20 replies to this topic

[Mahpsy]

So as we all know lbx weapons are a bit mehhh. What dose everyone think this weapons roll should be? a up close shotgun of doom? a long range mech shaking support weapon?( like ac2 and 5 in the past). What can make them unique and have a solid place in the game?

[FupDup]

The simplest fix (IMO) would be to up the damage per pellet to at least 1.2 instead of 1.0.

The most likely fix, if we ever get one, would probably be slightly reduced spread. Or, more likely, just quirk the crap out of mechs that have LBX stock and never touch the weapon's stats again...


If I had things my way, I would try to differentiate IS and Clan LBX by making the IS ones do more damage per pellet while having the Clan ones have a noticeably tighter spread. That would give the IS ones the role of brawling/critting, while the Clan version would be better at moderate ranges.

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[Spheroid]

The fix is a higher crit chance for buckshot and a solid slug option with the cooldown sufficiently longer to make the AC-10 a better choice in situations where you are not critting.

They could also up the velocity to allow for the longer range the LBX was known for. Again at the cost of cooldown as a balancing mechanism. I would also give the AC-10 slightly more hitpoints since it a heavier weapon.

Edited by Spheroid, 30 March 2015 - 07:56 AM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

The fix is implementing alternate fire modes, like they are supposed to have (make the alternate fire mode streamed burst, like Clan Autocannons, so the IS AC10 still has a reason to exist).

[Hit the Deck]

Much faster speed and less pellet drop, though they go hand in hand.

[Mahpsy]

But then there is the issues with the lbx 2. It's on the list for being terrible but how can this pocket shoty be effective.

[FupDup]

Ragingdemon, on 30 March 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

But then there is the issues with the lbx 2. It's on the list for being terrible but how can this pocket shoty be effective.

For starters, it needs its projectile speed brought up from 1330 to 2000, like every other class 2 AC. I don't know how they were able to overlook something that drastic for so long.

Also, tighter spread for it specifically and then whatever other changes we make to all other LBX's as a whole.


Part of the issue here is also just inheriting the innate problems of being a class 2 AC, which hits any AC unlucky enough to have the number "2" in its name. All class 2 ACs need some kind of helpin' to make them worth their weight really.

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[MadMaxMKII]

i like the lb 10x together with srm or pulse laser very much. the orion M is the best brawler I have, the lb 10x quirks on this mech are insane^^

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

FupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

The simplest fix (IMO) would be to up the damage per pellet to at least 1.2 instead of 1.0.

The most likely fix, if we ever get one, would probably be slightly reduced spread. Or, more likely, just quirk the crap out of mechs that have LBX stock and never touch the weapon's stats again...


If I had things my way, I would try to differentiate IS and Clan LBX by making the IS ones do more damage per pellet while having the Clan ones have a noticeably tighter spread. That would give the IS ones the role of brawling/critting, while the Clan version would be better at moderate ranges.

I've been promoting damage-per-pellet tweaks for years now (maybe even literally years, actually).

As for your suggestion about IS v Clan via damage/spread differentiation, it's promising, and I'd like to see it tried.

[KraftySOT]

I think it just needs tighter spread. Damage is fine.

Shotgun effects in every video game ever are terrible. I have no idea why developers insist on making the spread so large.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ragingdemon, on 30 March 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

So as we all know lbx weapons are a bit mehhh. What dose everyone think this weapons roll should be? a up close shotgun of doom? a long range mech shaking support weapon?( like ac2 and 5 in the past). What can make them unique and have a solid place in the game?

I totally dig the canister shot idea someone proposed. Instead of a shotty, which kinda doesn't make sense, have it fire a solid projectile which then detonate via proximity fuse like 10-20 meters from the enemy mech (HSR should be able to handle this, as the whole point of it is to know where things are supposed to be), spreading the sub-munitions into the current CoF.

The LB-X is supposed to have LONGER range than the AC10, which is one of the number one reasons it fails in the shotgun version, because in TT, one could conceivably land all 10 sub-munition on target 540 meters.

To balance it vs the AC/10, instead of outright obsoleting it, leave it's current rate of fire alone, and damage and heat, and simply extend the range to where it should be. As a further "balancer" for being cooler, and lighter, whereas most ballistics can hit at 3x their range, have the canister detonate when it hits 540 and follow the current CoF mechanics shown. This gives it half or less the theoretical maximum range of the AC/10, and yet vastly increases it's usefulness and allows it to fulfill most of it's TT functions.

I'm pretty sure we will NEVER see alternate munition capability, but this gives it at least some of the usefulness back, and should be comparably easy to implement, whereas most other proposals still leave it ridiculously range nerfed from it;s intended form.

And since Paul likes his chalkboard so much, to make sure this is EASY to understand, like Heat Escalation.....



anyhow, not going to happen, but it would make them unique and useful

[Mahpsy]

FupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

For starters, it needs its projectile speed brought up from 1330 to 2000, like every other class 2 AC. I don't know how they were able to overlook something that drastic for so long.

Also, tighter spread for it specifically and then whatever other changes we make to all other LBX's as a whole.


Part of the issue here is also just inheriting the innate problems of being a class 2 AC, which hits any AC unlucky enough to have the number "2" in its name. All class 2 ACs need some kind of helpin' to make them worth their weight really.

