139 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

Karl Streiger, on 23 March 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

Adamski, on 23 March 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

I don't know why people compare the Quirked LLAS to the C-ERMLAS, when a group of 3 is much closer to a pair of C-LPLAS

25% range quirk & 10% range module brings LLAS to 600m, the same optimal as C-LPLAS
3x LLAS is 27 dmg for 21 heat, 2x C-LPLAS is 26 dmg for 20 heat
3x LLAS is 15 tons, 2x C-LPLAS is 12 tons

just underline that IS LL is the worst choice you can do.

speaking of range quirks + range module - to make LLAS 600m - how should be IS LL the worst choice? Come on, dumpster this phrase. A Stk 4N with its heat gen quirks and cd quirks is decent enough to reveal the problem of this comparision in itself.

Large Laser Heat Generation-20% Energy Weapon Heat Generation-10%

So we have?
3x LLAS is 27 dmg for 14,7 heat, 2x C-LPLAS is 26 dmg for 20 heat
3x LLAS is 15 tons, 2x C-LPLAS is 12 tons

Or use a WVR 6k with 37.5% Heatgen Quirk for said LLs - sure this 55t Mech is not that fast compared to a 55t SCR neither does it have the tank qualitys all say a SCR have, but in a standoff range duell what happens rather often in CW you can skip the speed. Even in a push situation the constant DPS before shut down helps the IS.

And for the tonnage aspect. CD is the reduction. For sure you need more time to shoot the enemy, but if you can do so it is superior and compensate more weight. 15 tones for 27damage compared 16damage with 12t is better with 30%+ cd since DPS per Tonnage is higher on a Mech like the Stalker 4N Mechs.

The problem with this kind of comparision falls with individual quirks of each Mech and the situation you put them in. Saying IS LL are "worst choice you can do" is just a statment that stays not true.

[Averen]

Kuritaclan, on 24 March 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

speaking of range quirks + range module - to make LLAS 600m - how should be IS LL the worst choice? Come on, dumpster this phrase. A Stk 4N with its heat gen quirks and cd quirks is decent enough to reveal the problem of this comparision in itself.

Large Laser Heat Generation-20% Energy Weapon Heat Generation-10%

So we have?
3x LLAS is 27 dmg for 14,7 heat, 2x C-LPLAS is 26 dmg for 20 heat
3x LLAS is 15 tons, 2x C-LPLAS is 12 tons

4N has 20% heat reduction combined, so it's 16,8 heat. And you're forgetting the XLs adding a tonnage advantage as well as generally more free slots+smaller DHS. Mind how it looks for IS mechs without or only limited energy quirks.

The 4N Stalker is actually a good comparision. I'd say it's one of the strongest, maybe the strongest IS-mech. More advantage in CW modes tho. Still, it has some glaring weaknesses, the long factime of a dual-salvo, the sluggish- and slowness of a stalker, as well as a very limited torso-twist.

And there lies the issue with mechs like cats and crows, they don't have any downside in their class. A cat is an insanely fast heavy, which adds to the already notable armor and survivability of a 75-ton mech. Their weaponry is extremly powerful, and relatively far ranging at the same time. The only downside would be heat, but a cat can easily carry 24DHS, partially negating that issue. And otherwise it can get easily in and out of cover, due to it's speed. Every tiny 'disadvantage' is completely overshadowed by another strong side.
Looking at the premium TBR-D STs or the daishis new head, it's kinda obvious PGI just wants to keep them a little bit on the P2W-side, even at this point.

I don't even have that thing mastered and it feels like easy mode. Even stalkers at least require methodical play. Atm I'm rather using orions, because there is actually some complexity and challenge in getting good games with those mechs.

Edited by Averen, 24 March 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

Averen, on 24 March 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

4N has 20% heat reduction combined, so it's 16,8 heat. And you're forgetting the XLs adding a tonnage advantage as well as generally more free slots+smaller DHS. Mind how it looks for IS mechs without or only limited energy quirks.

SO a 5th of the clan weapon with 16.8 Heat is still less than what a double LPL produce.

