279 replies to this topic

[White Bear 84]

Stonefalcon, on 22 June 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

Everyone knows that whale got lucky with a leg crit and stopped the light in it's tracks.

And when the lights shoot the whales in the legs they complain its not fair...

[Alardus]

Moldur, on 23 June 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

I'm guessing if the speed limit is 65 on a freeway in rush hour and everyone is going 72, you'll keep driving 65 even if it's a potential hazard by disrupting the flow of traffic. Since we're taking things to idiotic extremes, what with asking me if I've ever broken a law that is punishable by death, you'll probably cause a minivan to crash, killing a mother and all her 6 children that had bright futures ahead of them.

First, I drive slower than that because it saves gas, and thereby saves money. A lot of money. Second, there's rules about maintaining a proper following distance. These rules trump any slow speed, because if everyone maintained a proper following distance, they'd have to be using their gas and brakes more, rather than tailgating because "someone else is going too slow".

So, when a mom kills her kids by tailgating, that's her fault, or the fault of other drivers who are tailgating her. It has nothing to do with someone going slower.

You are responsible for your own safety.

Edited by Alardus, 23 June 2015 - 11:05 PM.

[Random Carnage]

The only justification for power down is a momentary off/on to clear radar lock. Period. Anything else is unjustified, and deserves to be outted.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Random Carnage, on 24 June 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

The only justification for power down is a momentary off/on to clear radar lock. Period. Anything else is unjustified, and deserves to be outted.

Had my non ecm Atlas on therma last night. No one pushed the team decided to roll around the outside. I could not keep up and only had one kill so far. I saw them get wiped so I found a niche to back into and powered down. About 90 seconds till the first came up on seismic and meanwhile some pud is threatening to treason me in chat. Others said don't do it and he just complained. I ended up popping three more kills before the bulk arrived. End result I had the only kills and near 900 damage. The next in line just assists and sub 300. The pud who was going to give me away. 90 damage.

Shove your power down ideas and learn to play.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"The only justification for power down is a momentary off/on to clear radar lock. Period. Anything else is unjustified, and deserves to be outted."

So glad to finally hear from an expert on other people's tactics. Its like getting advice from the pilots who died before me.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Fenrisulvyn, on 24 June 2015 - 03:18 AM, said:

"The only justification for power down is a momentary off/on to clear radar lock. Period. Anything else is unjustified, and deserves to be outted."

So glad to finally hear from an expert on other people's tactics. Its like getting advice from the pilots who died before me.

Exactly.

Reminds me of the player who overextends (runs a head of their team), dies, and then proceeds to insult his team over general chat. Calls his team no talent idiots that can't play, then proceeds to watch his team win without him.

It doesn't happen often, but so satisfying when it does.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 24 June 2015 - 03:34 AM.

[Raggedyman]

Fenrisulvyn, on 24 June 2015 - 03:18 AM, said:

"The only justification for power down is a momentary off/on to clear radar lock. Period. Anything else is unjustified, and deserves to be outted."

So glad to finally hear from an expert on other people's tactics. Its like getting advice from the pilots who died before me.

What you have to remember is that this isn't your game, it's Clan Precious Little Snowflake's and they have no time to put up with your choice of tactics because of the Serious Business they have to attend to. I mean, they died so why should you inconvenience them further by drawing out the inevitability of them having already died that round?

Edited by Raggedyman, 25 June 2015 - 03:32 AM.

[Slepnir]

MeiSooHaityu, on 24 June 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

Exactly.

Reminds me of the player who overextends (runs a head of their team), dies, and then proceeds to insult his team over general chat. Calls his team no talent idiots that can't play, then proceeds to watch his team win without him.

It doesn't happen often, but so satisfying when it does.

Hey I think we had that guy on our team in our match on terra therma tonight. tried telling the rest of the team what to do and then bitched incessantly when our 6 man team told him no and decided to win the match after he was dead, he does it every match we drop with him.

[Kael Posavatz]

Using shutdown to grief other players or to preserve your KDR is not okay by any means.

Making tactical use of the shutdown is fine. It is, after all, why it is there.

Shutting down between LRM volleys so the enemy is confused about your true location is a tactical use. So are, in no particular order, breaking missile locks, ambushes (used to see a lot of people power down next to destroyed mechs and wait for someone to walk by), and to increase heat dissipation rate (one would think the coolant pumps wouldn't work at all without power, but they seem to actually work better).

