359 replies to this topic

[Thom Frankfurt]

Ancalagon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

The Clans fought bravely, the Clans fought valiantly, the Clans fought honourably. And the Clans failed.

Nice Game of Thrones refrence.

This is how I see it....

The Clans were steamrolling the IS. It was some random mortally wounded FRR pilot that crashed into the Jumpship Direwolf kamakaze style and killed the ilKhan. The Clans then pulled back to the homeworlds to elect a new Ilkhan, during this time Presentor Martial Focht did his homework and found critical weakness' in the Clans way of war.

He then gave them (the Clans) a harsh lesson in how badass Spheroids can be.

Edited by Thom Frankfurt, 07 July 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Gremlich Johns, on 07 July 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would not agree. CBS was the victim of poor writing. If you read any of the NBT RP that we did, we were well on the way to re-writing everything about CBS, after about 3057..

I was not disagreeing with your point Gremlich. I was simply looking forward to your reply to his statements. It was more of a "Oh it's on now!" reaction. Especially when he said stuff like:

Quote

The super-isolationist Clan that doesn't even show up to Grand Council meetings in person is going to be leading the invasion and establishing a new Star League?

I was expecting something like that to get your blood up & was merely looking forward to the aftermath.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 07 July 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[CaveMan]

Latriam, on 07 July 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

a few problems with this posters history. One the clans lost a lot of non military tech. They knew a lot about a military type planet and very little about the others so thinking they knew "pirate jump points"(thats what unhabitated system jump points are called)Anyways the clans sent "wolf's dragoons" into the inner sphere to spy on them just so they could learn more intel on successor lords and how they fought. The clans knew very little about specicifics of tactical warfare. also honor demanded that the whole inner sphere be retaken and "cleansed" or "absorbed" depending on if you are a crusader or a warden. The clans fell mostly to trickery and partially due to their own infighting between the crusaders and the wardens.

1) I was talking about a complete rewrite of the Clans. Including dispensing with some of the more bizarre concepts like the Clans abandoning non-military technologies, and having completely childish ideas of how to fight a war.

The way the Clans were originally written, their way of life was unsustainable, their numbers entirely too small, and the invasion would have inevitably burnt itself out not long after passing Tukayyid even if there had been no battle there. All the IS would have needed do was launch an envelopment attack on the rear of the invasion corridor where it was least defended, and the Clan front would have rolled up, leaving the invaders trapped in Rasalhague territory with no reinforcements. Writers handed them the idi0t ball from day one.

2) You don't need pirate jump points to jump into empty space between star systems. Interstellar space is collossally big and empty. It makes the empty space within a star system look positively crowded by comparison. Standard star charts would have been more than sufficient. And since the Clans have lithium-fusion battery tech, they don't even need to worry about the lack of stars to use for recharging.

[Calon Farstar]

Two things: Guerrilla Tactics, and Supply Lines. The IS had them and the Clans did not.

Same way the Colonists were able to defeat the better armed, better trained, British forces...

[Bobfrombobtown]

Clans had a different style of waging war than the Inner Sphere. And then this happened.

[Alex Wolfe]

Simple: the need to keep the relative status quo of the Inner Sphere to keep the franchise "alive".

If the Clans steamrolled the Inner Sphere, there would be neither Inner Sphere (subjugated) nor Clans (losing their "technologically superior invaders" identity) as we know them. Too risky to just kill off all your factions from a business standpoint, I guess.

It's the same reason why the Federated Commonweath had to break (consolidation of power marginalizing other factions, blurring of lines between Davion and Steiner) and Jihad had to fail. Status quo and an ongoing stalemate/power struggle is the game systems' continuity's best "friend".

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 07 July 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[lonewolfsx]

Buck Rogers, on 01 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Comstar was like "Looks like the inner sphere is doomed 'cause we don't have a secret army of Star League fresh battlemechs or the trained pilots to drive them. Comstar would never hide such a huge secret from the rest of the Inner Sphere. LOL just kidding."

Post of the year right there!

and...

John Kerensky, on 01 July 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Also they were vastly out numbered. Even so, they could probably have cut much more deeply into the Inner Sphere probably conquered the whole shebang (or at least up to Terra) if not for the Deus Ex Machina that is the Great Refusal of Tukayyid (which shouldn't have even happened, since those who declared it were not of the Clans, and thus had no right initiating such a trial).

EDIT: My mistake; it was a Trial of Possession (for Terra), which I guarantee you the IS would not have honored had they lost.

Exactly right about how the IS had no right to declare that trial of refusal, the clans should never have honored it. Ridiculous mistake, I guess they were too caught up in their own pride, never expected to lose that trial. IS would never have honored such a thing as you said.

