46 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Ultimatum X, on 20 March 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

Well comparatively isn't it short vs. Griffin & Shadowhawk?

I was in my enforcer last night and the nova on my team seemed about the same height as me.

Or do you mean its supposed to be even shorter?

It is indeed shorter than the Shawk (a 55ton) but it is also nearly twice as wide.

Comparing it to Cent, and Shawk (55t)... it isn't that bad for a 50 ton meh when compared to those two, but when you put it next to the hunchback... it does look like "wtf?" The shoulders are larger in surface area than the hunch on the hunchback.

-------------------------
You guys can forget rescaling, they won't do that because it is cost prohibitive. (There is a lot more that goes into it than just some artwork)

What it will probably get is Hunchback style structure buffs.

[Lily from animove]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

What it will probably get is Hunchback style structure buffs.

I'm fine with that, because this is what we can realistically expect to happen. I just hope PGI does not grab deep into the box of heatquirks, because that may be a a fail, sure 12E runs hot, but every mech with 12 energyweapons should run hot. And heat is quite manageable on a Nova.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

It is indeed shorter than the Shawk (a 55ton) but it is also nearly twice as wide.

Comparing it to Cent, and Shawk (55t)... it isn't that bad for a 50 ton meh when compared to those two, but when you put it next to the hunchback... it does look like "wtf?" The shoulders are larger in surface area than the hunch on the hunchback.

-------------------------
You guys can forget rescaling, they won't do that because it is cost prohibitive. (There is a lot more that goes into it than just some artwork)

What it will probably get is Hunchback style structure buffs.

True. The drawback to Armor/IS buffs on the Nova? What do you buff? It's the only mech model where you can pretty much pick your hitbox from any angle. Unless they buff EVERYTHING, the good players will simply start shooting the hitbox that hasn't been buffed.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

True. The drawback to Armor/IS buffs on the Nova? What do you buff? It's the only mech model where you can pretty much pick your hitbox from any angle. Unless they buff EVERYTHING, the good players will simply start shooting the hitbox that hasn't been buffed.

It will likely need a little bit everywhere (except the legs, those seems to be fine)
It will need cent buffs for the arms, 2/3s hunch buffs for the torsos, and 1/2 dragon/awesome buffs for the CT. (Although in all the months driving it, CT wasn't usually the first thing to go... it was those Side torsos)


I'm not worried about the cockpit.. I've been taking it into Community Warfare for a couple of months now, it has never been headshot. (And I've gone up against SJR peeps with it, they didn't cockpit it either)

[Lily from animove]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

True. The drawback to Armor/IS buffs on the Nova? What do you buff? It's the only mech model where you can pretty much pick your hitbox from any angle. Unless they buff EVERYTHING, the good players will simply start shooting the hitbox that hasn't been buffed.

thats why I say 20 for each section except legs, sounds much, but is needed because of exactly what you say. 20 because compare what other mechs have gotten.

dragon got more hp buff, yet is the same size and by nature 60t instead of 50t. So it naturally already had more HP before buffs. And also looking at most other mechs and what kind of hitboxes have gotten buffs being way smaller, those+20 are not even choosen too high.

This with mobility buffs is enough to compensate the Novas issues.

what still needs buffs is the ballistic loadouts because they just suck by low weapon tonnage the Nova has. The only I can imagine to help here is making those 4! DHS optional. They hurt tonnage and the 10internal DHS are enough if combination of a bigger Ac to support cooling for some additional lasers.

Being able to place 2 more tons of ammo with decent AC size and backup lasers is making Ballistcis a valid choice.
But 6.5 tons of fixed equipment with 4 being heatsinks in a non ES/FF clanner is extremely hurting anything else than Energy laodouts.

Quirk this, and change those fixed DHS (at leats for 2) and suddenly the nova is becoming a mech of choice. you could even use a gauss with some ammo and bakcuplasers on it then. Not a top tier mech. But not every mech needs to be top tier. Every mech should have a valid place of existence at least.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 March 2015 - 05:50 AM.

[dubplate]

Lily from animove, on 20 March 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

I'm fine with that, because this is what we can realistically expect to happen. I just hope PGI does not grab deep into the box of heatquirks, because that may be a a fail, sure 12E runs hot, but every mech with 12 energyweapons should run hot. And heat is quite manageable on a Nova.

I finally played with my Nova for the first time this week. I run 10 medium lasers and it is really hot but it can also push out 105dmg in 3 bursts (3 times an arm firing) which really is a lot for a 55ton mech, and most of the time you just have to wait for your laser to recycle rather than heat dissipate for the 3rd shot. It really feels like the glass cannon. Everyone that says it needs to be shorter, it could be shorter as long as they don't make the arms any lower. I find that's one the biggest liabilities so far is hitting the terrain and wasting 33% of my heat. I'd be curious to see how mobility buffs help it, since it has jump jets it seems like it should be made more mobile than the stormcrow (though I think the stormcrow's mobility/agility needs a bit of a nerf too).

