50 replies to this topic

[Peanuckle]

So I'm poking around with my mech, checking out different weapon loadouts, and I'm not too sure what I want to put in the ballistics slot. The AC weapons seem to improve in damage per ton as you increase in rating: An AC10 does 10 damage and weighs less than two AC5. But it also fires more slowly and has less range.

What would you say is the optimal AC? Is it worth the extra space to use two AC5 and chain-fire them? Should I strip everything down and slap an AC20 in there and pray I don't catch a facefull of gauss? Is running around with a bunch of AC2 only good for a laugh?

[0rionsbane]

the way i see it its ac 5/20 or guass. ac 5 has great sustained damage at a lower weight so it goes with a lot of builds as a heat efficient weapon, alternatives to it are lbx 10 and ac 10 which both have drawbacks (either weight or heat or in the lbx case spread) the ac 20 is the best for dps and it really takes the place of the ac 10 there but not for heat it generates a fair amount of heat. and guass is as usual the most expensive weight wise but the best for trading fire at range. ac 5 has ultra and regular and that dose help as you can put an ultra on a burst damage build and really chew into something or a regular 5 on a support fire mech and save that ton.

Edited by 0rionsbane, 09 April 2015 - 07:39 PM.

[Modo44]

UAC5 and AC20. Anything AC or UAC in between is also OK. One or two AC20s or multiple UAC5s are deadly once you have target leading down. The projectiles drop along an arc, and travel time is considerable. Use 2-4 tons of ammo per gun depending on how much you have left at the end of a match. You want to run out completely in long matches.

The Gauss Rifle is also very deadly, but you have to protect it, and get used to the firing delay mechanic. This gun can explode violently when hit, so it is a hazard to your mech. To shoot, you hold fire for a second, then release -- and that is where you actually shoot.

Do not use shotguns (LB-whatever) because they spread damage which means the enemy can avoid losing critical components easily. Do not use AC2s because they have terrible DPS. Small dakka looks good, but does next to no damage. In its current state, the AC2 is only good if you want to make people laugh.

[Mad Ox]

Depends on the application and pilot. Immediate problem with all ballistics are Tonnage they use alot per gun.

Generally i try and fill the slots with the most I can as 2 of 1 weapon system will always be more deadly then the following sizes.

For example IS AC2 x2 = 5.56 DPS while 1 AC5 is 3.01 DPS, 1 AC10 is 4 dps and AC20 is 5 dps. Killer here is Tonnage again going with 2 AC2 and 1 ton of ammo for each your at 14 tons... same as AC10 with 2 tons of ammo but the 2xAC2 still outputs more damage per second.

Really comes down to everyone is going to find a niche that they like best. I tend to like the AC20 step out fast fire then get behind cover... sure give up range but more often then not find it has what I need to do the job. But I use all AC/s each has advantages based on mech there going into. Standard Ultra and LBX each have nasty uses.

Only gun I rarely use is Gauss, dont get me wrong its a very powerful weapon used right and seen some amazing games where it was incredible. But people go internal on where its housed its basically guaranteed to explode.and more times then not that explosion wrecks to many things even being careful with it. Basically way to much risk vs reward for me after keeping track of how often it hosed me I stopped using it.

Heck running the Gargoyle Prime stock omnipods ended up going with 2 LBX2 2 SRM6 and 1 ERML... sounds silly but its the most efficient use of that configuration I have tried based on tonnage available

Edited by Mad Ox, 10 April 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Ac 15

bets heat ratio, best range, best projectile speed.

at least as long as you ignore specific IS chassis and their quirks.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 April 2015 - 06:44 AM.

[z MadButcher z]

Don't forget mech quirks when you select a ballistic weapon. For example the Wolverine-6R with 2 AC5s and a huge amount of ammo has an insane fire rate especially if you get the level 5 cooldown module. In the end I would say the AC5 is the best because it generates basically no heat, has good range, and shoots fairly quickly which gives you the added bonus of screen shake which can disorient an enemy. But everything depends on tonnage available and what range you plan to use your mech at.

[990Dreams]

AC/2:

• Pros: Rapid fire
  
• Cons: High heat, low damage

AC/5:

• Pros: Decent firing rate, not too hot
  
• Cons: Medium damage

AC/10:

• Pros: Good firing rate for damage, not very hot
  
• Cons: Heavy

AC/20:

• Pros: Highest damage of any AC
  
• Cons: Hot, big, heavy, slow

Inner Sphere UAC/5:

• Pros: 5 damage per shot, rapid fire, relatively low heat
  
• Cons: Jams frequently and stops firing for a bit

Clan UACs:

• Pros: Multi-projectile, rapid fire firing produces a lot of screenshake
  
• Cons: Low damage per projectile, jams

LB-X ACs (Clan and Inner Sphere):

• Pros: Spread allows good chance of hitting, also has a critical hit chance, good for brawling
  
• Cons: Low damage per projectile, low damage at long range

Edited by DavidHurricane, 10 April 2015 - 06:47 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Gonna expand David's table. My additions in bold, his originals in normal type.