No I do not forget about ClanXL - XL is related to bigger engines and counter weighted this part. Clan mechs have the higher agility and velocity with the xl engine, but they suffer therfore the loadout tonnage since they have fixed engines. If you have had free engine choice on clan mechs, than i would concider "the XL" tonnagewise as an advantage. But nop a 375XL Engine weight so much that it is more a burden than a help for a 75t mech. Also note that the XL does not help at all, the asymetrical built in the Hellpbringer which is the only one who have kinda high E-Slots will suffer beside of the Head E Slot nearly his full combat power, if the ECM Sidetorso is gone. So you are like every other running stick in this game. Only those Mechs with symetrical Loadout does have a benefit from Clan XL - but therefore dont have a shield side for twisting. And yes the Hellbring has the other side as Shield and if it is gone you potentialy have your full firepower, but since you get a heat increase a laser loadout on the ecm side is so damn hot that you don't have much dps left. On a Asymetrical build you have the heat increase also but you will lost some weapons+Heat sinks, so in the end you be hurt but it is okayish to move on with the weapons and have a decent heat managment for next moments.

Averen, on 24 March 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

The 4N Stalker is actually a good comparision. I'd say it's one of the strongest, maybe the strongest IS-mech. More advantage in CW modes tho. Still, it has some glaring weaknesses, the long factime of a dual-salvo, the sluggish- and slowness of a stalker, as well as a very limited torso-twist.

The high face time is equal to the high factime a clan mech has. so there is no difference in it. Yes stalkers tends to be sluggish and slow, but when you get in a situation that this point matters your team did something wrong. So torso twisting etc. is just no deal for the comparission in cw. And i reffer in this part only to cw! For the normal queue the stalker is still not that great.

Averen, on 24 March 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

And there lies the issue with mechs like cats and crows, they don't have any downside in their class. A cat is an insanely fast heavy, which adds to the already notable armor and survivability of a 75-ton mech. Their weaponry is extremly powerful, and relatively far ranging at the same time. The only downside would be heat, but a cat can easily carry 24DHS, partially negating that issue. And otherwise it can get easily in and out of cover, due to it's speed. Every tiny 'disadvantage' is completely overshadowed by another strong side.
Looking at the premium TBR-D STs or the daishis new head, it's kinda obvious PGI just wants to keep them a little bit on the P2W-side, even at this point.

Well it is a pitty that everybody pulls up the timber and try to make everything else equal to this mech, when PGI / Russ stated, that it is the crown of mechs and everything is a step behind. So no there will be no equality what so ever if PGI thinks they need the TBR as the point to evaluate other mechs. Yes the P2W chassis are damn good, but i see this game out of a F2P situation. When those mechs be part of a C-Bill transaction, the quirks may need to be redone. Only because it is possible that you buy yourself into an advantage should not have that much of an impact. Also i don't know for sure doese the 3E Slot Torso have a minus quirk? Like for example the 3E Arm of the MDD what has -5 CD, or the Dire Prime arm or the Timber SRM -CD on the S Torsos. Often such little things are overlooked when comparing such loads.

Averen, on 24 March 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

I don't even have that thing mastered and it feels like easy mode. Even stalkers at least require methodical play. Atm I'm rather using orions, because there is actually some complexity and challenge in getting good games with those mechs.

The agility of TBRs are superior and in normal queue you can easly abuse it. In cw however your outcome is fully depended on the group, so even if you have the game of your life you may losse since the 12 man does badly. Compared to other Clan Mechs for sure the TBR or SCR feels better but this counts also for good quirked mechs vs badly ones on IS side. And a defending Orion is a beastly mech, if the speed is not the part as long as you can controll bottlenecks. This is however overlocked. If you are free to move on a map and the battle could be everywhere you will choose the best position for you in normal mode. In cw the maps have bottlenecks and defenders as long as they have the position and can slay the atkers can abuse the fact that the atkers have to come to them and fight on their ground!

So in the end you can compare this damage numbers over all but it seems pretty balanced to me, whatsoever - you need to chose your fights carfully or you will bring yourself in a situation you be killed easy. Even the so beloved TBR doesn't change this fact. However the newest Map is pretty brawly so the IS get a good advantage there I think. On the other new map in cw i can not decide for sure who if favored, since it has some pretty bottlenecks wich could absude hard. Boreal is pretty much straight forward and not so much abuseable. Also sulfur is more open as long as you have overtaken the gate problem.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 24 March 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gyrok, you REALLY should read what some of us post, you look quite silly when you keep replying to things we never posted or implied.

Myself, I've been advocating to give the Clans some teeth back, I'm not opposed to the XL/ST change because it's a logical one and it should have always been there.

