10 replies to this topic

[Knyx]

So I want to start off by saying I played in beta, then stopped and came back like almost a month ago and have been playing very heavily, especially CW. Here are some of the issues I see (which could be merely wrongfully perceived) and my suggested solutions.




Issue #1: Mechlab

- Allow us to play around in the mechlab while in any of the ques. Just lockout any mechs you are in que with (or in your drop deck).



Issue #2: Clan quirks

- Please stop settling on just giving quirks to the weakest clan mechs. They are weak for a reason and it is not the lack of quirks. The ones you added are so small as well it is a joke to begin with.


Issue #3: Alpha vs DPS

- So far what I have read and for the most part see for myself is that IS is designed to have the best alpha by a noticeable margin. Well this game is based on PvP. It doesn't take brilliance to know that in PvP, burst is king. You simply cannot have 2 sides of a conflict and have one side's arsenal be completely designed to have the advantage of burst and the other not. Now I could be completely wrong on this, but in any case if not, I couldn't care less if the current implementation is "canon", if you want the game to thrive this has to be fixed.


Issue #4: Nerfs and Balancing

- Stop nerfing mechs/weapons/etc just because a minority complains about them.
Even if you try and make the "metrics" argument it will still be easily shot down. Any metric that says X clan mech or X IS mech is overpowered is 9/10 so skewed because of the plethora of blatantly underpowered options that only the hardcore "enthusiast" or newer player will play. Solve this by buffing the under used/underpowered stuff first and then see how the metrics play out.


Issue #5: CW

- When both teams are formed and you are waiting to drop. Even though it allows you to edit your drop deck and save it, and claims to be saved, it does not save.

- Fix invasion so that light rush tactics are not allowed to end the game in the first couple minutes. Some solutions to this are making the gates and walls around them much higher. Another solution is to give the omega a large damage reduction until the attackers have gotten a certain number of kills.

- Fix the drop zones on certain maps to greatly reduce spawn camping.

- Remove the omega destruction requirement from counter-attack. Make counter attack a straight up skirmish/attrition


Issue #6: Lack of real anti-cheat
- I have been in quite a few matches were certain individuals and even units are clearly using some sort of trainer (or Cheat engine). These are scenarios where it is clear that is it far beyond anything that lag may cause. Some examples are Raven's, sometimes even still ones that take more damage then 3 Atlases combined before even going critical. I have even seen a certain unit where every mech was immune to rear damage. I have seen mechs stand there and non stop alpha 4/+ LL or LPL and not only not shut down nor show any signs of heat. I have even seen a light with a single LL turn a fresh assault mech critical from a single front hit.


Notes:
- Certain changes I would like to see to specific clan mechs are as follows

Ice Ferret: Reduce the minimum tonnage. It has sooo many open slots, soo little tonnage and few hardpoints to play with.

Kit Fox: Increase the max speed and base torso twist speed.

Nova: Up the quirk %s or add more to make up for the slow speed compared to other better meds



Thanks for reading, I look forward to responses.

Edited by Knyx, 22 March 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Shredhead]

Knyx, on 22 March 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

So I want to start off by saying I played in beta, then stopped and came back like almost a month ago and have been playing very heavily, especially CW. Here are some of the issues I see (which could be merely wrongfully perceived) and my suggested solutions.

Welcome back.

Quote

Issue #1: Mechlab

- Allow us to play around in the mechlab while in any of the ques. Just lockout any mechs you are in que with (or in your drop deck).

This, very much.

Quote

Issue #2: Clan quirks

- Please stop settling on just giving quirks to the weakest clan mechs. They are weak for a reason and it is not the lack of quirks. The ones you added are so small as well it is a joke to begin with.

You weren't here when most of the stuff happened, so let's just say it's a: necessary for the ingame variety and b: PGI was asked several times by an overwhelming majority to take smaller steps buffing/nerfing stuff. The quirks are ok and will be adjusted accordingly.

Quote

Issue #3: Alpha vs DPS

- So far what I have read and for the most part see for myself is that IS is designed to have the best alpha by a noticeable margin. Well this game is based on PvP. It doesn't take brilliance to know that in PvP, burst is king. You simply cannot have 2 sides of a conflict and have one side's arsenal be completely designed to have the advantage of burst and the other not. Now I could be completely wrong on this, but in any case if not, I couldn't care less if the current implementation is "canon", if you want the game to thrive this has to be fixed.

