28 replies to this topic

[Hoffenstein]

The feature I'm suggesting would be ECM having 3 modes of use:

Off - Generates zero heat, does not provide any benefit or hinderance

On, Counter - Generates heat like a constantly firing weapon (amount of heat would not be a lot, but would add up over time).

On, Disrupt - Generates heat like a constantly firing weapon (amount of heat would not be a lot, but would add up over time).

This suggestion would not change the current effect of ECM, simply add some more thought as to when and where it will be most beneficial to use.

Edited by Hoffenstein, 07 June 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Bilbo]

Hoffenstein, on 29 May 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

Here's a way to limit ECM usage down to a non-prolific level, have the ECM computer create heat, up to 90%. You can't accidentally kill your Mech with it, but it'll severely hamper your firepower unless you moderate your usage of it. Switching the mode will put the ECM in "Cold mode", stopping it from creating heat until it's switched back to "Hot mode" again.

It won't limit usage so much as end it.

[Juodas Varnas]

I'd rather just have ECM act like ECM's supposed to.
(definitely not what it does now)

[Spleenslitta]

I voted no. But only because of 2 things.
1) The 50% heat cap is too high....i'd say 25-35% at most. I'd say 15% heat cap ceiling.
2) My computer is a device that creates more heat the harder it works. ECM could do the same but i doubt it would produce heat along the same amounts as a laser.
It's only logical.

Juodas Varnas, on 29 May 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

I'd rather just have ECM act like ECM's supposed to.
(definitely not what it does now)

Do you mean ECM should only work for the mech carrying it or is it something else?
I'd be totally fine with ECM only working for the mech carrying it...whooops. Gotta go to work. See you later. Gotta go sell housepaint to old ladies. XD

[Tarogato]

Voted yes, but I don't like your specific implementation.

I'd rather see something like "if you have ECM equipped at all, you run 4% hotter overall", the same as how your engine or walking into a caldera causes passive/ambient heat.

[ShinVector]

So I guess only A Gauss Hellbringer would or similar would benefit from that most.

[Juodas Varnas]

Spleenslitta, on 29 May 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

Do you mean ECM should only work for the mech carrying it or is it something else?
I'd be totally fine with ECM only working for the mech carrying it...whooops. Gotta go to work. See you later. Gotta go sell housepaint to old ladies. XD

Current ECM implementation works nothing like Guardian ECM in Lore.
It's supposed to only COUNTER (since you know, it's a COUNTERMEASURES suite) other electronics, like NARCs, BAPs and Artemis IV.
It's not supposed to affect missile lock-on AT ALL. Not even a little bit!

ECM should be completely scrapped and remade from scratch. Along with the current LRM indirect fire mechanics. Indirect fire, in my opinion, should REQUIRE TAG or NARC, not just a simply lock (UAVs shouldn't allow indirect fire either...They shouldn't even exist! But since they do, they should just provide intel and the enemy locations and not as a crutch for LRMs). If it was made that way, LRMs could be buffed without reintroducing the LuRMageddon of Closed Beta.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 30 May 2015 - 12:04 AM.

[happy mech]

Juodas Varnas, on 29 May 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

Current ECM implementation works nothing like Guardian ECM in Lore.
It's supposed to only COUNTER (since you know, it's a COUNTERMEASURES suite) other electronics, like NARCs, BAPs and Artemis IV.
It's not supposed to affect missile lock-on AT ALL. Not even a little bit!

ECM should be completely scrapped and remade from scratch. Along with the current LRM indirect fire mechanics. Indirect fire, in my opinion, should REQUIRE TAG or NARC, not just a simply lock (UAVs shouldn't allow indirect fire either...They shouldn't even exist! But since they do, they should just provide intel and the enemy locations and not as a crutch for LRMs). If it was made that way, LRMs could be buffed without reintroducing the LuRMageddon of Closed Beta.

exactly

[Nightshade24]

how about buff the mech variants a little bit more that do not carry the ECM?

For eg...

Hellbringer without ECM is nearly as useless as a summoner
Kitfox without ECM is nearly as useless as an adder.
Raven 2X and 4X do not only not fail to carry ECM, but are also slower...
Atlas that is not a DDC has simular quirks, even then all atlas quirks are not impressive.

etc...

Hellbringer could do with quikrs to start with.
ER ppc quirks for prime arms, mg RoF, missile spread and lbx spread, etc. Also implement my idea of having omnipod set bonus having 25% of the total quirks and extra, so a stock Hellbringer A and B in omnipod vise will have good quirks that having ecm torso will not allow. Being a good ballancing.

