109 replies to this topic

[demoyn]

FupDup, on 25 April 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

You have me mixed up with a few other people in this thread -- people who aren't me -- who feel that a normal IS brawler is better than a normal Clan brawler. Please hang up and call the correct number next time.

It's not that a normal IS brawler is better than a normal Clan brawler. It's that this is a game of paper, rock, scissors, lizard, Spock and currently the IS brawl meta is geared to beat the Clan laser vomit meta. Once Clans switch to scissors in order to beat the IS rock, IS will move back to paper. At least that's how it's SUPPOSED to go.

[sycocys]

All I can tell you is that 1v1 I haven't found a clan mech that can out brawl my HBK's. None of them are scary at all when you are in a proper brawling mech and on even numbers.

Why? Because speed + pinpoint damage + not overheating in 5 seconds = far more awesome brawler.

If you don't pilot like a clan noob and alpha shot constantly or shoot your load off into space you are going to out brawl any pilot of equal skill in your IS brawl mechs.

[luxebo]

Bows3r, on 25 April 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Are you losing brawls to Timber Wolf's in an Atlas? You need to Learn to twist.

Twisting does nothing when you only have one leg and your CT.

I'm gonna ignore everyone else for the time being that says OMG IS is STILL BEST BRAWLER because that isn't true. L2P? Well you know what, Imma organize a test run with 12 Atlas DDC/S and 12 Timbers boating SRMs. Let's see who will win.

Heat? HEAT??? Yeah that only matters when you DON'T have cover. What kind of brawler doesn't have cover?

I'm gonna stop responding to this topic altogether till I can do this test somehow; most of my unit members are slowly leaving and I have only come back to Tukayyid finding that each and every CW match thus far I've played in is a fail due to idiots trying to outbrawl SRM Stormcrows and Timbers.

I'm also gonna ask Gman and a few other top level players to see their responses and consensuses. My unit is gonna stay away from brawling in CW, but if it really is more effective, have to see how/why, because at this point IS brawling is worse than trading shots at the longest range. I personally believe that the game is back-ass-wards since we are better at long range (same range, less heat; 4N, Grid Iron, SHD-2K, etc) but worse at mid range dps (heavy ass damage and can drop back to cover) and short range (can still drop back to cover while being far more mobile than IS mechs with potentially more survivability due to stupid Stormcrow hitboxes and having the same loadout as an assault).

If anyone responds like an idiot and say ermaigawd IS is better without any logical testing or any other thing to state then I'm not gonna respond.

Oh and Icy, I've already done that. Just waiting for the response.

[Hydrocarbon]

Chagatay, on 25 April 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Uh.....IS brawls better

In theory, YES. In practice, NO. This is because the average n00b can cook up worse builds than even a seasoned pro can. Drop a n00b with an IQ of 70 into a new account, let him earn some money to buy his own mechs, and see what he brings to the CW match.

IS: stock JR7-D, stock DRG-5N (non-champ), stock TDR-5S, and a Bore's Head because MC.

Clan: stock TBR-Prime, stock HBR-Prime, stock SCR-Prime, stock KFX-C.


OMG, IS > Clan because 25+ tons is uber! C-ERLL's will strip half the IS mechs' armor before they realize those black dots are actually just clan mechs under a spam of c-ECM, the other half will be stripped as they try to waddle into range with their STD engines, then finally cored as their SHS mechs overheat with their 2nd alpha [of mixed ballistics/srm/lrm/energy because all weapons are still bound to left-click]. Meanwhile the greatest damage to the clans will be to themselves, as the ERPPC Warhacks and Novas perform an alpha of identical weapons. Wait, the pug above didn't bring either...

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 26 April 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[luxebo]

@Hydrocarbon, this has nothing to do with brawling or not though. And if a new player drops in with no idea of how the MW universe works, he'd probably rage quit before getting to CW. If he did get to CW, it will be all the cool looking mechs, not anything else, likely stacking on different trials alongside too.

Icy Manipulator, on 25 April 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

Ask any competitive unit pilot and most if not all will downright agree that IS is the king of the brawl.

Say again? Gman has spoken.

"in general, IS has better slow brawling mechs and clans have better fast brawling mechs

since a prerequisite to brawling is that you get in range to brawl, slow brawling is only superior to fast brawling if the other team is brawling too.

as such, clans are generally more effective brawlers"

Edited by luxebo, 26 April 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[sycocys]

Stock HBK-4sp is a better brawler than most of the clan mechs 1v1.