AC/2:

• Pros: Rapid fire, extreme range, very distracting to target, high travel speed.
  
• Cons: High heat, low damage when used for short bursts of fire, very tonnage/hardpoint expensive.

AC/5:

• Pros: Decent firing rate, not too hot, good range.
  
• Cons: Medium damage, very tonnage expensive, cannot fit more than two per arm or three per torso no matter what.

AC/10:

• Pros: Good firing rate for damage, not very hot, concentrated damage, good for peeking/single-shot.
  
• Cons: Heavy, slightly hard on critical hit slots (cannot fit multiple in one location no matter what).

AC/20:

• Pros: Highest damage of any AC, capable of knocking out enemy AC/20 with a single shot to internals at times, very strong for single-shot or peek-firing.
  
• Cons: Hot (for ballistics), big (Only one per location ever and doesn't fit in many arms), heavy, slow (both in projectile speed and refire rate), very unfriendly to using multiple at once (look up Ghost Heat).

Inner Sphere UAC/5:

• Pros: 5 damage per shot, rapid fire, relatively low heat, very good burst fire damage when you use the ability to shoot again before reload (~3-4 seconds of fire is optimal)
  
• Cons: Jams frequently and stops firing for a bit which makes it worse for extended fire than a standard AC/5.

C-AC/2:

• Pros: Light and easy to fit in singles, constant stream of shells for annoyance factor, decent damage for extended engagements, extreme range, fast shell travel.
  
• Cons: Slightly hot for ballistics due to refire rate, very space/tonnage expensive in multiples compared to other Clan weapons, weak damage when used for peeking/single-shot, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

C-AC/5:

• Pros: Very space-efficient even for Clan ballistics, low heat, good damage for extended engagements, long range, good shell travel.
  
• Cons: Slightly tonnage intensive in multiples compared to other Clan weapons, fires three 1.66 damage shells making concentrated damage difficult, hard to fit in some omni-pods, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

C-AC/10:

• Pros: Low heat, good middle-ground weapon for mixed use between peeking and extended combat.
  
• Cons: Fires four 2.5 damage shells making concentrated damage difficult, sometimes won't fit in components even when tonnage allows (dependent on 'mech), prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

C-AC/20:

• Pros: Good for very short engagements or peeking, high damage per trigger-pull.
  
• Cons: Very heavy, fires five 4-damage shells making concentrated damage difficult, very large (often won't fit in torsos), prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal), slow-firing, slow shell travel speed, short range.

Clan UAC/2:

• Pros: Very rapid maximum fire rate, less space-intensive than C-AC or C-LB-X equivalent, good for 2-3 seconds of burst fire, smallest individually significant Clan ballistic, very long range, fast shell travel.
  
• Cons: Hotter than other Clan 2-class ACs, consumes ammo very quickly, less damage over time than C-AC/2 after 2-3 seconds due to jamming (if Ultra refire is used), very hot at full fire rate, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

Clan UAC/5:

• Pros: Very space efficient, excellent for 3-4 seconds of burst fire, long range, good shell travel speed, smaller than other Clan 5-class ACs.
  
• Cons: Hotter than other Clan 5-class ACs, consumes ammo quickly, less damage over time than C-AC/5 after 3-4 seconds due to jamming (if Ultra refire is used), each 'shot' is three 1.66 damage shells so focused damage is difficult, tonnage-intensive in multiples, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

Clan UAC/10:

• Pros: Fairly space efficient for an autocannon, good heat/damage ratio, Ultra refire-with-jamchance lets you select between firing for burst damage or extended combat, smaller than other Clan 10-class ACs.
  
• Cons: Hotter than other Clan 10-class ACs, consumes ammo quickly when fired at Ultra speeds, very tonnage-intensive, each 'shot' is four 2.5 damage shells so focused damage is difficult, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

Clan UAC/20

• Pros: Ultra-firing makes this the single most damaging weapon in the game over short periods of time, Ultra-firing jam delay is small compared to base refire rate and therefore not as inconvenient, smaller than other Clan 20-class ACs.
  