I've stated that OMNIPODS need to be OMNI, enough with this halfassed bs where you can't mount any weapon type in any slot, that's the entire effing POINT of the OMNIPODS!
uACs need to be boosted, I should NOT laugh when I see a Dire with 2 uAC20s coming at me, I should need to change my pants!
Quirks for weapons are at stupid levels, they should NEVER be above 15% TOTAL and that should be for heat dissipation - NOT drop the heat created!, quirk the MECH, not the godsbedamned weapons! Make it stronger, faster, more agile, increase it's ability to dissipate heat with specific weapons better, but do NOT increase range and cd times for weapons, WTBF? Clans are supposed to out range and damage the IS, why the hell would you totally negate that?

Myself, Krafty, Bishop, we all think the Clans are about where they need to be otherwise, we don't think they need to be slapped around with a nerfbat. Clans are OP still, not much, JUST enough with the XL/ST change to almost be where they should. Drop the heat on their weapons a bit, seriously, it's too damn high, they should run hot, they should NOT fry the pilot every time he pulls the trigger.

I don't play as Clan in CW, probably never will, but that doesn't mean I want them to be a rollover when I face them in CW. I've already stated that an easy victory against an inferior opponent is a tasteless victory, not worth my time. YOU obviously like that flavor Gyrok, nor are you alone, but hey, some people think working for what you get is stupid.

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 March 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Gyrok, you REALLY should read what some of us post, you look quite silly when you keep replying to things we never posted or implied.

Myself, I've been advocating to give the Clans some teeth back, I'm not opposed to the XL/ST change because it's a logical one and it should have always been there.

I've stated that OMNIPODS need to be OMNI, enough with this halfassed bs where you can't mount any weapon type in any slot, that's the entire effing POINT of the OMNIPODS!
uACs need to be boosted, I should NOT laugh when I see a Dire with 2 uAC20s coming at me, I should need to change my pants!
Quirks for weapons are at stupid levels, they should NEVER be above 15% TOTAL and that should be for heat dissipation - NOT drop the heat created!, quirk the MECH, not the godsbedamned weapons! Make it stronger, faster, more agile, increase it's ability to dissipate heat with specific weapons better, but do NOT increase range and cd times for weapons, WTBF? Clans are supposed to out range and damage the IS, why the hell would you totally negate that?

Myself, Krafty, Bishop, we all think the Clans are about where they need to be otherwise, we don't think they need to be slapped around with a nerfbat. Clans are OP still, not much, JUST enough with the XL/ST change to almost be where they should. Drop the heat on their weapons a bit, seriously, it's too damn high, they should run hot, they should NOT fry the pilot every time he pulls the trigger.

I don't play as Clan in CW, probably never will, but that doesn't mean I want them to be a rollover when I face them in CW. I've already stated that an easy victory against an inferior opponent is a tasteless victory, not worth my time. YOU obviously like that flavor Gyrok, nor are you alone, but hey, some people think working for what you get is stupid.

I read what you said...but you said PGI knows what they are doing in there as well...this after the Victor went nerfed into oblivion (while being played blindly by jump snipe remnants that clung to defunct mech because they had nothing better, and it just needed to be able to jump) and stayed for almost a year.

The reality is, that mech is still not what it should be, and Clans are roughly balanced. The fact that you continually state you want them stronger makes me wonder if you are crazy, or seeing something I am not. I personally think they are about where they should be...

Edited by Gyrok, 24 March 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[Ultimax]

KraftySOT, on 23 March 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Yet, I have no clam mechs in my hangar, am permanent to liao, and have zero intention of ever playing clams outside of random hilarity and event give aways.

I have played all the cbill clams, owned most of them, and did so back before, during, and after the quirkening.

There is absolutely no way on earth that a clam ERLL is as good as a reasonably quirked IS LL or ERLL. Id rather eat sand that put 2 ERLL on an Adder and take that into a game. Whereas ill do a happy dance if you give me a Raven 3L with 2ERLL.

Its hard points, location of those hardpoints, ecm, engine advantage, mobility, all act as force multipliers to those ERLL on the Raven, making THOSE ERLL (and why would you take ones that arent that good?) far better than contemporary mounted ERLL on clam mechs. The exception possibly being the Hellbringer, because mounts.

Even on the Doomcrow, if it wasnt backed up by the very good ERML clam laser, the ERLL would be less than stellar compared to the IS lasers that have half the duration or more.