Rigged HBK-4sp is a better brawler than all of the clan mechs 1v1 (and many times 1v2).

Being mobile, forcing them to shut down and knowing where to shoot is all up to the user, But 5ML and 2 srm4+ artemis is pinpoint 42.7 damage at 50m and will wreck any clan mech as long as you are a competent pilot.

[multisoul]

IS brawls better if the IS pilot does not wet his pants and run away when hit!
i like most jumping on an overheating DW and pumping my AC20 when he wakes up he can fire a few shots before overheating again, but in the meantime i dodge some and its 5-6 AC20 in your face, just dont wet your pants when facing clan, or dont be with a team of kindergarden pant wetters

[sycocys]

Really the biggest problem I see when dropping with other groups is that most pilots only give clanners one angle to shoot at in a "brawl".

Brawling isn't standing face to face, its kiting and gaining position with terrain and the opponents movement. If you think brawling is standing face up to a mech you are going to lose that battle 9/10 times. This is the prime reason why most people come from standard queue into CW and totally suck, so much time practicing terrible habits that they can't adjust to even a slightly higher level of play.

[KapitanJewFro]

sycocys, on 27 April 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

Really the biggest problem I see when dropping with other groups is that most pilots only give clanners one angle to shoot at in a "brawl".

Brawling isn't standing face to face, its kiting and gaining position with terrain and the opponents movement. If you think brawling is standing face up to a mech you are going to lose that battle 9/10 times. This is the prime reason why most people come from standard queue into CW and totally suck, so much time practicing terrible habits that they can't adjust to even a slightly higher level of play.

i admit i still got to work on this

[ClaymoreReIIik]

If you go ahead and compare mechs 1 for 1 the clan machine is mostly superior to its IS counterpart. CW does not compare roles 1 for 1 though.

You bring a dropdeck that is tonnage limited and consists of the mechs that you think you do best in.

The average clan dropdeck is not 2 great brawlers 2 good ranged mechs. Really often its a streak-crow (to fight off lightrushes), a hellbringer medium range laservomit (its a teamgame so ECM!), a timberwolf (because its the best mech in game and everyone looks on kills and damage) with either some SRMs and lasers or straight lasers and an ice-ferret because the tonnage was free or for generator-rushes.

There is some Variation to that theme with mist lynxes and warhawks in the mix and the occasional vulture but only very few players deviate from bringing a tool box with different tools for different jobs.

If your opposing 12 man is consisting of a mix of that you have an enemy team that will overheat terribly (because the SRM and Laservomits run really hot if the engagement outlasts 45 seconds) or consists of ice-ferrets/mist lynxes/adders/kit foxes.

I have NEVER seen a clan team consists of straight brawlers. There was always the er large and er medium guys in plenty and those builds suck close up, because they overheat badly.

The people that say IS brawls better then clans talk about 12 mechs vs 12 mechs from usual dropdecks. In that setting the sentence is true. The average dropdeck an IS team brings will outlast and outperform a clan 12 man PuG in close quarters combat.

[LordSkyKnight]

FupDup, on 25 April 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

An average IS brawler can out-brawl an average Clan long-range or mid-range build.

An average Clan brawler (SRMs, SPL, ERSL, etc.) can at the bare minimum match an average IS brawler if not surpass them.

The best clan brawlers outbrawl the best IS brawlers. lulz. Timber/Dire/Stormcrow are all silly good at any range when built correctly. Which is why the comp teams use them almost exclusively. Lol.

Edit: Before anyone *******, yes the atlas brawls better than a Dire. The dire just does everything else better.

Edited by LordSkyKnight, 27 April 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[Groans]

Icy Manipulator, on 25 April 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

Normally I don´t even post replies to posts like this, as Forum Warriors are typically the players playing the game wrong and crying to the DEVs about it.

Clan weapons have much greater ranges, but slower firing weapons (laser duration affects weapon firing speeds) that spread damage vs moving targets (again laser duration). So players have tailored their meta to this. High alpha peak-a-boo tactics, that hopefully draw enemies into a literal STAND off.