• Cons: Hotter than other Clan 20-class ACs, ultra refire-with-jamchance that triggers before firing the second shot severely cripples the burst you planned, each 'shot' is five 4-damage shells so focused damage is difficult, very hot in multiples, slow base refire rate, slow shell travel speed, short range, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

LB-X ACs


LB-10X (Inner Sphere)

• Pros: Very high critical rate for destroying equipment and dealing extra damage to exposed internals, very extended maximum range, lighter, very cool-firing, small enough to fit two in a side torso, spreading 'shotgun' effect ensures hits against small targets, fast targets, and small locations on distant targets.
  
• Cons: LB-X reputation, never does full damage at extended range due to shot spreading, easily misused.

C-LB-2X

• Pros: Ludicrous range, fast fire rate, high shot travel speed.
  
• Cons: LB-X reputation, fires a 'spread' of two 1-damage pellets (rendering its incredible range as much of a liability as an advantage), very poor at burst-fire or single-shot peeking, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

C-LB-5X

• Pros: Extreme range, good fire rate, good shot travel speed.
  
• Cons: LB-X reputation, 'spread' of five 1-damage pellets is poor damage at extended ranges, poor at single-shot peeking, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

C-LB-10X

• Pros: Long range.
  
• Cons: LB-X reputation, 'spread' of ten 1-damage pellets is less effective at longer ranges, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

C-LB-20X

• Pros: High damage per shot, good for 'peeking' or other single-shot situations, for much of its range the 'shotgun' spread doesn't have significant effect.
  
• Cons: LB-X reputation, even worse at its range extremes than a C-AC/20 due to 'shotgun' spread, poor shot travel speed, poor refire rate, prevents use of Lower Arm/Hand actuators in omni arms (thus removing arm horizontal).

I would like to also highlight what I have labeled as 'LB-X reputation'.

Frankly speaking, the LB-X autocannon are a completely different weapons system than standard or Ultra autocannon and should be treated as such. They usually are not- many players want to directly substitute them as though they had the same function, which they do not. This has generated the poor reputation of the LB-X autocannon, as players attempting to use the LB-10X in particular as though it were a direct equivalent to an AC/10 have had poor experiences.

This is comparable to trying to use a claw hammer and a monkey wrench as perfect equivalents. They may both be used for fastening and unfastening things, and they may have similar weights, and they may both be one-handed tools. This does not make them tools for the exact same situations as each other, though, and anyone trying to use them as though this was the case will find themselves quickly frustrated.

LB-X autocannon are specifically good for three situations that standard autocannon are less effective for.

• A fast light 'mech when you can't draw a bead on it properly. Hitting a light 'mech that's moving quickly with a standard or ultra autocannon can be an exercise in frustration if the light pilot is able to juke and hop well- their movement becomes unpredictable as well as fast and trying to hit them with a single shell or a brief burst of shells is then as much a matter of luck as skill. LB-X autocannon sacrifice the chance of all the damage in one spot for a spread of pellets that vastly increases your chance of connecting with at least a little damage.
  
• A distant target that you don't have time to aim carefully at. Some players are good enough at snap fire that this isn't an issue, but a lot of us can't aim as quickly as we would like to. In these cases, as long as the target is actually still in range of the LB-X pellet spread, this will allow some damage to be scored where no damage would otherwise have been dealt. This is very situational and somewhat autocannon-dependent- the LB-2X doesn't have enough pellets in a spread to guarantee that damage, and the LB-20X doesn't reach far enough to be worth using in this fashion most of the time, but the LB-10X is perfect for this and the LB-5X isn't too bad at it.
  
• A nearby target with the armor stripped off a location that you don't think you can destroy completely in time. With the structure boosts to various 'mechs- most emphatically the Hunchback's shoulders, the Dragon's center torso, and the Awesome's center AND side torsos- it may not be possible to completely destroy a damaged component of a 'mech either before it can shoot you again or before it finishes ducking behind cover. In these situations, an LB-X autocannon is better than a shell-firing cannon- it inflicts more critical hit damage per shot on average and also more base damage on average to an exposed location than a standard or ultra autocannon. You can take a long shot and hope with the other autocannon, or be virtually certain of ruining weapons and other equipment with an LB-X autocannon. This can be, but is not always, vital to preventing you or your allies from taking more damage from your target, and if you're lucky, it can abruptly destroy them by causing a fatal ammunition explosion (or at least cripple them by removing the component if they have CASE installed).

