134 replies to this topic

[Flak Kannon]

I like the back and forth on this.

I like the opinions raised.



I may re-think my actions on this subject.

( Tho I do love to role-play all the way off the map to a suicide at times when a 'bad team plays bad'. )

[bad arcade kitty]

Kristov Kerensky, on 04 June 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Going out of bounds is NOT against the rules. Running out of bounds to commit suicide and that's ALL is against the rules. I've done exactly what Mud has a few times myself, dragged others out of bounds and gotten back in before the timer, the fools following me, not as fast, they didn't beat the timer. It's a tricky move, I've had it fail when someone legged me right before I got back in bounds or because I mistimed my course, but when it works...

Tactics are one thing, committing suicide to grief the enemy is another thing all together. Either you are trying to win or you shouldn't drop, as you are griefing 23 other people when you aren't trying to win, and that's against PGI's rules.

People can try and argue they have the right to do whatever they want but that's wrong, they agreed to the rules PGI set, so they have to follow those rules and those rules don't allow you to NOT try and win. Yes, this is a game, but it is a game that has set objectives in all it's modes, and PGI's rules make it clear, if you aren't trying to win, you are breaking the rules. Suicide on purpose, you have broken the rules, regardless of what you THINK about those rules, you did agree to follow them, so keep that in mind, you can reported for that and if enough people report you, PGI does take action.

you clearly didn't read the rules, which were quoted in this thread, they don't forbid suicide unless you joined the game for the purpose of suicide

then, when people blow up themselves or go out of bounds it's a choice between 2 ways of suicide for them - to die to enemy or to die denying enemy, obviously the second choice is the right one

let me explain why it's important. it's a game where you are supposed to support your team and to hurt enemy one. in games like that you should try to deny enemy as much as possible. what you are proposing sounds, if we put it blatantly, as 'one, being in a helpless situation, shouldn't suicide but should give a kill to enemy to help them to earn c-bills and to increase their kill ratio otherwise it's griefing'. i hope you see why it's ridiculous. if not, consider that it may go further like 'we are winning, let's feed enemy some kills to make them feel better otherwise it's griefing' etc. it's simply not how such games are played, if you want good games, you should encourage complete mercilessness to enemy

[DAYLEET]

Darian DelFord, on 03 June 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

Also prevalant is suicide by Overheating

They realy need to change it back to what it was before. I dont know how many times i kill myself because the fkin override stays on.

[Mystere]

Flak Kannon, on 04 June 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

I like the back and forth on this.
I like the opinions raised.

I may re-think my actions on this subject.
( Tho I do love to role-play all the way off the map to a suicide at times when a 'bad team plays bad'. )

As long as you don't make a habit of it (i.e. establish a consistent pattern), you should be fine doing so.

[Mystere]

TWIAFU, on 04 June 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

Interesting that you take two sentences out of that whole paragraph and out of context to support your own view.

However, here is the whole paragraph;

To reiterate and clarify the Terms of Use on Prohibited Conduct: As an online game and an ongoing development, we do expect issues to be discovered by players. In cases where an issue can provide an unfair advantage, players are expected to refrain from manipulating these issues. Accidental triggering of an issue will rarely be of concern, though repeated abuse of any such issue reported to us will frequently be met with a warning or sanction. Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means could be considered actionable.

So people can read the whole thing, IN CONTEXT.

Because I was driving a point that so many people miss, either via willful ignorance or sheer stubbornness: participation in the match prior to [suiciding, hiding, running away, etc.] renders the "Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means" condition moot. That is the key.

Let me repeat. That is the key.

Also:

Mystere, on 04 June 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

As long as you don't make a habit of it (i.e. establish a consistent pattern), you should be fine doing so from time to time.

Edited by Mystere, 04 June 2015 - 04:36 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Mystere, on 04 June 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Because I was driving a point that so many people miss, either via willful ignorance or sheer stubbornness: participation in the match prior to [suiciding, hiding, running away, etc.] renders the "Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means" condition moot. That is the key.

Let me repeat. That is the key.

Also:

I think you've got it backwards there friend.

"Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means", i.e The match begins and you IMMEDIATELY run out of bounds, or Alpha-strike one of your lancemates in the back, or you overheat yourself and explode, rendering your team one player down.

That is disruptive and childish. The person has declared themselves to be a troll, that they do not care for anyone's enjoyment but their own, and they will go to any lengths to give a big ol' middle finger to everyone else just to get their jollies.

If someone has fought in the match, done damage and been damaged, and ends up being the last mech standing, has played according to the rules, and therefore they have no obligation to stay and be overwhelmed by the opposing force. If they wish to run out of bounds at that point, I can't see how that would be against the rules, because they've played the game, their team slowly but inexorably lost, and therefore the last person standing is well within their rights to run the F*** away.

This on the other hand, the person participated in the game according to the written and un-written rules of the game, and if they are the last person standing, they have no obligation whatsoever to just stand around and get their butt stomped into the ground, so retreat is a completely viable option.

Granted this depends on the mech they are using. Lights and fast mediums can in all likelihood make a tactical retreat and end the match. Heavies and assaults on the other hand, will not be fast enough to do so and so their only option will be to slug it out until they are beaten.