It is unfortunate but true that many cannot distinguish between someone making tactical use of the shutdown feature, and those who are griefing/cowering in fear.

[Mystere]

Random Carnage, on 24 June 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

The only justification for power down is a momentary off/on to clear radar lock. Period. Anything else is unjustified, and deserves to be outted.

<I am not even going to dignify the above with a response other than this.>

Edited by Mystere, 24 June 2015 - 06:56 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Kristov Kerensky, on 23 June 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

Sorry Wildstreak, but your video still has nothing to do with the OP or the topic. The OP was in game, and he said in team chat that he was hiding with honor after he shut down. Your video has a guy who was disconnected, he wasn't shutdown, he didn't say he was hiding, and he wasn't hiding. Very different things going on.

It does, you are just being obtuse about it.

For some time now, we (the community) have had a group of individuals who believe every shutdown Mech is trying to preserve his KDR.
Shut down for an ambush? An ally screams, "You're protecting your KDR! Coward!" then gives you away.
Shut down to cool off? An ally screams, "You're protecting your KDR! Coward!" then gives you away.
Shut down to break missile lock? An ally screams, "You're protecting your KDR! Coward!" then gives you away.

Yeah, some people have not seen it. They are the lucky ones. I have seen it ever since that change I was reminded of last night, some time back since Open Beta started it used to be a person who was Disconnected was automatically Dead. Now we have Rejoin because of accidental Discons but ever since that change, there is this growing group who claim to have psychic powers and know that every Mech powered down and not fighting is preserving a KDR rating no one can prove.

You act like this only happened to the OP. It happens a LOT. Clearly you must be one of the fortunate people who has not seen this growing trend among a sub-group in this game. This will be followed by the new growing trend, the guy who gives orders in a match that are known to always fail but insists on giving them anyway and blames the team for a loss when they do not follow the known to fail plan.

Random Carnage, on 24 June 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

The only justification for power down is a momentary off/on to clear radar lock. Period. Anything else is unjustified, and deserves to be outted.

Thanks for warning me to look for your name in future matches overcomplicating MWO further.

Raggedyman, on 24 June 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

What you have to remember is that this isn't your game, it's Clan Precious Little Snowflake's and they have no time to put up with your choice of tactics because of the Serious Business they have to attend to. I mean, they died so why should you inconvenience them further by drawing out the inevitability of them having already dies that round?

Is that the IClan?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Wildstreak, on 24 June 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

It does, you are just being obtuse about it.

For some time now, we (the community) have had a group of individuals who believe every shutdown Mech is trying to preserve his KDR.
Shut down for an ambush? An ally screams, "You're protecting your KDR! Coward!" then gives you away.
Shut down to cool off? An ally screams, "You're protecting your KDR! Coward!" then gives you away.
Shut down to break missile lock? An ally screams, "You're protecting your KDR! Coward!" then gives you away.

Yeah, some people have not seen it. They are the lucky ones. I have seen it ever since that change I was reminded of last night, some time back since Open Beta started it used to be a person who was Disconnected was automatically Dead. Now we have Rejoin because of accidental Discons but ever since that change, there is this growing group who claim to have psychic powers and know that every Mech powered down and not fighting is preserving a KDR rating no one can prove.

You act like this only happened to the OP. It happens a LOT. Clearly you must be one of the fortunate people who has not seen this growing trend among a sub-group in this game. This will be followed by the new growing trend, the guy who gives orders in a match that are known to always fail but insists on giving them anyway and blames the team for a loss when they do not follow the known to fail plan.


Thanks for warning me to look for your name in future matches overcomplicating MWO further.


Is that the IClan?

This isn't a growing problem or a new problem, we've had people doing this since CB when shutting down to protect KDR was very common and used by farmers left and right. That's why the rule was created in the first place, it was a serious problem. I personally saw it 2 out of 3 drops for quite a while, it was totally out of control and the Goonies were some of the major offenders at the time.

Now, I don't see it very often, but when I DO see it, I look at the situation and ask if they are setting an ambush or just hiding to run out the clock. Usually it's people hiding to run out the clock, once in a while it's someone setting an ambush. Either way, I don't call out their location and tell my team not to do so either. If they are just running out the clock and it's Skirmish, I report them after the match, end of story.