[Lily from animove]

dubplate, on 20 March 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

I finally played with my Nova for the first time this week. I run 10 medium lasers and it is really hot but it can also push out 105dmg in 3 bursts (3 times an arm firing) which really is a lot for a 55ton mech, and most of the time you just have to wait for your laser to recycle rather than heat dissipate for the 3rd shot. It really feels like the glass cannon. Everyone that says it needs to be shorter, it could be shorter as long as they don't make the arms any lower. I find that's one the biggest liabilities so far is hitting the terrain and wasting 33% of my heat. I'd be curious to see how mobility buffs help it, since it has jump jets it seems like it should be made more mobile than the stormcrow (though I think the stormcrow's mobility/agility needs a bit of a nerf too).

well the SCR has such a bigger engine that the mobility of it is superior. Sure JJ's grant some mobility, but this is vertical mobility. And JJ's ahve the speed of your mech, trying to jump up a hll form standing is like trying to make a whale fly if you don't already have some decent kph on the tachometer. Unfortunately givign the Nova torso twist speed or angle will not help, because the hitbox distribution makes the CT always, form any angle hitable quite easily. So twisting is only an option versus medicore opponents that either not know the hitbox of the nova or have wonky aim.
Mobility buffs like acceleration, decelleration would help to apear and disappear faster on hill and cornerpopping maneuvers. It will still make you an easier targe than a SCR because its engine and its weird shaped and slim hitboxes togther are close to perfection in terms of these behavior.


If nerfing anything on the SCR, probably torso twist speed would be a fair nerf, because the strangelky shaped SCR makes staying on a location nearly impossible even if you have decent aim.Torso twist speed anyways should depend on a mechs size, not its engine. SCR invensts tonnage in the engine and so it should not enirely lose what this investment brings: speed.
They could also slightly nerf acceleration decelleration. like 5%. This way SCR gets a bit mobility removed, yet keeps the speed advantage it invested its engine into.
This will also slightly reduce survivability of the SCR, because twisting away damage and dodging it will be reduced, yet should still be possible quite well. Currently the SCR can eat and dodge so many damage, it feels like an assault. and that is a bit over the top. Especially when you sswitch from Nova to SCR you get this small feelign you wanna cry: I'M INVINCIBLE. Probably also because crow can twist 130 degree and Nova only 100. Which is probably chosen that low because of the TT Nova not having a torso..
And 2 mechs 5tons apart should definately not feel as worlds apart as they currently do. Especially given that the SCR can do anything the Nova can up to 9E except JJ's.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 March 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[Telmasa]

I agree with Bishop, the Nova isn't supposed to be "as small as a hunchback" - it's a squat jump-jetting skirmisher. I actually love my Nova the way it is, looks and all. I think you guys all just overestimate the roles you can play with a 50 ton medium mech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Nova is the only mech of its kind when you look at the medium class. The Cicada and incoming SCat are the only mechs that come close to being a similar profile but each one has significant advantages over this one thanks to their much slimmer profiles (torso + arms). It needs to be rescaled or buffed everywhere (including its legs) as far as protection goes.

As for removing the discs like Mister D suggests, I get the feeling this might cause clipping issues given how low they hang and how close they are to the legs. That separation it currently has isn't much, but it is something one must keep in mind on a mech like this not to mention it doesn't help a whole lot in regards to its profile.

[Gamuray]

Quote

As for removing the discs like Mister D suggests, I get the feeling this might cause clipping issues given how low they hang and how close they are to the legs. That separation it currently has isn't much, but it is something one must keep in mind on a mech like this not to mention it doesn't help a whole lot in regards to its profile. -WM Quicksilver

Well, I can tell you that the arms already clip. And removing the discs from both the hips AND shoulders would essentially amount to no different in relative distance between lower arms and upper legs.

Edited by Gamuray, 20 March 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[Soy]

You people are saying the Crow has advantages cuz scrubs crutch its broken hitbox.

I think the JJs give the Nova advantage; but don't include that or anything...

Edited by Soy, 20 March 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Mister D, on 20 March 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:

I just wanted to show you guys this, because I think a simple edit of the game model would do alot for the Nova, with the least amount of work required by the art team.

Just simply removing or compressing the big discs on the shoulder and hips gives it a much more slender profile without making the model look hacked up.

Then just re-keyframing the animations, which is also a pretty simple thing to do because its only the legs that would need it.

And Viola.

We all know that the Nova needs a complete rescale, but that will never happen, so maybe this could be a possibility instead?

I can see the value in reducing its hitboxes.

With my poor MS Paint-Fu, I came up with a bit more savings, that I'd explore:

[Andi Nagasia]

Telmasa, on 20 March 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

I agree with Bishop, the Nova isn't supposed to be "as small as a hunchback" - it's a squat jump-jetting skirmisher. I actually love my Nova the way it is, looks and all. I think you guys all just overestimate the roles you can play with a 50 ton medium mech.