Clam pulse lasers are bad. Smalls are bad. Larges are bad. Thats all of their lasers but one.

That means clam lasers as a whole, are bad.

Youre bad if you dont understand that. Without force multipliers like the mounts, ecm, and back up Mediums, a clam ERLL is a pile of junk.

I'm sorry Krafty, but it's clear at this point you really do not understand any of the weapon systems well enough to even be making an informed decision.





Secondly, you really can’t judge the balance of mechs of just playing against them.

You are see what that pilot can or can’t do, not what the mech can do.
You end up making judgements based on the pilots you see, not the mech itself.

I own about 80 total chassis variants, roughly split evenly between both IS and Clan mechs.

That’s a big part of what I base my decisions on, not from some bad piloting I come across in the queues.


I compare the capabilities of loadouts/weapons, I watch tournament/league streams to see what competitive players are doing.





I don't want to be rude, but if you think that clan lasers are bad, all of them, then really as Gas Guzzler said you have lost a lot of credibility.


I think you are not being dishonest, I think you are simply way misjudging things.


If you want me to cover some of the math in PM or on a public team speak chat at some point, I'd be happy to discuss with you because I do think you come across as honest in your intent, just mistaken in your conclusions.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

I read what you said...but you said PGI knows what they are doing in there as well...this after the Victor went nerfed into oblivion (while being played blindly by jump snipe remnants that clung to defunct mech because they had nothing better, and it just needed to be able to jump) and stayed for almost a year.

The reality is, that mech is still not what it should be, and Clans are roughly balanced. The fact that you continually state you want them stronger makes me wonder if you are crazy, or seeing something I am not. I personally think they are about where they should be...

I said PGI has the data, and the data they collect from CW SHOULD be more than enough to see exactly where the balance is at in regards to Clan vs IS. PGI is proposing the changes for the XL/ST, and now for the extra 5 tons for the IS drop deck(silly in my opinion, but again, that's MY OPINION, I don't have the hard data they do). These aren't things the PLAYERBASE is demanding from PGI, these are things PGI is tossing out as balance adjustments based on what they see in the data.

Why PGI does it what does, who the effing hell knows, stated that a few times already too, we don't see the data, we don't know what they are trying to accomplish based on that data. Maybe Paul or Russ do this **** just to see how bad the playerbase will go nuts, maybe they hate us, maybe they are just incompetent, don't know, don't care, we're a captive audience since there's no other MW game to leave this for.

And the Clans do need to be buffed up a bit, they've neutered too many features that make OmniMechs powerful, too far in my opinion. The Clans should be more powerful, that's rather the entire point of them, and that's what I personally want to see, a more powerful faction that the IS has to work at defeating. It's almost there, too many IS buffs via quirks though, too many features the Clans should have that are missing, fix those, we'll be at parity, not equality, parity. Clans will be slightly better on the Tech end, not enough to be Easy Button but enough that no skills can at least THINK they are good, while the IS will reward the skilled with truly fun gaming against a slightly superior foe...it's an Online PvP based game after all, the masses will NOT allow the Clans to really be OP as they should, but a LITTLE bit that can easily be replicated with skill for the IS..that'll work, especially for the true competitive players.

It's rather funny that you went nuts trying to defend the Clan Mechs at first, when they WERE OP as hell and needed to be balanced out, and now that they are balanced too far down, you think they are good and need to be left alone. IS quirks need to be redone, remove the range/cd/less heat, give them MECH quirks, not weapon quirks except for heat dissipation with certain specific weapons(I know, that would actually mean less heat generated but it's the same overall net result due to how they screwed up the heat system). XL/ST hit for the Clans, give them real OmniPods, reduce the heat on the lasers a bit, come on, it's silly how hot they made them. These things, we've got a nice parity going on, Clans are just OP enough to be something a newb can make use of, but not enough to make an expert automatically pick Clan over IS, fair fight, both are equal if skill is factored in. Much like the Spitfire and 109, parity...

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

I said PGI has the data, and the data they collect from CW SHOULD be more than enough to see exactly where the balance is at in regards to Clan vs IS. PGI is proposing the changes for the XL/ST, and now for the extra 5 tons for the IS drop deck(silly in my opinion, but again, that's MY OPINION, I don't have the hard data they do). These aren't things the PLAYERBASE is demanding from PGI, these are things PGI is tossing out as balance adjustments based on what they see in the data.