I like it, but I think the game needs to incorporate more, hey this weapon isnt really to kill but it sure will make things difficult when your aiming or piloting in general. *cough flamer cough*

[KraftySOT]

You could just reduce the spread, would have the same effect at a distance, without a complicated system that I doubt PGI could/would implement. Canister is way cool tho.

Its the spread.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 30 March 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

You could just reduce the spread, would have the same effect at a distance, without a complicated system that I doubt PGI could/would implement. Canister is way cool tho.

Its the spread.

to achieve a truly useful spread at the long ranges it's supposed to be useful at, it would essentially be a single projectile out past 300 meters. Very good chance it would end up obsoleting the ac10

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

to achieve a truly useful spread at the long ranges it's supposed to be useful at, it would essentially be a single projectile out past 300 meters. Very good chance it would end up obsoleting the ac10

Shouldnt it though? I mean outside of the mechs its quirked for on, those will still be happier with an AC10. On a build quirked for neither, the LB should be the obvious choice.

That way you actually have a fairly even number of people using both of them.

Ideally, of course, it should be an ammo related thing, not a firing platform related thing. Which depends on the situation. Alpine, the LB isnt nearly as useful, on Rivercity, its far more useful.

Id sooner suggest an 'ammo toggle' so you can switch between LB and AC shot.

Then I can begin my "Thunder LRM' campaign in earnest.

Edited by KraftySOT, 30 March 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 30 March 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Shouldnt it though? I mean outside of the mechs its quirked for on, those will still be happier with an AC10. On a build quirked for neither, the LB should be the obvious choice.

That way you actually have a fairly even number of people using both of them.

Ideally, of course, it should be an ammo related thing, not a firing platform related thing. Which depends on the situation. Alpine, the LB isnt nearly as useful, on Rivercity, its far more useful.

Id sooner suggest an 'ammo toggle' so you can switch between LB and AC shot.

Then I can begin my "Thunder LRM' campaign in earnest.

and that toggle wont happen specifically because it obsoletes the ac10 (and because PGI apparently can't figure out how to make it work)

Only way I want the toggle is for the AC10 "slug" on the LB-X to be less efficient. Slightly slower, slightly less range and slightly less damage. Give me an 800-805 m/s, 8-5 damage slug with a range of 375-400 (750-800), and remove the second range bracket from the cluster round, while increasing it's RoF, and I might be cool with a toggle version.

As is, not cool with one weapon obsoleting another, which the LB didi in TT (until they came up with really lame "specialty ammo")

[KraftySOT]

Yeah thats what I was thinking, you still have the primary, and that works better in that mount, but you have the option of the other one situationally at a malus.

And yeah thats what I was thinking, in the TT it goes obsolete, so why not here? Theres still gonna be some mech that with quirks, its better to have the AC10 than the LB, even with the toggle. Take the Urbie coming out for example, if it gets low ballistics family but high ac10 quirks, no LB or toggle will convince anyone to take that over the AC10. AC10 hunchy is another example, tho i think it could use a little buff since its not used very much.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 30 March 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yeah thats what I was thinking, you still have the primary, and that works better in that mount, but you have the option of the other one situationally at a malus.

And yeah thats what I was thinking, in the TT it goes obsolete, so why not here? Theres still gonna be some mech that with quirks, its better to have the AC10 than the LB, even with the toggle. Take the Urbie coming out for example, if it gets low ballistics family but high ac10 quirks, no LB or toggle will convince anyone to take that over the AC10. AC10 hunchy is another example, tho i think it could use a little buff since its not used very much.

because it was a bad idea, and poor implementation in TT?

And because we are already WAY too dependant on quirks. Like a bunch of crackwhores waiting for a fix, lol.

Not when here are ways to make both work, and add variety.

[KraftySOT]

Why switch out with the LB, when youre going to lose 25% range and rate of fire that you would have had with the AC10, even if the LB slugs are a toggle, its still lost those quirks, since its an LB mount and not an AC10 mount (which is silly, but that wont change, if for no other reason that what were talking about now)

Id love to see the LB always be the best 10 class AC to put on something where it has no ballistics quirks, but see the AC10 still around on its iconic chassis with good specific quirks. Then you get LBs and ACs all over the place. Instead of just one or the other until one or the other is nerfed again.

Bishop Steiner, on 30 March 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

because it was a bad idea, and poor implementation in TT?

And because we are already WAY too dependant on quirks. Like a bunch of crackwhores waiting for a fix, lol.

Not when here are ways to make both work, and add variety.

Very fair point. Im just operating under the impression that quirks will never go anywhere, and will only get worse. (more prolific, more of them) Trying to think within the box, since outside of the box gets you no where.

Edited by KraftySOT, 30 March 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

to achieve a truly useful spread at the long ranges it's supposed to be useful at, it would essentially be a single projectile out past 300 meters. Very good chance it would end up obsoleting the ac10

Someone making this game mentioned faster projectile speeds and im all for it. AC's are under used for battle mechs and omni mechs.

The projectile speeds of all auto cannons improved to a point where auto cannons are at least nearly as usefull as energy may be a good start. So basically a small increase.

For the LBX-10, it just isnt as good as any other AC basically, even the AC 2, since the ac 2 is going to hit and do some damage, is way lighter etc. The LBX- 10 needs some small improvement.