Love my Nova too, but it still needs Armor/Structure/Mobility Quirks,

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

Love my Nova too, but it still needs Armor/Structure/Mobility Quirks,

And Endo (some of my builds can use it, anyhow)

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

True. The drawback to Armor/IS buffs on the Nova? What do you buff? It's the only mech model where you can pretty much pick your hitbox from any angle. Unless they buff EVERYTHING, the good players will simply start shooting the hitbox that hasn't been buffed.

I think it might, indeed, almost need to have everything buffed.

Arms, STs, CT for sure.

Could maybe leave legs out, but honestly if they got buffed too I don't think that would be a problem.


I'd like to see this first, perhaps the +Accel / Deccel bonuses for some more responsiveness on the field.


After that, IMO, it would be what it is supposed to be - and as for running "hot", well it can have as much firepower as many energy focused IS heavies. I think running hot at that point is fine.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 20 March 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

I think it might, indeed, almost need to have everything buffed.

Arms, STs, CT for sure.

Could maybe leave legs out, but honestly if they got buffed too I don't think that would be a problem.


I'd like to see this first, perhaps the +Accel / Deccel bonuses for some more responsiveness on the field.


After that, IMO, it would be what it is supposed to be - and as for running "hot", well it can have as much firepower as many energy focused IS heavies. I think running hot at that point is fine.

I would definitely like it to feel more like an IS Medium in responsiveness. I don't mind the hot with some mechs like the Prime Arms, but do feel some other arms like maybe the S, with more limited hardpoints, could benefit from some cooling quirks. Especially since Missiles are not really an option and the ballistics are overall too heavy.

Still wish in some cases they would simply extend the GH window, as I think that would do more to mitigate lazor abuse builds (IS and Clan) than most things. But tis a different topic.

Big thing is, I would kill to have the Stock NVA-S be as effective as it was in June..... and be delighted if it could be a little tougher and more agile to boot. Problem is balancing it so that it doesn't get overstacked with pod juggling. *sigh*

I bet if they were to bring you, me and Koniving in together, we could knock out totally workable and useful quirks for this wave of Clan MEchs in a day.

[Aethon]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

I bet if they were to bring you, me and Koniving in together, we could knock out totally workable and useful quirks for this wave of Clan MEchs in a day.

Unfortunately, these are the people who never even called the MWLL guys back when several of them applied for positions in PGI's team; these were guys with years of experience making mechs in CryEngine. These devs not very good at using the resources at their disposal.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aethon, on 20 March 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Unfortunately, these are the people who never even called the MWLL guys back when several of them applied for positions in PGI's team; these were guys with years of experience making mechs in CryEngine. These devs not very good at using the resources at their disposal.

True, but there is also a problem with bringing guys who have done it in, as often times the way they want to do things is not able to gel with how the company does (not gonna touch on which would be "better" as BOTH games had their share of flaws, and strong points).

Many employers prefer to bring in the less experienced, not for financial reasons, but because they get to train them in "their way" from the get go, instead of having to try to "retrain" them.

So barring PGI being willing to essentially blow it all the way up, and start over, I can see why that might not have been as perfect a solution as it appears on the surface.

With the thing I was touching on, it would simply be using a more objective approach to what is already available, since it seems like some of the guys don't play the game enough to understand what the weaknesses and flaws are, lol)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[Aethon]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

True, but there is also a problem with bringing guys who have done it in, as often times the way they want to do things is not able to gel with how the company does (not gonna touch on which would be "better" as BOTH games had their share of flaws, and strong points).

Many employers prefer to bring in the less experienced, not for financial reasons, but because they get to train them in "their way" from the get go, instead of having to try to "retrain" them.

So barring PGI being willing to essentially blow it all the way up, and start over, I can see why that might not have been as perfect a solution as it appears on the surface.

With the thing I was touching on, it would simply be using a more objective approach to what is already available, since it seems like some of the guys don't play the game enough to understand what the weaknesses and flaws are, lol)

The thing is, PGI had no experience in CryEngine. When one of the guys the turned down ended up working for CryTek, along with a few others, one was actually assigned to PGI to help them figure out how to CryEngine. Kind of amusing, actually.

So, I understand where you are coming from, but PGI is not the master of game design that has any need (or even ability) to 'bring them up right', or anything like that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aethon, on 20 March 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

The thing is, PGI had no experience in CryEngine. When one of the guys the turned down ended up working for CryTek, along with a few others, one was actually assigned to PGI to help them figure out how to CryEngine. Kind of amusing, actually.

So, I understand where you are coming from, but PGI is not the master of game design that has any need (or even ability) to 'bring them up right', or anything like that.

I understand what you are saying, but unless those guys were hired from the beginning, it is hard to make such a sea change. Never claimed PGI was any type of masters with Cryengine, simply that at least by 2013, their course was already pretty solidly set. If they had a chance to hire them from the get go, well, IDK.