Funny how a little logic can unravel your argument.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 04 June 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Mystere, if you start to play a game and then simply walk off when you THINK you won't win, what does that mean about you as a person? That applies to video games as well, if you start the game, especially a team game, and then decide you can't win so you quit, what does that say about you as a person? How we play a game reflects extremely well on how we deal with real life, so people who start a game and just quit when they decide they can't win will do the exact same thing outside of games. You can look it up if you want, doesn't matter to me one way or the other, it is what it is. People driven to excel are driven to excel regardless of the setting, people who aren't, aren't, morals and ethics can also be determined from watching people play games.

Let me ask you this: Have you ever terminated a meeting right in the middle and walked out because you found it a waste of your time?

I have.

Guess what happened the next time? The next meeting was more organized and, better yet, more fruitful.

And what is the moral of that story, you might ask? Well, nowadays people know pretty well not to waste my time.

Alan Davion, on 04 June 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

"Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means", i.e The match begins and you IMMEDIATELY run out of bounds, or Alpha-strike one of your lancemates in the back, or you overheat yourself and explode, rendering your team one player down.

That is not what I was talking about. Get a clue please.

[XphR]

TWIAFU, on 03 June 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Have you forgotten, PGI does not like it and is a clear cut case of Non-participation;

* Wilfully or repeatedly self-destructing one's 'Mech by Overheating or going Out-of-Bounds.

http://mwomercs.com/...nduct-expanded/

He chose to break the rules and is subject to being reported for it.

OP, while frustrating, just take a screenshot, name them and the time, and send to support so they can deal with them.

This only counts as Non-participation if that is the only action they take. If they have participated in battle and then choose this path it is a legitimate action.

[Mawai]

As far as I know ... however they die ... it is still considered a death. They aren't preserving their KDR in any way. (On the other hand, folks who shutdown and try to hide to run out a match or force alternate victory conditions are trying to preserve their KDR).

The only thing that overheating or running out of bounds to die does is deny the other team the kill ... and honestly. I don't really see any problem with that.

[Mystere]

Madcap72, on 04 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Because it's way more fun to do the huge list of alternatives than be childish and run off the map?

Please get a clue by reading what I was responding to again:

Anubis Ka, on 03 June 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

So when you are the last man standing and have no weapons what do yo suggest? Give the enemy a free kill?

Other than running away, hiding, and suicide, what other "huge list of alternatives" is there? Care to write down that "huge list"?

Edited by Mystere, 04 June 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[Stealth Fox]

bad arcade kitty, on 03 June 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

read this http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4480100

you would never be a good lawyer wouldn't you

>Running out of bounds is the tactic of losers.

nope, it's a tactic of those who don't play to satisfy their enemies

bad arcade kitty, on 03 June 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

read again
it's the explicit clarification when those actions are considered as prohibited

if you read the list of 'exploiting/griefing' it includes even simply using the in-game chat ('spam'), it's not the action itself but how often, when and why it's done which make it disruptive

Being the fact that you have shown the ability to out right ignore, slander and then run away from those who prove you wrong, you have no right to talk to any one about being a good lawyer, yeah..no I'm not letting this go. You out right called thousands of Allied Troops evil, racist and heartless while saying terrorists are innocent freedom fighters. yeah.. I totally trust you on ANYTHING you say after that.

Killing your self via out of bounds on purpose many times to deny the enemy and hurt your team is against TOS, Get over it.

Screw you and your logic.

It does not work, It does not stick, Most things you have posted or ranted on about here are just flat out wrong, Including here.

Never get high and mighty or condecending on any one where, ever, because you have yet to prove you can do anything but ignore logic, fact and instead trust your own magical world you your self live in.

Edited by Seph MacLeod, 04 June 2015 - 05:36 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

>Killing your self via out of bounds on purpose many times to deny the enemy and hurt your team
>and hurt your team

nice straw man fallacy here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

we are talking about the case when people suicide because they cannot help their team anymore and are about to be killed by enemy

you should be ashamed to use such a method in a discussion...

[WrathOfDeadguy]

There's a pretty easy way to make deliberate suicides less irritating: list the suicide in chat as normal, but award the kill to a member of the opposing team. After all, the OpFor's actions did bring about their death, driving them to destroy their own 'Mech out of spite- because spite is the only reason to deny the kill to someone, if your death is inevitable anyway, barring an overheat death while making your last stand. That's not an unreasonable action to take; it is not inconceivable that you might score another kill or component destruction or something else that increases your own profits...

...but the idiots that alpha into the air or the ground to self-destruct, or the ones who run out of bounds? Grow up.

Don't sugarcoat or deny it; you believe, for whatever reason, that you are morally superior to the players on the other team, and you think that entitles you to deny them the rewards for beating you. And they have. Beaten you, that is. And that upsets you, so you want to stick your tongue out and flip over the table before the last move like a five year old who's lost at Monopoly. It's exactly the same mentality. So, since you're unwilling to put on your big boy pants and eat your humble pie, and seem to think it odd that people think less of you for that, I propose a different solution.