Kitfox?... ballistic arm give good reload for LBX 5, reduce LBX spread and increase streak reload for a few ideas... omnipod set bonus idea as well but do not butcher the C.

Ravens? well this is just player choice really... the other ones can be very lovely... perhaps sensor related quirks and slightly better agility could do.

Atlas? Structure increases, missile spread, buffing lrm capability slightly, etc... make the other ones worth it.



Just a few ideas for the ECM carriers.

[happy mech]

Nightshade24, on 30 May 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

how about buff the mech variants a little bit more that do not carry the ECM?

instead of buffing i would look at the problem why the ecm mechs are so strong and fix it, selective buffing leads to instability (see what some quirks have done)

edit: also, ecm breaks a whole lot of other things like lrms and information warfare

Edited by happy mech, 30 May 2015 - 03:18 AM.

[Nightshade24]

happy mech, on 30 May 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

instead of buffing i would look at the problem why the ecm mechs are so strong and fix it, selective buffing leads to instability (see what some quirks have done)

edit: also, ecm breaks a whole lot of other things like lrms and information warfare

ECM is so powerful because the other variants of that mech doesn't have it with no advantage besides the atlas which the K has 2 ams instead of 1.

ECM isn't that bad, TAG, NARC, UAV's, BAP, etc all can.

I am quite heavily an LRM user and I have no problems with ECM at the very moment. The only problem is the non ECM variants are being rather weak.

[Spleenslitta]

Juodas Varnas, on 29 May 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

Current ECM implementation works nothing like Guardian ECM in Lore.
It's supposed to only COUNTER (since you know, it's a COUNTERMEASURES suite) other electronics, like NARCs, BAPs and Artemis IV.
It's not supposed to affect missile lock-on AT ALL. Not even a little bit!

ECM should be completely scrapped and remade from scratch. Along with the current LRM indirect fire mechanics. Indirect fire, in my opinion, should REQUIRE TAG or NARC, not just a simply lock (UAVs shouldn't allow indirect fire either...They shouldn't even exist! But since they do, they should just provide intel and the enemy locations and not as a crutch for LRMs). If it was made that way, LRMs could be buffed without reintroducing the LuRMageddon of Closed Beta.

So that's how it worked in the lore. I'd be totally fine with ECM becoming like this as long as the LRM boats could not fire indirectly without the aid of NARC or TAG.
They could even add double time to get target info on an ECM equipped mech.
Or just make it so that you cannot get damage/weapon info ECM equipped mechs.
Would i use ECM on my Kit Fox even with these extra effects?....nnaaa. But it would be a valuable tool for big slow mechs.

But the sad thing is that PGI has come so far in the MWO's development that they won't change something that important.
We could provide them with perfect balance to all the weapons and everything else and i doubt they would change matters even then.
If both LRM and ECM got these changes made the LRM/ECM users would rebel.
A vast amount of players only want to protect that which makes their own mechs more powerfull.
They simply don't care about the overall balance of the game as long as their favorite weapon/mech is not touched.

[TheArisen]

Juodas Varnas, on 29 May 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

I'd rather just have ECM act like ECM's supposed to.
(definitely not what it does now)

I like this, it'd be great if we had a choice between guardian & angel ecm.

[Greyhart]

I don't really have a problem with ECM at the moment, nor do I know anything regarding the lore of battletech.

But it's an interesting idea. Although I would suggest everyone is approaching this from the wrong direction.

How does a Mech detected something.

Logically it must be a combination of visual information and radar.

Visually I see no reason why on board computers can't pick out a mech simply compare current image with previous images and spot the difference. Logically there is no way ECM can avoid detection at range from visual information (assuming it doesn't amount to a visual cloaking device).

Radar might be avoided (as well as infra red) by the conceit (we are in the future) that ECM basically bends the electro magnetic signal around the Mechs in the area.

Finally you might detect another Mech by the Radar ping of that Mech finding you.

Now it is assumed that all Mechs on a team relay targeting information. ECM would stop this information being transmitted, unless it is transmitted by laser by direct line of sight to another Mech.

As I've said I have no real problems with the current system as far as it goes.

But it might be an idea to add active and passive sensors as an option.

If they are active you get additional info on your targets (may be a damage boost for direct fire and shorter lock on times).

But if you are on active sensors you will be detected by the enemy and ECM will not hide you. As the enemy is getting your location from something outside the ECM protection bubble.