I see people giving out coords and I report THEM. Eventually the problem children will be punished and that's good enough for me. Some people will always insist that they have the right to play however the hell they want, it's in this thread, it's in every single thread on this subject for the past few years now, some people simply refuse to follow the rules. So we report them, for hiding to run out the clock in Skirmish or for giving out coords, both are reportable, both will get you in trouble if you do it enough times.

And once again, your video is NOT the same as the OP, two very different situations.

[Lunatic_Asylum]

Here is the conversation (look at the date stamps). Basically I reported myself twice, as far as I understand:

My email (June 20):
"The story:
We had a match where the outcome was not in our favor. As the last 'Mech, I found a sweet spot where my LRMs could reach people below me, and people above me could not see me well. I powered down (said "I shall hide with honor" to "Die with honor!"), and then 1 person in my team revealed my position. My intention was to shut down, wait, and kill.
I only had time to type in the team chat that I needed to hide, and a moment after, I was revealed to the enemy by a team mate. Who violated ToS, if did, here?"

GM Patience (June 23):
"Powering down your 'Mech for the purpose of letting the clock run out and maintaining your K/D ratio does not fall within the intended spirit of the shutdown mechanic, and is considered an act of non-participation.
"Hide with honor" goes against our Code of Conduct.
Regards"

My email (June 23):
"I powered down only for a second before a member revealed my position. I was powered down to make an ambush and kill the rest of the 'Mechs. I was not intending to preserve my Kdr or waiting until the timer runs out. "hiding with honour" was a rephrased "Die with honour" from a member who was trying to end match immediately. I did not have time to write my intentions. Is writing "hiding" really forbidden so that teammates can reveal and report you immediately, and you were planning to hide and ambush the enemy with honour, killing as many as you can?
P.S. (after reading the forum):
I have just found what PGI stated about shutting down:

• It's not really against the rules. If someone does this repeatedly to the point where it starts griefing other players, we will investigate further of course. Otherwise, it's a perfectly sound strategy to shut down and hide if it'll net a win.
  
• So if you run and hide without ever engaging, that is non-participation. If you fight to the best of your abilites and hide when there is no way for you to win anymore, that is perfectly fine.

But the other guy in the team just reported my location after a couple of seconds of my being shut down (as seen in the original picture) for an ambush (is it a Team Treason, or is it allowed to give out location of members preparing an ambush?)"









GM Patience (July 10):
"Thanks for your feedback. The Code of Conduct is being evaluated and the non participation rule will be updated.
Regards"

I sent a message asking the meaning of the words and repeating the initial story. I should expect an answer in a month, I guess.

END



What does that mean?! How is nonparticipation rule updated, and how is the CoC evaluated?! I kept everything in one thread with the same support ticket, answering e-mail messages consecutively. Can someone translate Patience's words for me? Why is he avoiding answers at all and says something that cannot be understood at all?
Did it take one month to compose that message and update "the report on me by me"?

I would like to have an official answer, but I am afraid that if I were to write to any other Mechwarrior e-mail address, I would be answered by GM Patience and get into a loop of reporting myself...

Edited by Lunatic_Asylum, 09 July 2015 - 06:13 PM.

[Aim64C]

Lunatic_Asylum, on 09 July 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

What does that mean?! How is nonparticipation rule updated, and how is the CoC evaluated?! I kept everything in one thread with the same support ticket, answering e-mail messages consecutively. Can someone translate Patience's words for me? Why is he avoiding answers at all and says something that cannot be understood at all?

The only thing I can interpret from it is that, at least in the case of this individual, PGI is siding with those who just want the match to be over with. If your chosen strategy prolongs the game and makes other players upset, then you are in the wrong.

He is basically saying that your interpretation of the rules to allow what you did is not what they want people doing, and so they will look at changing it to reflect the way that is valid for you to play their game.

Not that I agree with that - but that is part of the consequence of the chosen game mechanics they run with. Single-elimination team deathmatch has always been a very intense gaming environment and it is one of the worst modes to use as the core of your gaming experience. It's very high pressure and the cost of someone experimenting with an unfamiliar build or grinding a new 'mech is that the team can often suffer (or course, a team's loss is generally solidified by an unwillingness to work together more so than individual pilot skill or design - but still...). The cost of someone using legitimate "last man" tactics that make sense from a SERE standpoint (even if you ultimately can't escape the box canyon and have to meet your fate) is that everyone has to wait for a player to use tactics deliberately designed to stall for time and drag out combat to force one-on-one scenarios in situations favorable to the stalling player. Which makes everyone else wait to see how the tournament will pan out.