Though it is true the clanners were already dividing by then, not too much longer and the whole Nova Cat betrayal of Smoke Jaguar plus Ghost Bear weirdly melding with the FRR and such. Stuff gets weird in Battletech around 3055 and on... I like ~3050 much better, or if they'd make a game or books pertaining specifically to the clans 3000-3049, other than the "Twilight of the Clans" series, which was awesome but a little later in the timeline than I want to hear about. I feel like there's very little info on the clans prior to 3049, except some tidbits about the Timberwolf being made in 2800s or something along those lines.

Edited by lonewolfsx, 07 July 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

OK OK I am am seeing a lot of good points but also a lot of hyperbole attributed to the IS fanboys.

Let us stick to the facts.

1. This was not a whole-scale invasion. What do I mean by that?

a. Not all the Clans were involved. This would be a totally different picture if Operation: Revival was executed the same way as Operation: Klondike i.e. ALL Clans participated with specific targets designed to pacify EVERY world.

b. Not all of the IS was directly (landmine) involved.

2. The Clans have a model for fighting. The IS has theirs. The IS calls the Clan way of fighting "childish" & the Clans in turn call the IS way "barbaric".

What really irked me is that the IS fanboys never got that the Clans were a product, lower down the line yes but still a product, of the IS. They were shaped by a man who had seen the horrors of war firsthand as a child. As quoted on Pg.18 of the Wolf Clan Sourcebook:

Quote

Nicholas was determined that civil war would not claim his new society. Instead of banning warfare, which he considered part of human nature, he created controlled conflicts through regulations and rituals.

To put it in context, think of someone who had witnessed the Holocaust & that this someone actually had the power to change things. This person says to himself "NEVER AGAIN!", then proceeds to implement & enforce policies to prevent any more atrocities from being committed. Somewhere at sometime, somebody is going to **** somebody else off with their words, their actions or both. Fights will break out. Cool. You can fight, just follow these guidelines. Nicholas did this to protect his people.There will be arguments for possessions, be it resources, planets, raw materials etc. You two disagree on who XYZ belongs to? Cool. Have at it, just keep these rules in mind when you throw down.

Kingdoms of old settled disputes this way. Some famous examples, the first battle in Troy where Agamemnon basically says instead of having the both armies decimate each other, have a duel. One warrior against one warrior, with the victor getting what he wished for. No civilian casualties, no looting or pillaging, no towns & settlements destroyed. The farmers, bakers, butchers & fishermen have nothing to worry about. Two warriors settle the matter.

http://www.youtube.c...U02T0fU#t=2m06s

A classic example (I mean classic literally here as you younger people would have no idea what I speak of) is El Cid starring Charlton Heston where King Ramiro challenges King Ferdinand to a Trial of Possession for Calahorra:

http://www.youtube.c...zoEeNeE#t=7m15s

Dispute=>scaled down battle=>dispute resolved=>everybody goes back to what they were doing

3. Clansmen, though superior warriors (landmine), are bureaucrats at heart. What do I mean by that? They are ruled & run by protocol, policies, procedure & rituals. Natasha Kerensky noted this with here famous quote:

Quote

Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about.

Clansmen are drilled in, when A happens, you do B. There are numerous reports of Clansmen either not being able to adapt to a situation or catching their ***** to do so.The Year of Peace was the turning point in the invasion (landmine). The best description of this is on Pg.41 of the Wolf Clan Sourcebook:

Quote

Then Khan Perigard Zalman of Clan Steel Viper pointed out the most crucial matter facing them. Without the ilKhan to arbitrate disputes and guide the invasion, the Clans were in danger of losing what precious little cooperation and unity they had achieved. They must choose a new ilKhan, but that required consultation with the Bloodnamed of all the Clans. The Khans and the Bloodnamed warriors of the five invading Clans would have to return to Strana Mechty to convene a Grand Council to elect a new leader.

Really? They HAD to go back to Strana Mechty? They had Comstar (Space AT&T) serving as their administrative arm, who by the way had a stranglehold on the HPGs, but they HAD to go back? I mean we know they were in contact with the Kerensky Cluster so why not just make a long distance call home?


(breaking from proper clan speak just for some laughs)

Quote

*ring ring*
"Home Clans"
"Invading Clans here."
"Wassup man"
"Yo the ilKhan got smoked!"
"Word?"
"Yeah son. Some Rasalhague pilot in a Shilone. Tell Comstar to set up some voting booths. Get our best techs to do the heavy lifting to minimize any tampering or defective machines."
"Aight we on it."
"Cool"

Home Clans converge on Strana Mechty, Invading Clans converge on some planet in the IS preferably out of the way. Election Day, everybody does what they have to do. ilKhan selected. Proceed with invasion.