Completely the opposite is true. Clans are the alpha damage monsters, while IS mechs tend to be more balanced or DPS oriented.

Quote

Issue #4: Nerfs and Balancing

- Stop nerfing mechs/weapons/etc just because a minority complains about them.
Even if you try and make the "metrics" argument it will still be easily shot down. Any metric that says X clan mech or X IS mech is overpowered is 9/10 so skewed because of the plethora of blatantly underpowered options that only the hardcore "enthusiast" or newer player will play. Solve this by buffing the under used/underpowered stuff first and then see how the metrics play out.

That's what they try to do with the quirks, and so far works quite well. Forum rage by terribads led to overnerfing several mechs though (*cough* 9S, *cough* 6K), so yeah, they should not listen to the forum whiners.

Quote

Issue #5: CW

- When both teams are formed and you are waiting to drop. Even though it allows you to edit your drop deck and save it, and claims to be saved, it does not save.

Bugs, they are on it though.

Quote

- Fix invasion so that light rush tactics are not allowed to end the game in the first couple minutes. Some solutions to this are making the gates and walls around them much higher. Another solution is to give the omega a large damage reduction until the attackers have gotten a certain number of kills.

I like the second option better. Another possibility would be to not have any defenders within a certain radius around the omega for it to open. This way attackers would have to establish dominance first, which is barely possible in light mechs.

Quote

- Fix the drop zones on certain maps to greatly reduce spawn camping.

We told them from day one, they're on it and I hope we see some results soon.

Quote

- Remove the omega destruction requirement from counter-attack. Make counter attack a straight up skirmish/attrition

No. Period. Otherwise you will only have a boring camp fest.

Quote

Issue #6: Lack of real anti-cheat
- I have been in quite a few matches were certain individuals and even units are clearly using some sort of trainer (or Cheat engine). These are scenarios where it is clear that is it far beyond anything that lag may cause. Some examples are Raven's, sometimes even still ones that take more damage then 3 Atlases combined before even going critical. I have even seen a certain unit where every mech was immune to rear damage. I have seen mechs stand there and non stop alpha 4/+ LL or LPL and not only not shut down nor show any signs of heat. I have even seen a light with a single LL turn a fresh assault mech critical from a single front hit.

Report these guys to support@mwomercs.com please. I've never seen something like this. We have the best possible anti cheat solution in this game anyway, as everything is server authorative.

Quote

Notes:
- Certain changes I would like to see to specific clan mechs are as follows

Ice Ferret: Reduce the minimum tonnage. It has sooo many open slots, soo little tonnage and few hardpoints to play with.

I don't understand what you want here, sorry.

Quote

Kit Fox: Increase the max speed and base torso twist speed.

How? What? Torso twist doesn't help on it anyway. Kit Fox needs a certain play style, basically a mix between second line harasser and mid range nuisance. Stay with the big boys, weave in and out between their legs and provide ECM cover. Or go straight light hunter with 4 SSRM4.

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Nova: Up the quirk %s or add more to make up for the slow speed compared to other better meds

Aside from giving it armor buffs, nothing much will help the Nova, it's a geometry thing.

Quote

Thanks for reading, I look forward to responses.

Edited by Shredhead, 22 March 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Red1769]

Not sure if you should be looking forward to responses. But here you go.

1. What are you talking about? While you're waiting for a match or what? I'm confused here...

2. True they are weak for a reason, some many, but that's also why they are being quirked. Agreed that they're too small or not the right ones to give (cough * Adder ERPPC cooldown quirk * cough) but there is also a thread pinned for feedback on this particular one. As Shred said, they semi-learned a lesson in overquirking stuff...but now they need to learn to not start off this small. (though disagreed with him on at least the T-bolt PPC nerf)

3. I don't know where to start with this one. Clans have bigger alphas, but most of it can be spread around or are spread weapons in the first place. IS has more pinpoint, front loaded damage weapons. This ties into balancing the two techs. Though in general, currently, it goes like this, when taking weapons into consideration and that's it: Clans have better lasers, despite higher heat and beam duration. IS (aside from Gauss and mgs? Gauss for sure) have better ballistics due to being pinpoint, front loaded damage dealers. IS have better LRMs, which isn't saying much, but Clans have better SRMs, though not as much as I originally thought (half weight and less crits vs. IS versions having less spread and slightly more damage per missile). PPCs are debatable (Clans have better ERPPC, but don't have access to a lower heat version), that said, PPCs are really only good on mechs quirked for them.