Why PGI does it what does, who the effing hell knows, stated that a few times already too, we don't see the data, we don't know what they are trying to accomplish based on that data. Maybe Paul or Russ do this **** just to see how bad the playerbase will go nuts, maybe they hate us, maybe they are just incompetent, don't know, don't care, we're a captive audience since there's no other MW game to leave this for.

And the Clans do need to be buffed up a bit, they've neutered too many features that make OmniMechs powerful, too far in my opinion. The Clans should be more powerful, that's rather the entire point of them, and that's what I personally want to see, a more powerful faction that the IS has to work at defeating. It's almost there, too many IS buffs via quirks though, too many features the Clans should have that are missing, fix those, we'll be at parity, not equality, parity. Clans will be slightly better on the Tech end, not enough to be Easy Button but enough that no skills can at least THINK they are good, while the IS will reward the skilled with truly fun gaming against a slightly superior foe...it's an Online PvP based game after all, the masses will NOT allow the Clans to really be OP as they should, but a LITTLE bit that can easily be replicated with skill for the IS..that'll work, especially for the true competitive players.

It's rather funny that you went nuts trying to defend the Clan Mechs at first, when they WERE OP as hell and needed to be balanced out, and now that they are balanced too far down, you think they are good and need to be left alone. IS quirks need to be redone, remove the range/cd/less heat, give them MECH quirks, not weapon quirks except for heat dissipation with certain specific weapons(I know, that would actually mean less heat generated but it's the same overall net result due to how they screwed up the heat system). XL/ST hit for the Clans, give them real OmniPods, reduce the heat on the lasers a bit, come on, it's silly how hot they made them. These things, we've got a nice parity going on, Clans are just OP enough to be something a newb can make use of, but not enough to make an expert automatically pick Clan over IS, fair fight, both are equal if skill is factored in. Much like the Spitfire and 109, parity...

I was fighting mostly for 10 vs 12 then...

Since that is gone, I agree clans are basically overnerfed. At this point I would rather keep what we have and eat crow but call it ice cream than see some XL speed nerfs and all sorts of other witch hunt BS come about because a bunch of no skills cannot see how uberleet the IS already is. We have played strong teams in the IS. We give about as good as we get, and this last round of quirks made some mechs ridiculously strong...we see it, we know it. However, considering the average skill level in this game, I would take things as they are now and lose to teams we should be more competitive with based on history, to keep people from screwing with the clan mechs anymore. There are too many idiots who honestly believe the "clamz OP pls nerf" BS that is perpetually propagated by certain people in the community who are looking at it from some angle where their head is buried in the sand...or they outright ignore certain aspects and over emphasize others...

[KraftySOT]

Ultimatum X, on 24 March 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

Secondly, you really can’t judge the balance of mechs of just playing against them.



I think you are not being dishonest, I think you are simply way misjudging things.


If you want me to cover some of the math in PM or on a public team speak chat at some point, I'd be happy to discuss with you because I do think you come across as honest in your intent, just mistaken in your conclusions.

Ive played most of the mechs in the game. Though not all in a setting to really test them to their fullest.

When you compare certain IS quirks, with their respective weapons, they become better, than most of the clan lasers. The IS LPL quirked on a chassis or two, is by and far the best laser in the game. Right behind that, is the C ERML. Behind that the IS Medium, the MPL, then LL, then ERLL (all of these when used on their correct chassis with the correct quirks), then falling well behind these, are the rest of the clan lasers, then the IS small laser, which is the worst of all the lasers.

Now, Clam lasers are better than their ACs, AND their missiles other than two chassis with Streakboat builds. So people get the impression that theyre great. Theyre not. They were before the quirkening, but now you have lasers that generate more heat when the ST is gone, are subpar to many of the IS counterparts with mounted properly, in low mounts on almost everything.

Its not a matter of Clam lasers being better on paper, its adding together all of these things:

Map
Spawnzones
Gamemode
Quirks
Cost
Tonnage
Heat
Damage
Location of hardpoints
Location of mounts

Wheres the clam mech that can shoot a laser at 1000m for 15 damage while 90% of its mech is behind cover?