The one other advantage is that LB-X autocannon run significantly cooler than their Standard and Ultra companions- although this effect is obviated for the Clans, whose 'standard' autocannon are actually LB-X autocannon using standard autocannon ammunition (stupid mean cheatyfaces).


Basically, this means that if you are going to run an LB-X autocannon, you either plan on applying it in those three situations, you plan on taking advantage of the lower heat per shot, or you plan to set up situations where the advantages of the LB-X are useful to you. If you can't do that, won't do that, or don't know how to do that, then a standard or Ultra autocannon is going to always be a better choice.

Most players either can't do, won't do, or don't know how to do. This is where the blanket declaration that LB-X autocannon are bad comes from.

I know this post is a bit long-winded, but you need to have that information before you make your decision or you may feel misled.

So now you know.

And knowing is a significant portion of the armed conflict.

-QKD-CR0

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 10 April 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[Chaotee]

Awesome post guys. Bit of a tangent question; weight wise, two AC2's = one AC10. Assuming total ammo weight remains the same, (say 3 tons) how would you rate that choice ?

[bad arcade kitty]

isn't uac the best uac?

[DemonicDonut]

Choose the AC/2's if you want longer range plinking to chip away and annoy the enemy.

Choose the AC/10 if you are going for an instant punch at closer range. 45 shots (3 tons) is pretty good as well.

[Stealth Fox]

The best AC is coming out of a Dragon making some poor sap cry and panic in fear. two AC 5s outa that bieoch and you can run your mech off of your opponents tears.

[Lily from animove]

Chaote, on 22 April 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Awesome post guys. Bit of a tangent question; weight wise, two AC2's = one AC10. Assuming total ammo weight remains the same, (say 3 tons) how would you rate that choice ?

well, AC 2 means more streamed fire, while the AC will hit a single location. But you have range as difference.
Yet when it comes to crits, the AC 10 is better, because a crit on a section where a component can blow off, WILL blow stuff off. while a Ac 2 crit or even multiple AC 2 crits do not ensure this. Because crits may not even hit the same location.
And then, Ac 2's are still hotter than the AC 10. Ok, dps on 2 AC 2's is a bit higher, but as said it will mostlikely not hit the same location. So the real and only question you truly have to answer yourself here is: Do you want to shoot stuff with an AC on a long range. Yes? go Ac2. no? go ac 10.

Edited by Lily from animove, 24 April 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[Mad Ox]

Chaote, on 22 April 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Awesome post guys. Bit of a tangent question; weight wise, two AC2's = one AC10. Assuming total ammo weight remains the same, (say 3 tons) how would you rate that choice ?

Lily hit is pretty well above. Weight really only tells a small bit of the story alot more too it. Sure AC2 will do more damage numberwise even against an AC20 (according to Smurfy an AC2 x = 5.56 dps an AC20 = 5 dps) but that doesn't tell the whole story, really it should be more you have the POTENTIAL to do more damage. But in order to do that damage you have to leave your self out in the open exposed to enemy fire, also they ahve to stay out in the open exposed to your fire. While AC10 or AC20 hit hard and you can hide while cooldown is happening. Someone doing proper peakaboo with AC10/AC20 will easily out damage someone going with AC2's.

Of course this also gets messed up even more with Clan Ultra cannons as they fire a stream of rounds. They become more like slow lasers doing damage over time. so even if you start hitting can spread the damage all over to even missing. Clan Ultra Cannons should have a Duration like lasers cuz they need to fire then time to fire, while LBX and IS Cannons fire once and reload. Exactly like PPC/ERPPC (1 boom then HIDE) vs Lasers (fiiiiiirrrrrreeeeee... done HIDE)

There is no real perfect answer just to many variables, tonnage available, range needed, other weaponry paired with, etc. I jumped in GAR-P swapped over to LBX20/10 well ended up finding out LBX2 x2 paired with 2x SRM6 works best for how I play it. So best is get out and try different builds a few times then shift things around experiment.

[bad arcade kitty]

i messed my previous post

i meant isn't uac the best ac

i mean nobody forces you to use the rapid fire but uac seems better than ac when it doesn't use it too

[Havyek]

Best AC is generally whatever the chassis is quirked for.

Other than that, UAC5, AC10/20 are nice, but so are multiple AC5s. It's depending on your chassis and available weight.

Dual AC5s do only do the same damage as an AC10, but they have a higher velocity, faster recharge and longer range.

[InspectorG]

Best AC?

15

or

40

[InspectorG]

Chaote, on 22 April 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Awesome post guys. Bit of a tangent question; weight wise, two AC2's = one AC10. Assuming total ammo weight remains the same, (say 3 tons) how would you rate that choice ?