4. This is what quirks hopefully try to do, though admittedly, some mechs do need adjusting. You can't just say "just" nerf/buff this, balancing works in two directions. Some things do get hit harder than they should, some get overbuffed, that's just how it is. This game will never be fully balanced because of the mix of subjective and objective arguements. There are some widely agreed upon things, however. Like the Twolf and Doomcrow are among the best of the best.

5. Gonna skip this one, because I don't play CW...I just read that section every so often.

6. Um...what? Not saying it's not possible to hack this game, but with it being server authoritive, it makes it several times more difficult. Some of what you're seeing is hit registration failing, and not sure what you're complaining about on the LLs and LPLs...you can fire 3 without Ghost Heat kicking in, four shouldn't be that much of a penalty, and on a mech with heat gen quirks for those particular weapons, I would hope that they're very cool. Otherwise, as Shredhead mentioned, email support with screenshots, time and time zone, map, mode, etc.

7. Have no idea what you're asking for on the Ice Ferret, could you be more clear on what you mean?

The Kit Fox is a pocket medium...not your typical light. When it gets quirked, it needs to be treated like a pocket medium and get weapon quirks instead of defensive stuff. Well, except maybe on that one arm for AMS...

Nova...as Shred said, not a lot can help the poor thing due to its geometry. Jump Jet quirks and heat gen. quirks might make it worth taking out instead of an SCR...but that's a huge might.

Edited by Red1769, 22 March 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Knyx]

(7) I am basically talking about the tonnage you have to play with with all equipment stripped from the mech, it should be raised. As an example with all armor points allocated but no weapons or equipment at all, you have like 9 tons to play with. Ice Ferret already suffers from small amount of weapon hardpoints and it has quite a bit of open space otherwise even in places with no hardpoints. I think with 2-4 tons freed up it would be in a perfect spot. So far in the tons of games I have done, I have yet to see a Kit Fox do better then a Adder/Mist lynx. Playing it, it feels useless compared to the other 2 as well.

(3) Well for this month i have been playing religiously, I experience quite different. I have even used some of the top builds and even mastered those mechs. This might have to do with better hardpoint allocation. But also since you say clan lasers are better, lets look at those for an example... specifically large pulse. Clan is 13 damage at 1.12 duration where the IS is 11 damage at 0.67 duration. Just by doing the math, the IS comes out on top with highest burst damage, by a large margin too.
Remember this is also without factoring in any quirks, and as you mentioned IS holds the lead in burst in ballistic weapons and missiles as well. Now factor all the quirks, and less heat and now you have a very large lead in burst damage for IS AND right after that second alpha IS is now holding the lead in DPS as well.


As for the Timber and crow. All I see on the forums is mostly mercs and IS players complaining about them, but it goes to my previous point of the plethora of options that are underpowered. I use the crowmyself, but I would never trade a hellbringer for a timber after playing with both a lot.

I have yet to see anything overpowered with any of the 3, and wouldn't even put any of them in the top spot for all mechs in the game (in same weight class).
What is more likely is that IS players are so used to winning every trade (because of the superior burst damage, front loaded weapons, etc), that any mechs the clans have that even come close to the potential of their IS mechs is seen as overpowered. The basic factors there are a common mis-perception in any faction based game to this date.

Edited by Knyx, 22 March 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[Red1769]

Hellbie is solid, so I don't blame you there. I have both Timber and Doomcrow, and personally, when I brought those out, I didn't see the big deal either (granted, I haven't brought them out very much). I think most of it is a hit reg issue due to animation and the "bunny hop" thing thats messing some things up, especially on the SCR. If they need adjustments, its very slight, imo.

There are some calling for some limited ability to switch out things/free up the mechlab a little bit on certain Clan mechs. Which would certainly help the ones they are specifically citing, like the Ice Ferret. Not gonna argue if it's a good or bad idea.

Not sure if you put range into consideration, as situational as it can be. Generally speaking, lpls are bad weapons anyway, though I tend to have better success with them compared to the er lasers. And, as I said, it was purely from the weapon standpoint without the quirks. Not saying I'm right or anything, just laying down the general consensus from what people have been throwing around, math and all, here on the forums. And almost despite the math, ingame, it seems to be that way.