IS weapons have shorter ranges, fire faster, and are better at dealing concentrated damage. Smart players recognize this statistically and employ Medium Pulse Laser builds or a combination of Medium Laser/Large Pulse Laser builds. Stay at high speeds to spread Clan damage and concentrate on the above average sized CT of most Clan mechs...

I 2 shot storm crows in my Grasshopper 3 LPL 4 ML 1.2 heat efficiency build, Without quirks. With the godmode TBR 5SS they seem to pop even faster while they spread damage all over me like jam on toast.

Ask any competitive unit pilot and most if not all will downright agree that IS is the king of the brawl.

Sorry ForumWarrriors

This, Pretty much how I view things.

Let me explain why I think IS is losing most fights. There are way too many of us vs Clan, so when A really good clan unit drops like MS they get to fight 3 or 4 times more often then say NS. This means all the IS pugs are more often facing tougher opponents that are on comms have a plan know their mechs and are just good.

Sadly this is not a true test of balance as it favors the smaller force. We have had some really good fights this weekend so far I am loving this event but we more often face tough good opponents then pugs, no problem there if it was the same for the other side, but i dont think it is.

[luxebo]

sycocys, on 27 April 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

Really the biggest problem I see when dropping with other groups is that most pilots only give clanners one angle to shoot at in a "brawl".

Brawling isn't standing face to face, its kiting and gaining position with terrain and the opponents movement. If you think brawling is standing face up to a mech you are going to lose that battle 9/10 times. This is the prime reason why most people come from standard queue into CW and totally suck, so much time practicing terrible habits that they can't adjust to even a slightly higher level of play.

This is exactly what I had in mind, and Clan's Stormcrow and Timber can do this 10 times better than ANY attempted IS brawler. IS brawlers are better in late game/assaults (Atlas, Banshee, Stalker) against Clan assaults (but I mean cmon, Dwf brawling? That's not very effective in terms of Dwf.) The assaults that brawl are those that are directly

But when kiting/flanking is the thing of brawling then Stormcrows and Timbers will win against Thunderbolts, Victors, and Griffins. The fast striker/brawlers on each side generally favor the Timber and especially the Stormcrow due to stupid amounts of SRMs on top of insane hitboxes. Note that you should always fire in 3-2 punch. Timbers can alpha (or in pairs) along with JJs and great hitboxes as well, so it is well off too in brawling. Mad Dogs are only 5 more tons than a Stormcrow and is still good/reliable, but less good since Stormcrow's durability and speed outweighs the Mad Dog's extra laser + SRM pack. In the end, especially due to how this game style and CW's cover aspect (except Boreal, rest of maps have brawling utility which end badly for IS), Clanners have the advantage in fast skirmish/brawling. They can quickly dive into cover or unload missiles over and over as they can shield insane amounts of damage. Heat is not an issue for most if not all cases as you would have allies to cover you or you would dive into a safe location, plus firing in pairs/threes is going to help in all cases.

As much as I like the Hunchies, 4SP is not as great as Griffins due to heat of MLs, so much symmetry, and easily isolated torsos. 4G is better though, though is not really reliable compared to Griffins in CW due to ammo problems. 4P suffers the same Nova-like fate of heat.

I have one experience with ol' boomstick 4SP, I ran into a Stormcrow with 5 SRM6 loadout as usual (because every other person is running it). It's just me and him since we were fighting over a side cap point (Gamma or Sig?) He one shotted (well 3-2 punched) my side torso, so I ran to cover. Of course I'm too slow (106 kph > 92 kph) and my SRMs barely core one leg as I'm left with ML. I get it to orange and then I die even though I wasn't even cored when I lost all my other weapons. The 4SP is simply way too glass cannon and can't take hits, unlike the Stormcrow which can soak damage with it's stupid hands and impossible to isolate torsos.

Edited by luxebo, 27 April 2015 - 08:29 PM.

[luxebo]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 27 April 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

The average clan dropdeck is not 2 great brawlers 2 good ranged mechs. Really often its a streak-crow (to fight off lightrushes), a hellbringer medium range laservomit (its a teamgame so ECM!), a timberwolf (because its the best mech in game and everyone looks on kills and damage) with either some SRMs and lasers or straight lasers and an ice-ferret because the tonnage was free or for generator-rushes.

No it's 3 Streak/splat/gauss/laser crows and one Timber with the exact loadout the crow has with more armor and more weapons.

Or 2 of the crows mentioned and 2 laser vomit/gauss vomit Hellbringers.