If a suicidal player has been in combat, then the kill goes to the last member of the opposing team who dealt them damage and assists including 'most damage dealt' awards are distributed per usual. Otherwise (I'll assume that if you're the last 'Mech alive, you've probably taken damage somehow, so this probably applies mostly to start-of-match suicides), credit goes to nobody but the rewards for the kill are split evenly between all twelve members of the opposing team and everyone gets an assist.

It doesn't need to be complicated.

Edited by PS WrathOfDeadguy, 04 June 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

>There's a pretty easy way to make deliberate suicides less irritating: list the suicide in chat as normal, but award the kill to a member of the opposing team.

the greediness and selfishness of these kill hunters is pretty amusing

[WazOfOz]

define suicide. team members charging blindly at enemy within first minute of match ? snipers isolating themselves not supporting team, allowing themselves to be picked off by a coupla lights ? not gathering for murder ball ? running 0 armour ? running stupid builds on their mech ? etc. etc. why is it that only the last coupla team mates can be guilty of suicide ? perhaps the last couple just wanted to die as their comrades did, doing stupid suicidal things.
oh your talking about depriving the enemy a kill ? what about depriving their team mates a chance of winning because they've chosen to die early doing silly things ?
I know of people that will charge the enemy early, let go a UAV get the spotting bonus for as many E mechs as possible then move onto next match. is that not self serving and suicidal ?
suicidal could also be said of those people that don't lock targets when brawling to get some support from friendlies.
I think you'll find most people choose to suicide ( deprive the enemy a kill ) out of frustration at their own teams efforts, or lack of. or that they know ELO got it wrong again.
take it as a compliment of your great skills.

Edited by WazOfOz, 04 June 2015 - 09:05 PM.

[Void Angel]

Water Bear, on 04 June 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

It's not necessarily spite. It can be viewed as a relief of discomfort for the losers. Once the victor is determined, the standard moral imperative of maximizing everyone's enjoyment still holds.

Also relevant: What determines defeat, exactly? Yes, the game rules state "when all enemy mechs are destroyed," but practically speaking when it's 9 men hunting one sorry sumuvabitch in the woods, the game is over. Ease the last guy's suffering. Let him charge out of bounds if it makes him feel better.

By all means, let him - just don't let him passive-aggressively deny people their just rewards. That's the core of my complaint. If it didn't do anything to the other side, that'd be one thing; but when people are doing it to grief the enemy as "compensation" for a lost match? Nah, not so much.

PS Kitty, it's a widely-known truism that when you resort to trickery and personal attacks instead of dealing with the other's arguments, you've lost the debate. Stealth-quoting me to get the last word, then making up lies and engaging in 3rd-grade mockery counts. Thank you for admitting you were wrong, and enjoy your time on my ignore list.

[bad arcade kitty]

>By all means, let him - just don't let him passive-aggressively deny people their just rewards.

rewards should be deserved, not given away, the more so given away to enemy
they are not obliged to be a walking bag of c-bills and satisfaction to you
kill them if you can
get a big fat deny if you cannot

[bad arcade kitty]

p.s. i didn't find where i 'stealth quoted' you

as for > quotes, i got that habit on imageboards and lol forum

upd. found it
apparently to write a post right behind the answered one isn't clear enough

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 04 June 2015 - 08:21 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mystere, stopping an unproductive meeting at work isn't quite the same thing as walking off when losing in a game, but you know that, and I do see the point you are making, but it doesn't apply here. Walking away from a losing game in MWO doesn't make the other players actually pay attention next time, after all, YOU aren't their boss or have any real world influence on them. Personally, when I've called a meeting and it's going nowhere because stupidity abounds, I make it real clear, real fast, I'm the boss, pull your heads out NOW or I'll consider your resignation tendered as of end of business yesterday. Amazing how quickly people start paying attention and working when you have real world influence like that That doesn't work in MWO, I can't fire anyone on my team, no matter how badly they should be fired..out of a dropship's bay into the nearest solar body...

Kitty, I know that logic and reality are a little hard for you to get your head around sometimes...ok, I'll be honest, most of the time, but the simple fact of the matter is this :

You agreed to the rules PGI set, those rules make it clear you are to play to win. There is no clause or conditional statement that allows you to play to NOT win. Failure to follow the rules opens you up for sanctions from PGI, at their discretion, when you get reported for it. Suicide is clearly NOT trying to win, no matter your justification, which in YOUR case every single time has been to grief other players, which is very clearly AGAINST the rules PGI has set. You have repeatedly made clear your personal intention to grief other players on these forums. If I do happen to run into you in a drop and you suicide, I will report you for it, and I'll also point Support at your posts showing that it was your intent to grief other players all along. I would strongly suggest anyone who sees Kitty suicide in a drop do the same, the sooner such a player is removed from our midst the better. I have NO desire to play with or against someone who's been clear that they will grief others on purpose.

[Nazar24]

Committing subaru is not a crime.
It is the highest honor.
If the suicider is not a troll, i see no reason why he should be penalized for such a thing.