Not gonna argue the IS now has some nice stuff, especially for the previously underrated mechs. But there is one thing you should also look back on, as outdated as it is. That 64% win ratio shortly after the first quirkening. It can (and has to death) been argued because of the average 100 point difference in Elo in favor of the Clans, and the numbers have added up that that might just be the case. Compared to the first 80 or 90% wins from earlier, it's a pretty good leap.

Personally, and at least some people agree, a more recent test should happen, especially before the upcoming? engine nerf (which I'm not wholly against). And then give a much, much more detailed analysis of why it is the way it is (or why they think so). Give us charts of most used weapons, mechs, damage/kill numbers, what's happened in PUGs and comp. the whole nine yards.

Some of the whining is justified, but it's not a "Hey, let's try to keep this superior to that by whining about it in the forums" all the time. Well, maybe a few people on both sides are that way and heaven help you if you try to convince them otherwise. There probably is some degree of truth in it...it's just trying to find out what it is.

[Knyx]

Red1769, on 22 March 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Hellbie is solid, so I don't blame you there. I have both Timber and Doomcrow, and personally, when I brought those out, I didn't see the big deal either (granted, I haven't brought them out very much). I think most of it is a hit reg issue due to animation and the "bunny hop" thing thats messing some things up, especially on the SCR. If they need adjustments, its very slight, imo.

There are some calling for some limited ability to switch out things/free up the mechlab a little bit on certain Clan mechs. Which would certainly help the ones they are specifically citing, like the Ice Ferret. Not gonna argue if it's a good or bad idea.

Not sure if you put range into consideration, as situational as it can be. Generally speaking, lpls are bad weapons anyway, though I tend to have better success with them compared to the er lasers. And, as I said, it was purely from the weapon standpoint without the quirks. Not saying I'm right or anything, just laying down the general consensus from what people have been throwing around, math and all, here on the forums. And almost despite the math, ingame, it seems to be that way.

Not gonna argue the IS now has some nice stuff, especially for the previously underrated mechs. But there is one thing you should also look back on, as outdated as it is. That 64% win ratio shortly after the first quirkening. It can (and has to death) been argued because of the average 100 point difference in Elo in favor of the Clans, and the numbers have added up that that might just be the case. Compared to the first 80 or 90% wins from earlier, it's a pretty good leap.

Personally, and at least some people agree, a more recent test should happen, especially before the upcoming? engine nerf (which I'm not wholly against). And then give a much, much more detailed analysis of why it is the way it is (or why they think so). Give us charts of most used weapons, mechs, damage/kill numbers, what's happened in PUGs and comp. the whole nine yards.

Some of the whining is justified, but it's not a "Hey, let's try to keep this superior to that by whining about it in the forums" all the time. Well, maybe a few people on both sides are that way and heaven help you if you try to convince them otherwise. There probably is some degree of truth in it...it's just trying to find out what it is.

Not sure how any math here on the forums could show different, it is clear cut and dry.
11 damage for 0.67s is much more damage in 1s then 13 damage for 1.12s is in 1 second. This shows IS lasers as superior in burst damage.

If the mech using weapons with the shorter duration and higher burst are also generating less heat/allowed to do more alphas as well without overheating, then that mech is also winning in DPS as well.

Edited by Knyx, 22 March 2015 - 05:12 PM.

[Red1769]

Allow me to quote someone that has explained it better than me. This is from a recent thread, and considers it a bit more. Clan lasers trade greater range, greater damage, and weighing less for higher heat and longer beam durations. Keep in mind, I don't always agree with him. Second half of his post is especially relevant. Knew I was forgetting something. Hit him and Mcgral up if you really want to know more and get them involved if you wish. They argue it better than me...mostly because I"m too lazy to do the math.

Ultimatum X, on 22 March 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

That's because Clan Heavies have superior engines - granting superior speed or superior durability or both.

Clan Heavies have access to clan Lasers, which are outright superior on 99% of builds vs. IS with no quirks.

Clan Heavies can often get into extremely high DHS numbers, 22 to 26 is not uncommon. One of my Hellbringer builds runs 28.

This means a higher HEAT CAP and it means a faster cooling rate.




When you can take 3x Clan Medium Pulse for 6 tons and be doing similar damage / heat as 2x IS LPLs for 14 tons, and very similar ranges - you are working at a massive tonnage deficit on the IS mech. This is why we have quirks.