IS AC's benefit is their pinpoint=frontloaded damage.

So, how much damage can you place at one point at one time, at what range, at what cost of facetime?

AC2 costs too much facetime, though you can rattle the hell out of newbs with it.

AC10 is 10 damage in one point for less range and cooldown but also less facetime.


3AC5, Phract/Banshee is nice because you get the AC5 rate and range but its 15 damage to one point.

2AC20 is for sure an up close weapon that runs hot, but you get 40 damage to one point. (dual gauss is similar but has different benefits/costs)

Mech and quirks will determine what ACs are best but in and of themselves, AC5 and AC20 are the choice options. AC10 if you can run 2 of them. AC2 is frowned upon by most.

[Tylerchu]

My experiences with autocannons...
Inner Sphere:
AC/2: Take at least two. It's a good peppering weapon on chainfire because it recycles so fast and has a good travel time. Thanks to removing ghost heat on the AC/2, you can keep firing these for a while. Have at least 15 more points of shorter-range alpha damage because AC/2 is more useless than an old fart (especially against lights).

AC/5: I've done 2 on a jager and 3 on ilya muromets. Chainfiring them results in a constant barrage of fire that's sure to turn off almost anyone and alpha firing them results in fast FLPPD. However, they're heavy and suck up ammo so something has to be sacrificed; I never had any extra weapons because they're long enough range that you can stay as a fire-support role.

UAC/5: Same with the AC/5 except I alpha'd and double-tapped them to take advantage of the faster firing. Even though they jam, they're still pretty ok at dishing out damage. Have three+ with no extra weapons and lots of ammo or 2 with nice amounts of backup.

AC/10: My personal favorite (even though this seems to be the not-favorite). I like it because it has a decent range, a decent recycle speed, and a decent travel time. Everything's decent, nothing outstanding or crippling. I use two of these in conjunction with four machine guns (JM6-DD) because they're good at taking off spot armor which allows the machine guns to come in during mid-endgame and eat them.

LB-X/10: This is good when paired with a higher damage pinpoint weapon, such as multiple lasers. It's not good at stripping armor but fire a few times into an exposed part and that limb is gone. I don't think it's bad but it's not worth being used as a main weapon.

AC/20: A great brawling weapon. This does fearsome damage and isn't something to be sneezed at. Unfortunately, it's only a brawling weapon. Sniping or even fire-support is out of the question because it's travel speed is abysmal and the range is just as bad. Back this up with more weapons because ammo can run fast.

I'll add clan later because I realized I need to study and eat. Remind me to do so if I don't.

[Shalune]

Chaote, on 22 April 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Awesome post guys. Bit of a tangent question; weight wise, two AC2's = one AC10. Assuming total ammo weight remains the same, (say 3 tons) how would you rate that choice ?

To be frank all AC/2s are pretty objectively bad. They are not useless. They can be effective in specific situations. They can be fun. But compared to the alternatives (ER LL or heavier ACs) they are bad.

I only skimmed the replies, but didn't see much mention of an important concept in MWO: alpha damage. So here goes.

Given the choice between two otherwise identical weapons, you always want the one that deals its damage over a shorter period of time. The ideal weapon deals all of its damage instantaneously. For a very long time this rule held such sway over the game that most mechs were dropping with PPCs, often paired with Gauss.

While these focused damage weapons are not always the most efficient in damage per weight or space, they are the most efficient tools at killing when used correctly. Mechs are killed by destroying individual components, primarily CT. So dealing damage is less important than ensuring what damage you deal is accurate.

A great example of this is LRMs. On paper they do a tremendous amount of damage for the investment, but are horrible against skilled groups because even when they hit they spread damage all over the target.

Why is laser spam the thing right now then? Well jump sniping was nerfed into the ground, clan PPC heat is garbage, and lasers are so much more efficient than the alternatives that it outweighs the loss of accuracy.

So now back to ACs. Well they are never efficient on weight, that's lasers' thing. So if you have to make the sacrifice, the only justification (aside from fun of course) is pinpoint damage which AC/2s are horrible at. As for the others:

Clan UACs: garbage except on the Dire Wolf only because it can carry so many it doesn't matter, and literally can't effectively use its free weight without ballistics.

all LBXs: mostly garbage for inaccuracy.

IS AC/5 and UAC/5: very good, fills a nice niche of being long range while notably lighter than gauss

IS AC/10: a very nice gun but too similar to AC/20 and Gauss in weight to justify without heavy quirks

IS AC/20: great because of its pinpoint burst damage