What I'm reading gives me no reason to suspect that this individual (perhaps reflecting PGI's views) considers your strategy something to be valid within their game.

Quote

Did it take one month to compose that message and update "the report on me by me"?

It's hard to say. He probably only works a few days out of the month, whoever he is; at least in the moderator function.

It's also possible that this person had to run the issue past someone like Russ - and we know how condescending and vindictive he can be (he gives me a run for my money, except it's like his default mode).

Or it could also be that he filed it away for one of the server technicians to look up records of your matches and that it just took that long for someone to get around to pulling the match in question, reviewing it, and getting back to you about it. That's the optimistic outlook.

Quote

I would like to have an official answer, but I am afraid that if I were to write to any other Mechwarrior e-mail address, I would be answered by GM Patience and get into a loop of reporting myself...

I'm not sure if that's how it's seen. It didn't seem like this individual was counting this as an instance of you 'reporting' yourself. IE - I doubt your name is on some kind of a list of wrong-doers over it.

Though I could be wrong.

What is more concerning to me is that he didn't seem to address the issue of them reporting your coordinates so quickly. That should not have happened - you were not running to protect your K/D ratio (they shouldn't even have the damned thing in their statistics if they don't want people to be worried about it) and you were obviously still active. Even if that isn't how they want you to play the game - I'd say that your 'misinterpretation' of the rules is the lesser offense in the issue.

I think I used their support feature once.

I don't think I ever received a response back (or I just stopped caring about it by the time they did respond). Granted, I later wore some egg on my face over it because I was effectively seeing pink elephants - but you live and learn.

In general, though, when I contact anything via e-mail based support, I generally get a response from some lobotomized policy robot that likes to quote rules and regulations that I specifically cite, myself, and ask specific questions about. So I've kind of given up on any web based support.

[FatYak]

stjobe, on 19 June 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

To summarize, then:
* Non-participation is against the ToS.
* Team Treason (calling out a team member's position) is also against the ToS.
* Powering down is not against the ToS.
* Communicating to your team mates what you're doing is not against the ToS.

Seems to me this whole thing could have been avoided by the OP telling his team what he was planning to do.

Yes...blame the OP for someone else breaking the rules....

[Mystere]

Lunatic_Asylum, on 09 July 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

GM Patience (June 23):

This mod seems to have a habit of contradicting what other mods have said. Guess who I am not listening to?

Lunatic_Asylum, on 09 July 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

GM Patience (July 10):
"Thanks for your feedback. The Code of Conduct is being evaluated and the non participation rule will be updated.
Regards"

Of course it is. I wonder who forced the issue?

Lunatic_Asylum, on 09 July 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

What does that mean?

Well, I hope it means he is no longer issuing any more contradictory "guidance" until PGI clarifies the issue.

Aim64C, on 09 July 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

What is more concerning to me is that he didn't seem to address the issue of them reporting your coordinates so quickly.

That is what I have noticed.

Edited by Mystere, 09 July 2015 - 08:42 PM.

[Slepnir]

The problem with reposting private emails is the fact you get conflicting answers from different moderators.

The only thing that is contractual and legally binding is what the official posting say as regards COC/TOS.

The problem really is perception, if it appears PGI isn't going to enforce punishment for team treason or other violations then the community , out of nothing but frustration, will start retaliating in game againts each other(looks like we need a 1v1 dueling arena).

[Raggedyman]

Lunatic_Asylum, on 09 July 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

GM Patience (July 10):
"Thanks for your feedback. The Code of Conduct is being evaluated and the non participation rule will be updated.
Regards"

This bit of information pleases me greatly, as there will hopefully be a removal of any ambiguity on what you can and can't do (not that there ever was on giving out co-ordinates, regardless of what Team Precious Little Snowflake says)

[Raggedyman]

Slepnir, on 09 July 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

The only thing that is contractual and legally binding is what the official posting say as regards COC/TOS.

Check the TOS again. The only contractual and legally binding thing is that PGI can enforce the rules however they see fit, at any time and in any way.

A change in the COC does not affect the TOS, the only thing a change in the CoC might do is change some of the players attitudes towards these things.

[Idealsuspect]

a hacker, on 20 June 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Yes it's normal.

Stop powering down like a **** and fight.

Mystere, on 20 June 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Let idiots remain idiots.



Who are you to dictate to anyone else how to play?

In COD he can't powerdown, also what kind of fps MWO is?