Name that Clam ERLL and ill give you my account

Yes, when you remove most of those things that effect the lasers, Clam lasers start to look better and better artificially. There still is no tiny high mounted 2xERLL with ECM for the clans. There is no wubboat that can do 60 damage basically as PPFLD. You dont have a mech that can both laser vomit, and minimize face time. The same problem they have with their ACs. And the best mech you can do that on, if its hitboxes ever get fixed, will die to a strong breeze like every other medium in the game and be worthless.

As said, the ERLL for the clans is really worthless on everything but the Doomcrow and Hellbringer. Theyre the only chassis that can avoid damage, one through crazy hitboxes, the other through ecm and decent armor to speed ratio.

And both of them are low mid mounted.

Edited by KraftySOT, 24 March 2015 - 11:17 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Clams have this going for them:

Most of them are space rich, most of them are in fairly decent units, many of them are the same people who set up TS channels, do community related things, record twitch streams, are productive members of the community and are good players who have always gravitated towards the most powerful things. Hence why they shelled out money for OP clans for 8 months before they got balanced with negatives, and weapons adjustments, and the quirkening to make the IS vs clans CW work. Almost every clanner has derpx4 and every module you can imagine.

Most of the IS, are noobers in trial mechs or people who think theyre awesome in a Wolverine or Hunchback.

So even the PGI metrics are going to be wrong, because they include all the terrible, all the stats from before the nerfs, various comp groups coming and going, and most players new players shoveling into the IS. So youll get the CW map to reflect that, which seems to be everyones "Hey the clans are op!" rallying cry. That timelapse.

When in reality, the balance is pretty good.

Both sides have things they can do very well, and those things all have counters.

Its not like the ERPPC thunderbolt that just did something that there was no counter too. You cant possibly beat that thing with the hot CERPPCs, and you cant face time it with lasers, it out DPSs C Gauss, and its standing next to an ECM raven, just laughing at you. Hence why it had to be hit with the nerf bat.

Now theyre quirking clan mechs, because seriously, most of them are no match for the IS meta mechs, and perform so abysmally, that theyre laughing stocks (the Badder, the Gag-oyle)

But yeah if youd like to hop into something and show meh the errors of my ways, im all about it.

Im not being disingenuous here, I honestly think the balance, if numbered, is 48-52 in favor of the clans. Which is about as good as I think youll ever get, without more ERPPC thunderbolt madness. Possibly a ST nerf for all the clans then some "REAL" quirks for the Badder and Gag-oyle and Failhawk. Maybe even that Summoner Bishop keeps complaining about.

Edited by KraftySOT, 24 March 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

I was fighting mostly for 10 vs 12 then...

Since that is gone, I agree clans are basically overnerfed. At this point I would rather keep what we have and eat crow but call it ice cream than see some XL speed nerfs and all sorts of other witch hunt BS come about because a bunch of no skills cannot see how uberleet the IS already is. We have played strong teams in the IS. We give about as good as we get, and this last round of quirks made some mechs ridiculously strong...we see it, we know it. However, considering the average skill level in this game, I would take things as they are now and lose to teams we should be more competitive with based on history, to keep people from screwing with the clan mechs anymore. There are too many idiots who honestly believe the "clamz OP pls nerf" BS that is perpetually propagated by certain people in the community who are looking at it from some angle where their head is buried in the sand...or they outright ignore certain aspects and over emphasize others...

Both sides of the debate are guilty of the overlooking/overemphasizing, that's why some of us, like Bishop, Krafty, myself, try to look at the whole forest and not individual trees. We know there's imbalance in both sides, we're also aware that there SHOULD be imbalance, but it needs to be a directed imbalance, and that's not really happening right now in MWO. The IS keeps getting too many overreaction buffs and quirks, the Clans get slapped across the face too many times. Quirks are overboard, need to be toned way the hell down(which is gonna piss off a LOT of ISers, tough, deal with it), the Clans need the XL/ST heat/speed hit, it's a little too much currently for no valid reason(give me a valid reason, not 'Omni's are locked on engine/crit placement, no duh, that's a limitation of the better tech), and they need some buffs, like OmniPods being OMNI, less heat on the lasers, uACs that are useful instead of just amusing(and I USE those things, pretty damn well I might add, but they are horrible). We need better JJ's across the board, we need crits across the board, engine/actuators/gyros/lifesupport/sensors, and we need more Clan Mechs, including the BattleMechs like the Kodiak(oh gods what I wouldn't give for one of those..MAKE THOSE CLAWS HUGE!) so the Clans can actually HAVE some fun in the MechLab, just set some limits on them so they can't be made TOO silly(no hardpoint inflation would fix that).