Never even seen lights/other meds except stormcrows being at all used (maybe for pugs, but never god never for 12 mans). Never seen an Assault/Summoner either, and Mad Dog is really just SRM/SSRM spam.

At least one WHOLE wave will be SRM/SSRM spam. Likely if an IS team beats down whatever is remaining of the first wave the Clanners used to win in, (if so) they will then see all these IS brawlers and although most are healthy Clanners will outright win for sure on this round, guaranteeing victory for Clanners as the Clanners now spawn camp every dropping mech. Long range laser/gauss vomit will just be there for the start, then right after it turns to brawl over brawl.

Also, this applies to IS too. Everyone jumps in snipers/mid rangers, then we get screwed over with clan brawling. Generally even clan brawling can win against clan range AT RANGE (mid range, not talking about 1000m + range).

Edited by luxebo, 27 April 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[CrushLibs]

Too many IS crack smokers ,, please put down the pipe

Stalker 5M with SRM vs Stormcrow
5M quirks -- SRM 6 RANGE: 7.50 % , MISSILE RANGE: 7.50 % , SRM 6 COOLDOWN: 7.50 % , MISSILE COOLDOWN: 7.50 %
So the 5M has a 40m range advantage and can cool down 15% faster
Stalker armor has 108 CT vs. 72 and 72 R/LT vs. 52
Internal points 54 CT vs. 36 and 36 vs. 26
Damage output 64.5 vs 60
Heat Dissipation 3.59 heat/s vs. 2.94 heat/s

Face to Face the 5M will deal out more damage at longer range and before the SC can eat thru the armor on the 5M its overheated or dead.

On top of that the 5M can mount 5 lasers too since it has heat to burn.

[Bows3r]

luxebo, on 26 April 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Twisting does nothing when you only have one leg and your CT.

I'm gonna ignore everyone else for the time being that says OMG IS is STILL BEST BRAWLER because that isn't true. L2P? Well you know what, Imma organize a test run with 12 Atlas DDC/S and 12 Timbers boating SRMs. Let's see who will win.

Heat? HEAT??? Yeah that only matters when you DON'T have cover. What kind of brawler doesn't have cover?

I'm gonna stop responding to this topic altogether till I can do this test somehow; most of my unit members are slowly leaving and I have only come back to Tukayyid finding that each and every CW match thus far I've played in is a fail due to idiots trying to outbrawl SRM Stormcrows and Timbers.

I'm also gonna ask Gman and a few other top level players to see their responses and consensuses. My unit is gonna stay away from brawling in CW, but if it really is more effective, have to see how/why, because at this point IS brawling is worse than trading shots at the longest range. I personally believe that the game is back-ass-wards since we are better at long range (same range, less heat; 4N, Grid Iron, SHD-2K, etc) but worse at mid range dps (heavy ass damage and can drop back to cover) and short range (can still drop back to cover while being far more mobile than IS mechs with potentially more survivability due to stupid Stormcrow hitboxes and having the same loadout as an assault).

If anyone responds like an idiot and say ermaigawd IS is better without any logical testing or any other thing to state then I'm not gonna respond.

Oh and Icy, I've already done that. Just waiting for the response.

You did not mention in the post I referred to that you were only down to a leg and CT, next time clarify please.


And also, while GMan's opinion is to be respected, and frankly that goes for the whole of SJR, there are other skilled comp units out there, some of whom do use brawling as their primary tactics.

Edited by Bows3r, 27 April 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[quantaca]

Well if you're gonna pit 12 atlas ddc/S against 12 timby brawlers im pretty sure the timby will win but only because the atlas lacks where every IS assault lacks and thats mobility, not just speed but turning rate and limited torso twist range will make tracking your target difficult. But a mixed IS force ... now thats something else, throw in some griffins/cents/hunchies add a firestarter or 2 and some mpl 5ss and you'll outmaneuver those timby's easily and unlike true IS brawling mechs that can shield arm, deadside or even zombie, every component they lose diminishes there output. The fact that their weapons are so spreadout also means that more often than not they will hit a teammate with atleast one of their weapons (that p2w torso might change that though). And seriously dont ignore the heat that gets generated or the cooldown times on the weapons, clans have higher alphas but generally IS can put out more dmg in 10-12 seconds.