When you can take 4x CERMLAS for 4 tons, and be doing similar damage for similar heat at a similar range vs. 3x IS LLAS at 15 tons, you are working at a massive tonnage deficit on the IS mech.





This is why IS mechs got quirks in the first place.


Look at those tonnage differences.

EIGHT extra tons for the CMPL build.
ELEVEN extra tons for the CERMLAS build.

[Knyx]

Red1769, on 22 March 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

Allow me to quote someone that has explained it better than me. This is from a recent thread, and considers it a bit more. Clan lasers trade greater range, greater damage, and weighing less for higher heat and longer beam durations. Keep in mind, I don't always agree with him. Second half of his post is especially relevant. Knew I was forgetting something. Hit him and Mcgral up if you really want to know more and get them involved if you wish. They argue it better than me...mostly because I"m too lazy to do the math.

Range is situational.

but hands down, no contest, in PVP burst damage is king. The numbers on the weapons and weight is just on paper values but fails to calculate the things that really matter. If you say could take those above weapon comparisons on 2 of the same mech with the same amount of armor allocated and everything else possible like max heatsinks, then have those 2 mechs stand still and non stop alpha the CT of the other. The one with the IS weapons is going to win. Better burst and DPS. The heatsinks you can stack on the clan mechs is certainly nice but just makes it a little more manageable, but still only barely closing the gap in burst as well as DPS where he IS weapon holds king.

[MechaBattler]

The quirks are weak now. But they'll get buffed as needed. Having played through the majority of PGI's balancing attempts. They tend to do things either over the top or piece by piece. Personally piece by piece works better. But it takes longer. Besides. Clan weapons are still better.

Balancing is even harder now. Because you have to balance IS to Clan, IS to IS, and Clan to Clan. Though in the Clans, the fixed equipment, makes certain Clan mechs heads and shoulders better than others. Even within Clan weapons, lasers dominate, and Clan ACs are just not as worth taking. It's compounded by their decision to nerf AC range. And with Clan lasers already having longer range, it just makes ACs less appealing.

[Ultimax]

Red1769, on 22 March 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

Allow me to quote someone that has explained it better than me. This is from a recent thread, and considers it a bit more. Clan lasers trade greater range, greater damage, and weighing less for higher heat and longer beam durations. Keep in mind, I don't always agree with him. Second half of his post is especially relevant. Knew I was forgetting something. Hit him and Mcgral up if you really want to know more and get them involved if you wish. They argue it better than me...mostly because I"m too lazy to do the math.

There are more comparisons as well.


2x CLPL =
12 Tons
26 Damage
20 Heat (1.3 damage per point of heat)
600m Range
1.12s burn

3x IS LLAS =
15 Tons
27 Damage
21 Heat (1.29 damage per point of heat)
450m Range
1s burn



So, for the extremely miniscule cost of 0.12s burn time the clan build is

3 Tons lighter
More efficient on damage
Has an extra 150 meters range (or 33% more range)



There is really no realistic way to compete with that without quirking IS mechs or buffing IS weapons, or nerfing Clan weapons.

The IS build is always at a disadvantage.



So when I build my clan mechs, and I want something like 3x LLAS worth of firepower I have multiple options.


I can lose a touch of range & burn time benefit, and use 4x CERMLAS, saving 11 tons.

I can lose a touch of burn time benefit, and use 2x CLPLs saving 3 tons.


Or I can combine those two, and find some place in between (which many mechs do for their versions of laser vomit, for example 1x CLPL +3 to 5 CERMLAS on SCR, HBR, or 2x CLPL and 3 to 4 CERMLAS on TBR, etc).



Even a Summoner with just:

2x CLPLS
2x CERMLAS

Runs a 40 point alpha, able to engage targets out to 700 or 800m comfortably with the CLPLs and use all weapons in a more optimal zone of 400-600m has the equivalent of MORE THAN four IS LLAS.


4x LLAS =
20 Tons
36 damage on alpha
33.88 heat on alpha (ghost heat)

vs.

2x CLPL & 2x CERMLAS =
14 Tons
40 damage on alpha
32 heat


Less heat on alpha, for more damage, with more range available + SIX spare tons for DHS, and only requires 6 crit slots instead of 8.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 March 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[PurpleNinja]

A few valid points and tons of bull feces.

2/10