PGI sometimes listens to the players, sometimes they ignore us because the data doesn't support the whining. I know the problems with that, I've worked in the industry professionally and worked on mods as well. Players ALWAYS have their opinions and set in stone demands, and they are usually totally fubar and need to be ignored at all costs, ESPECIALLY the top competitive players, they are the worst! I know, I was one, made money doing it, and looking back now, my thoughts on what was needed to make the game better...worst effing possible things to do. Sometimes the players have good ideas though, and those should be listened to, but they don't NEED to be acted upon.

Krafty, Hellbringer, forget the exact Omnipod variant, but one can fit an cERLL in the head...keep your account though, I've got enough toys

[KraftySOT]

I think you can just leave the Ice Ferret and Myst Lynx as terrible mechs since the clans going to get its fast light finally. And the Badder should be doing the lightmech heavy lifter role, just not failing at it.

[KraftySOT]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 March 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Krafty, Hellbringer, forget the exact Omnipod variant, but one can fit an cERLL in the head...keep your account though, I've got enough toys

Yeah, just at that range, its damage is only 6. Whereas a Raven 3L is still getting 15 of its 18 for 2xERLL. Making it the premier ERLL sniper. Positioned properly, youll actually out DPS alot of clan mechs beyond 700m. Its silly funny.

[Kristov Kerensky]

KraftySOT, on 24 March 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yeah, just at that range, its damage is only 6. Whereas a Raven 3L is still getting 15 of its 18 for 2xERLL. Making it the premier ERLL sniper. Positioned properly, youll actually out DPS alot of clan mechs beyond 700m. Its silly funny.

You asked for the Clam that could do that I honestly haven't looked at the quirks on my 3L, it's built to do it's job of harassment or ECM cover, 3 meds and 2 4packs, have to look at the quirks when I get home tonight, 1000m and doing that much damage...ok, I was wrong, IS quirks aren't overboard, they are EFFING STUPIDLY OVERBOARD! I've used my config since we got the Raven, never much on the sniper config myself, always felt that's better suited to something that can hit hard at long ranges..guess THAT'S changed a bit.

[KraftySOT]

There are, imo three distinct modes of balance that people talk about and we all arent talking about the same one.

Youve got the "This is how everyone as a generalization uses _____" and wants balance based on those set of facts. Then youve got the "This is how everyone who is comp as a generalization uses ____" and wants balanced based on those set of facts. Then you have the "This is how everyone COULD use _______" and wants balanced based on those set of facts.

All of those sets of facts will be slightly different. Everyone as a generalization, isnt good, infact, only the top 20% could by definition be "good", meaning 80% are "less than good" ranging from average around the 50% mark, to, horrible, at the bottom 20%. And of course there are far more bad, than good, its like that no matter what the thing is. Baseball. Flying. Fornicating. It doesnt matter. Most people are meh. A few are really good.

So the way they use things, and the balance related to that, may still allow some crazy OP things to be done. Everyone whose into the industry has seen that happen.

The second, well...who cares what the comps think, even if im one of those people. Ive played a number of games for money, and I see that perspective, but I dont see the business wisdom in basing game balance around a very small number of the playerbase.

The last...is what I attempt to propose. Balance things based on what you CAN do. Not really what everyone or very few, actually do. Thats the best way to corral people into the meta that you, as the developer, wants. If you want to see both the IS and Clan have an equal number of Tier 1 mechs, you have to stop thinking about how the bads use them, or the goods use them, and extrapolate data based on what they can potentially do, and make sure both sides, can potentially do the same thing, in different ways.

Then let the whines ensue. Since everyone will whine anyways. People shouted 'get a helmet' when the pay2play clans were infact OP. People said "Get a helmet" over the thunderbolt.

Regardless of the reality, people will whine. The best you can do is balance things based on potential. Whatever happens after that due to the nature of human beings. Who. Cares.

[KraftySOT]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 March 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

You asked for the Clam that could do that I honestly haven't looked at the quirks on my 3L, it's built to do it's job of harassment or ECM cover, 3 meds and 2 4packs, have to look at the quirks when I get home tonight, 1000m and doing that much damage...ok, I was wrong, IS quirks aren't overboard, they are EFFING STUPIDLY OVERBOARD! I've used my config since we got the Raven, never much on the sniper config myself, always felt that's better suited to something that can hit hard at long ranges..guess THAT'S changed a bit.