And a note on ssrms, yeah they're powerfull and generally hit the target but they also spread the dmg around and have a very slow cooldown (in 6 seconds a 5ss can alpha 2 times putting out double the dmg but a lot more pinpoint) so against a streakcrow you should stay alive long enough to at the very least dmg him severly enough so the next guy kills him, streak crows are mostly only good to rack up dmg and kill those IS lights that sometimes seem to be able to tank more dmg than an atlass, and no im not a bad shot i just have ****** hit reg on lights (once alphad a dc firestarter in the back, with streaks, and all it did was turn his shoulder armor yellow, that was a real wtf moment, lol). And yes i know they make good harrassers and endgame mopupers as well but still

[Torchfire Katayama]

Defining a brawl as combat within 200 meters:


Effective Clan Brawl Weapons

• A+SRM 4/6
  
• S-SRM 4/6 (Against light mechs only)
  
• Small Pulse Laser
  
• LBX 10/20

Effective IS Brawl Weapons

• SRM 4/6 (Don't need Artemis, spread without is as good as Clan version with)
  
• AC 10/20
  
• LBX 10
  
• Small Pulse Laser (Lights only)
  
• Medium Laser
  
• Large Laser (with appropriate quirks only)
  
• Medium Pulse Laser
  
• Large Pulse Laser

Fairly obvious IS have much more choice of weapons to choose from for brawling effectively. C-U/AC-20 not included as a brawl weapon because, despite its short range, its rate of fire per bullet is very slow and you're unable to place your shots effectively compared to an IS AC 20. IS lasers as a rule, have a much shorter burn duration and heat cost than Clan lasers and therefore make much better brawl weapons.


In conclusion, IS mechs are great brawlers. Though the clans can brawl as well, they have fewer avenues to chose from in how they brawl.

Edited by Torchfire, 27 April 2015 - 10:03 PM.

[quantaca]

CrushLibs, on 27 April 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Too many IS crack smokers ,, please put down the pipe

Stalker 5M with SRM vs Stormcrow
5M quirks -- SRM 6 RANGE: 7.50 % , MISSILE RANGE: 7.50 % , SRM 6 COOLDOWN: 7.50 % , MISSILE COOLDOWN: 7.50 %
So the 5M has a 40m range advantage and can cool down 15% faster
Stalker armor has 108 CT vs. 72 and 72 R/LT vs. 52
Internal points 54 CT vs. 36 and 36 vs. 26
Damage output 64.5 vs 60
Heat Dissipation 3.59 heat/s vs. 2.94 heat/s

Face to Face the 5M will deal out more damage at longer range and before the SC can eat thru the armor on the 5M its overheated or dead.

On top of that the 5M can mount 5 lasers too since it has heat to burn.

On paper thats true, in game though due to limited torso twist range the 5m will have trouble tracking that stormcrow, assuming the scr pilot knows what he's doing that is

[White Bear 84]

luxebo, on 25 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

BECAUSE IT CLEARLY ISN'T CORRECT IN ANY CASE!

They actually brawl better in most if not all cases.

So stop brawling use 4Ns and dual gauss and stuff to try to trade enemies until they get free TBR-A hardpoints. Then after that just hope they don't bring TBR-A hardpoints.

Trading has its place, but only if your smart enough to not allow yourself to get out ranged or out damaged by the clans.
But brawling has a place. Most of my dropdeck is brawling mechs - the entire competition for Tukayyid, after 30 matches I have consistently reached match score with anywhere between 5 - 10 kills, ~1,500 damage.

Might not be the greatest score of all time.. ..but what I value about this is that none of my preferred CW mechs are 'long range'. NONE. (I do have variants of all the meta, but i choose to run otherwise).

Long range sniping and trading counts for squat if you get rushed or they are on top of the gen and you need to disable them fast - or you are engaged in close range choke points.

As for the argument regarding streakcrows and the likes - my YLW with its sole AC/20 has taken the scalp of many streakcrows, lrmdogs, gausswolves and the likes. I have no shame in brawling to the max.

On a side note, maybe also consider - which mechs tend to run hotter? Clan or IS? Whoever runs hottest & cannot dish out sustained dps will probably be at the disadvantage...

On a second side note - at the end of the day, different people and units have different approaches. Groups should work with what tactics work for them, pugs should learn what does and does not work and work with that.

Edited by White Bear 84, 27 April 2015 - 10:17 PM.