Sorry not logically set out but in bullet points.

1. I don't see why ECM stops locks if the Mech is visible (direct line of sight).
2. there should be active and passive sensors.
3. ECM could disrupt radar (active sensors) but not passive.
4. ECM could interfere with indirect communications.

This would require a complete reworking of the electronic warfare model in the game and extensive play testing to get it balanced.

I don't see that happening.

[Nightmare1]

ECM?

Generating Heat?

What planet are you from?

[Juodas Varnas]

Nightmare1, on 02 June 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

ECM?

Generating Heat?

What planet are you from?

Well, it does hide you like Stealth armor, which did generate heat when active (in TT), it also took up 6(?) extra crit slots (2 in each arm, leg and sidetorso)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 02 June 2015 - 05:43 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Juodas Varnas, on 02 June 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

Well, it does hide you like Stealth armor, which did generate heat when active (in TT), it also took up 6(?) extra crit slots (2 in each arm, leg and sidetorso)

Don't know about stealth armor, but everything I've ever read indicates that ECM, essentially an electronics jamming suite, does not generate an appreciable amount of heat.

[eFTy]

To everyone who wants LRMs to only work on targets that are NARCed or TAGed - try playing 20 games with a good LRM mech (like the Stalker) and voluntarily withhold fire until you get the required condition. Then make a list of scores and damage done, post them here and I will happily accept your apologies.

LRMs have the biggest delay to dealing damage AND they require that target lock. All other weapons, while needing to aim, are point & click (except the poor gauss rifle, but then again). They hardly work (work as in deal enough damage to not be dead weight for the team) as they are implemented right now, and since the Radar Deprivation module, it's getting harder and harder to perform, because locks just magically disappear when you can still see half a mech behind a rock.

Why would you people want to turn LRMs into glorified flamers?

P.S. Re nerfing ECM - a good, simple improvement would be increasing TAG 'hit' duration to 2 maybe even 3 seconds (simply because otherwise it's ridiculously hard to keep it on a fast moving target at close-medium range) and increase NARC range and projectile speed.

Edited by eFTy, 02 June 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Serpentbane]

If I went reality on this, I’d say things could work something like this regarding sensors.

All mechs starts match with radar in passive mode. No enemy mechs will be targeted before radar is activated or data is relayed from other friendlies.

Active Radar, can be carried by all mechs:
- Would track all enemy mechs not hidden by obstacles.
- All enemies would show up as red triangles on minimap like today.
- The mech can target and lock for its own weapons.
- Enemy positions are relied to friendlies, but as dots only and with no targeting data.
- The mech cannot guide friendly mechs weapon systems.

- When a mech is targeted it will know the direction of the enemy mech, but not the range.
- The minimap shows a line with the direction to the source of the radar.
- This also works with own radar in passive mode.

Active Radar with advanced sensors, can be carried by certain mechs (like the raven):
- All features of Active Radar with extended range.
- Enemy positions are relied to friendlies with full targeting data.
- Equipped mech relay targeting data to friendly mechs allowing them to lock on.

- When two mechs with advanced sensors are targeted they can triangulate the source.
- Triangulated data is relayed to friendlies and show enemy on minimap as a dot.
- This also works with radar in passive mode.
- Triangulated mech cannot be targeted.

ECM (How ECM should work can be discussed, so I use the existing ECM functionality here.
- Blocks enemy radar like today, no targeting possible.
- Will not block radars with advanced sensors, but will prevent locks. Dots on enemy minimap.
- Counter mode will break enemy ECM within its bubble, nullifying it.
- Prevents enemy units within range to relay data to friendlies.

Tag laser
- Targets enemy mechs, even if protected by ECM.
- Do not collect data about targeted mech.
- All mechs can use their own TAG to lock on to enemies.
- Targeting data is relayed to friendlies relative to the mechs radar system.
- Only mechs with advanced sensors can relay data for lock on to friendly mechs.

NARC
- Lets all mechs lock on even with radar in passive mode.
- If NARCed mech is protected by ECM, mechs with passive radar will not be able to target.
- If NARCed mech is protected by ECM, radars will be able to pick up on the signal and target.
- Advanced mechs will be able to relay lock on data to friendly mechs.
- NARC do not provide any data about mech.

I think this could be a good place to start.

Edited by Serpentbane, 07 June 2015 - 04:39 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

If ECM can not work like it really should, then tie it it dropping for a set # time after firing a weapon.