gatherings have shown that...

1) clans rarely ever win by kills. Often it is highly co ordinative charged rushes to the base. which is funny

it takes on average 2 to 3 waves of Clan mechs to do that in stormcrows or ice ferrets.
For the inner sphere they can do it in 1 wiht a few firestarters and spiders.

Source: my own perspective in game.
Asked the top dogs of CW... most comp teams


2) population differences. A lot of people play clan... for many reasons.

For me? I love ghost bear and the clan tech. Not because clan tech is OP but it's more interesting. I like the lower tonnage of missiles and the range of the LBX's.

I like clan mechs, but because they are omni or "OP" or "UP", but for the mech ITSELF.

The kodiak, behemoth, shadowcat, couldron born, mad dog, cougar, adder... etc... it's for the mech, and not becuase it's OP or NOt. (even though in the form I got them in they were far from good... MW4 for eg)

A lot of people got into the series due to Mechwarrior 2 which centers you on the clans...

Everyone has there faovurite clan mechs or IIC's... not many from the MW series had to much thought on IS mechs...



There is many more things I can say...

But I find PGI's perspective and stuff a bit harsh...

Unless they are planning to make IS mechs have 100% reduced speed when lossing 1 leg and remove most IS quirks I do not see how any of this is just...