I learnt it when I was grinding headshots. Join game, look for disco, get to the fastest to reach LOS, headshot. When I noticed it take only 3 alphas on alot of people I was pretty sure werent skimping on head armor, at 900m or so. I started digging into it in the test range.

Now, youll never see all that damage in live fire because HSR on anything but a target standing still. But any disconnected mech, its a quick way to nail at least 100 headshots and move on. Takes a while hunting for discos.

[KraftySOT]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 March 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

You asked for the Clam that could do that I honestly haven't looked at the quirks on my 3L, it's built to do it's job of harassment or ECM cover, 3 meds and 2 4packs, have to look at the quirks when I get home tonight, 1000m and doing that much damage...ok, I was wrong, IS quirks aren't overboard, they are EFFING STUPIDLY OVERBOARD! I've used my config since we got the Raven, never much on the sniper config myself, always felt that's better suited to something that can hit hard at long ranges..guess THAT'S changed a bit.

Imagine if it had range quirks.

With modules for an extra 10% range, youre looking at about 800m before falloff, with 3 damage falling off by 1000. So at 900m or so, youre looking at less than 2 damage off each laser, for 15 damage, in probably the best mounts on any mech in the game, extreme speed, shy of HSR breaking speed, and, ECM.

7.5% less duration, rounded, means your damage packets are larger, and theres less of them.

Now, on some other quirks, youre turning IS LLs into clan LPLs, for less heat and tonnage along with some better range.

Edited by KraftySOT, 24 March 2015 - 11:58 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Lets say you do 10 damage in 2 seconds. Each second is 20 'packets' (shoot the snow, youll see the hit markers for each packet). Thats 40 packets.

How much damage is in each packet? What resolution is there for that? Will 0.122 damage packets register? Will you lose 0.122 armor or 0.1 armor, or 0.2 armor?

How many packets are missing? Not counting? Simply lost by Comcast?

More damage in a packet, is better. Clearly. Clam lasers are bad.

*drops mic*

I simply dont know any other way to put it. The ERML is fantastic, it really is. The Clam lasers are all better than their unquirked IS counterparts. No argument. Then throw in some quirks, mounts, mech choices, auxillary equipment...etc...you have more parity.

Clans have TCs, which can really up their game, but at a tonnage hit, when ALL their mechs have low pod space compared to the IS.

Im not saying its simple. It isnt. I also never said that the clans werent especially considering the holy trinity "better". Just I disagree quite vehemently with anyone who says either side is OVER powered. OVER powered, to me, is .. well actually pretty rare in games. Oddjob in Golden Eye comes to mind. That character was the only character that was short enough that you had to aim down at him. Thats over powered. He has a power that no one else has, that with fubar n64 controllers was hard to counter. Hence why everyone banned Oddjob at their homes.

When I see people flat out say, NO TIMBERWOLVES IN OUR TOURNAMENT. Then something is OP.

Balance isnt perfect and never will be, but its not shabby compared to many other games out there. Even though we have some mechs and weapons that are utterly and completely useless like Vindicators, Badders, and Flamers.

Edited by KraftySOT, 24 March 2015 - 12:14 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Krafty has the right of it, you don't balance on the 'average' or the 'comp', you balance on the possible and go from there. Bishop seems to do the same thing I think, most of his ideas on balance appear that way to me at any rate, I'm sure there's some others who think the same way. Sometimes however, we tend to get a little TT purist and that's a failing we share, just remind us when we do that

[KraftySOT]

Its the best, as the "game master" that you can do.

Give someone a 109, give someone a Spitfire. We know theyre balanced based on their capabilities, their strengths, and their weaknesses. If someone wants to take a 109 and go chase a Spitfires tail, he will ALWAYS be out turned, and die. Thats not the 'game masters' fault. Thats the players, playing the game. The 109 pilot has to learn what Obi *** said "Use the vertical Luke". That climb rate is how you beat a Spitfire.

If you give someone a choice between a rock, a piece of paper, and some scissors, they keep choosing rock, and losing, thats not because the rock is unbalanced or the paper is OP. The game is fine. Its player choice and you cant account for that. So why try?

Using comps and bads as a metric isnt science, or useful.

Edited by KraftySOT, 24 March 2015 - 12:19 PM.