I feel the Clans, plot-wise were not wrtitten as well as they could have been.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 07 July 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Calon Farstar, on 07 July 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Two things: Guerrilla Tactics, and Supply Lines. The IS had them and the Clans did not.

Same way the Colonists were able to defeat the better armed, better trained, British forces...

Nicely put.

[Rejarial Galatan]

had the warden clans not caused the under bid at Tukayyid the clans would not have lost

[Calon Farstar]

Thom Frankfurt, on 07 July 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Nicely put.

Thanks!

[Jad Ivask]

Jaroth Winson, on 07 July 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

OK OK I am am seeing a lot of good points but also a lot of hyperbole attributed to the IS fanboys.

The level of hypocrisy in this sentence alone is delicious.

The clans -even united- might have been able to drive all the way to Terra, even with ComStar pulling an Army out of their colon. But they sure as hell aren't holding it, or any other planet they overcome early on. It is simply a matter of numbers and capacity. Sure, it may take four IS mechs to take down a single clanner, but unlike the Clans, the IS has both the numbers and the production capacity (and the sheer bloody mindedness) to send in eight mechs just to make sure.

Congratulations. You Spartan Way warrior society has stupendously capable warriors fighting to uphold their greatest ideals. Too bad the enemy your neo-tribal space nazis* (I will forever love that term and make use of it now) outnumbers your ubermensch more than ten to one.

Meat wins. The Clans don't have enough of it. They would have made one hell of a big dent, but their war was doomed. And even better, the IS would have recovered it's population far faster, rebuilt it's forces, and launched a riposte into Clanner territory before the clan Spartan Ways could have recouped even a single combat devision. The sea of "inferior mechs and freebirth filth pilots" now get to crash against clan forces on their own turf, whereupon the already strained clanner production and population bases will be either captured or destroyed.

Clan warriors may be "Blooded" but they can't breathe it, while the IS have more than enough stored up to drown every clanner in existence. It's attrition, the most basic and brutal form of warfare, and your precious clans don't stand a chance against it.

Yes it's barbaric. But barbarians win. Principled powers end up fighting massive low-level insurgencies for decades on end before the slow bleeding out drives them off. The solution is as straightforward as it is distasteful, but the IS will do it while the Clanners whine and moan about honor, conduct and ritual.

War is hell.

Edited by Jad Ivask, 07 July 2012 - 08:03 PM.

[Angelon LightBringer]

When you talk about things like this think of the american civil war. The Inner sphere had numbers and manufacturing like the north but the clans had the generals and technology. Also the clans honor got in the way so when the inner sphere used Mercs that really changed things since Mercs fight in way the are considered unhonorable.

[Stexe]

The same reason the British didn't win the war against America and why USA lost the Vietnam war despite having more troops, better technology, and surprise on their side.

The home field advantage is huge -- supply lines are stronger the closer to your center. Plus, when you're fighting on your own terrain you know it better than the enemy. You can take advantage of that and pull ahead. When your home and family is on the line you fight a lot harder than if you're just attacking the enemy. The Clans might have had a huge boulder to throw at the Inner Sphere, but they were fighting an uphill battle the entire time. Oh, and the Inner Sphere adapted -- Clans were too structured and set in their ways to combat an ever evolving enemy.

EDIT: By the way, I'm no way an Inner Sphere fan boy. I much prefer the Clan's advantaged technology and Mech design. Clan Star Adder and Clan Nova Wolf all the way. Just saying what happens to be the truth.

Edited by Stexe, 07 July 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I'm guessing they were simply outnumbered, allowing the IS to win through attrition and adaptation. The Clans also fight each other as much as the Inner Sphere does. 2 different Clans don't get along any better than different Houses.

[BlackAbbot]

Forget the American civil war.

Think about Goonswarm vs BoB.

BoB had bigger, better ships, more resources and CCP giving them freebies under the table.

Goonswarm had the EVE equivalent of a million Urbies and troll rage.

[Xytaglyph]

LunarWind, on 01 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Numbers.
As I understand it, the clans live further from the galactic center on less hospitible planets which cannot sustain massive populations.

I would guess that the Inner Sphere has greater numbers of pilots as well as vast amounts of natural resources and an industrial infrastructure to exploit them.

As a point of reference, you ever hear of the Imperial Guard from Warhammer 40K?
They have the worst troops, the worst equipment, and never surprise anyone, ever.
They also outnumber just about everyone else by at least 10 to 1. Sometimes more like 1,000 to one.

I don't care how well you aim your gun, or how great your gun is, or how long you had to prepare the gun to shoot me.
You've got X number of bullets and I've got X+2 friends.

more like 10X friends in this case lol

[Starne]

Short version:

The Clans underestimated the IS forces they would be facing(1), the invading Clans were seriously outnumbered, Clan "Military" "Tactics" were poorly suited for fighting an actual war(2), the IS had better Aerospace pilots(3), and last but not least, the IS had the logistical advantage, as stated above(4).

Long version:

1: The Clans more or less ignored what little intel they had on the IS. They went in expecting small numbers of under-equipped, unskilled enemies, and they can came face-to-face with scores of battle-hardened, often fanatical enemies with access to almost Star League-level Tech. Say what you will about the Succession Wars, they did a good job of honing the armies of the Inner Sphere.

2: I'll take a lot of flak from the Clan Fanboys for saying this, but it's a fact. The Clan idea of "War" is essentially a glorified gladiatorial match with things wagered. Likewise, Clan troops are glorified gladiators. Don't get me wrong, Clan society produces half-decent warriors, but it produces absolutely horrible soldiers, and the "Tacticians" and "Commanders" produced are even worse. There's an old axiom; "If you're fighting fair, you aren't fighting to win." . Armed conflict is a terrible thing, and most attempts to sanitize it or salve your own guilty conscience will only drag it out and make it worse. The faster the war is over, the faster the survivors can go home. If that means using "Dirty tactics" or "Cheating", so be it.

3: See battle of Radstadt. Outnumbered and and outgunned, Rasalhagian Aerospace pilots beat the tar out of the Clan fleet, and even managed to kill the ilKhan. And before anyone says "Oh, the Rasalhagians were defeated at Radstadt!", WRONG. The Elected Prince escaped, and the Rasalhagians inflicted disproportionate casualties and damage on the Clan fleet, and the death of Leo Showers stalled the Clan advance for months. Yes, the Flying Drakons were wiped out, but that's war.

4: Wars are won by logistics. In this case, any Clan reinforcements and almost all of their supplies had to come all the way from the Clan homeworlds. In any situation, IS reinforcements and replacements were at most a few jumps away, Clan units had to wait months for their own. "But Starne, Clan hardware was clearly superior!" you say. In the strictest sense, yes. But what good is that fancy Tech if it breaks down and you have to wait for weeks or maybe even months to get it fixed? Another side to the technical issue is that not only did the IS forces have no qualms about salvaging Clan Tech, they were practically giddy at the chance, and generations of salvaging and making-do made them very, very good at it. Clanners? A whole 'nother story. Not only would the vast majority of Clan warriors be sickened by the very idea of going into battle with IS equipment, in many cases, it's not really an option. I highly doubt you could scavenge parts for that fancy "Timberwolf"(MadCat) off of a Marauder or Catapult.

Frankly, I doubt that even if all 19 Clans had fully mobilized their "Toumans", and attacked the IS all at once that they would've fared any better in the long run. The further they pushed into the Inner Sphere, the stiffer resistance would've gotten. By the time they reached Terra, they would've been facing resistance that would put religious fanatics to shame. Even worse for the Clans, if they all sent the bulk of their forces to the Inner Sphere like that, I have little doubt they would've had lots of slave revolts on their hands(You're lying to yourself if you think the "Lower Castes" of Clan Society are anything but slaves to the warrior caste) on the homeworlds.

In the end, the Clans were doomed, no matter what they did, no matter what happened. Any half-attempts at invasion of the IS(what they did in canon) were doomed to failure. Any all-out assaults on the IS were doomed to failure. And even if the Clans had stayed-put, I have little doubt that within a few centuries, the IS would've come to them, and I highly doubt that would've ended well for the Clans.

Edited by Starne, 07 July 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

boiling it down further: Clans supply line was obscenely long. The IS supply line was not. They could also send in reenforcements even faster than the clans could.

[Jad Ivask]

Starne, on 07 July 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Frankly, I doubt that even if all 19 Clans had fully mobilized their "Toumans", and attacked the IS all at once that they would've fared any better in the long run. The further they pushed into the Inner Sphere, the stiffer resistance would've gotten. By the time they reached Terra, they would've been facing resistance that would put religious fanatics to shame.

It should be noted that by Tukkayyid the majority of FedCom units hadn't even reached the front yet. The Davions were still mobilizing. And more to the point the entire Capellaen Confederation hadn't even seen action yet.

The clans being stopped at Tukkayyid was a mercy.