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20 Ton Mech Balancing (Locust, Mercury, Flea, Stinger, Wasp, Thorn)


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Poll: which of the following mechs would you support by buying ? (78 member(s) have cast votes)

which of the following mechs would you support by buying ?

  1. Flea (41 votes [18.39%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.39%

  2. Mercury (30 votes [13.45%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.45%

  3. Thorn (26 votes [11.66%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.66%

  4. Stinger (41 votes [18.39%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.39%

  5. Wasp (48 votes [21.52%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.52%

  6. Valkyrie (37 votes [16.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.59%

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#1 Fat Jack Murphy

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 11:10 AM

as a old light mech nut, the MASC will bring back an old topic: what to do to make the "rather useless" flea working...

if you dont know what this is about:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flea
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mercury
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Locust
http://www.sarna.net...orn_(BattleMech)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stinger
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wasp
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Valkyrie

currently the only 20 ton mech we have is locust, which goes 120kph by default and is upgradeable with a 190xl to 170kph (add endo, ferro, double heat sinks, otherwise its rather useless). I had matches where I exceeded 800 damage on a locust, i had matches where the first LB20X stopped me dead in tracks with 0 damage. its a high stakes gamble there... using them frontally gets you killed very fast. run around, attack rear, disappear, rinse and repeat.

the MASC option brings two other superlights back into discussion and that discussion might make the thorn, wasp, stinger and valkyrie interesting too.
yes, again - at 20 tons an AC20 is a deaths knell (pun intended). just dont get seen then:


the Mercury (MCY-97, MCY-98, MCY-99)essentially is a better locust, so with 190XL as highest engine would make the locust uninteresting. but it has MASC. so one idea would be to limit it to a 175XL movementwise (half way between standard and 190XL on locust) and add ECM slot on the MCY-99 or 2 AMS Slots to make it desireable.

the Flea is another thing. its 20 tons only. its slow (90 kph). but: it is a dead cheap mech.
and the "fire ant" variant would make a cool hero mech (even though the original is 3058 only).
to leave a niche to both mercury and locust, it would be cool if this mech does get limited to e.g. 150 or 160 engines, but would receive two significant MASC buffs: it should be able to run on MASC for a longer time (MASC damage buildup -30% ?) and get a significant MASC run boost (15% ?) to make it surviveable (and reach the same speed as locusts - close to 174kph). Also - its natural small profile should be the same "tiny" chassis scale as the urban mech. A Wolf Dragoons Paintjob would also rock. Variants acceptable are FLE-4, FLE-14 and FLE-17

The Thorn is by design a light support mech, so it might work if it can get similar speed as locusts and run with S-SRMs or artemis, but i`m still wondering what to do with it. its slow, no MASC and no jump jets, but a cool design. Tiny Frame might be one thing. More slots for Modules another. THE-F, THE-N, THE-S, THE-T would offer some variants to build
It is in direct competition by design with the Valkyrie, which is 5 tons heavier and slower still, but jump capable. Moving a VAL QF e.g. to streak boating might be one idea to make them useful.
the valkyrie might be a small mech template. still no idea which buffs to put on to it. The fact it only has a QA, QD and QF variant in 3050 are a bit limiting.

Stinger (STG-3R, STG-3G, STG5M) and Wasp (WSP-1A, WSP-1D, WSP-1K, WSP-1L, WSP-1S, WSP-1W) are two old Mainstay Units of all Battletech Lore Units, so those would also Roc-k. Tiny Frame again might be an option, Wasp is more anti infantry themed, so might be fun to run with flamer or Streak SRM2. a stinger is possibly the tiniest laser vomit machine possible, or a excellent example for MGs with armour. extra slot for modules might be needed at their low speeds to e.g. mount the target deprevation. question here would be the rights to the looks from the "other mech game". the stingers old boxy head shape would be sweet, too.
another idea to make them worth having would be some e.g. 10% faster target lockon bonus or significant sensor range bonus or something like that or 2-3 AMS as a support duty mech. i remember setups with 3 Med Lasers or 4 smalls and 2 AMS on my stingers from CBT. worked well there, might not work well in here. a third consumeable slot e.g. for a second UAV might also be a nice option to make them useful as scouts.. WSP-1W should come with a wolf dragoons paint job :D
then again, the copyright issues on the design should be a real issue if not solved by now.



so how to finance this thing from a PGI perspective ?
the flea might have enough lovers to get a 20/40 USD urbie package on its own.
Mercury and Thorn are SLDF mechs, so might go well with a SLDF themed package as a bonus item etc.
Stinger and Wasp might also have enough old-timers as fans that they pay off on themselves...
Or - make it a package for 20 ton lovers, e.g. "ultra-lights" and add the KOTO as bonus item and motivation with a fancy solaris themed airbrush paint job.

another idea for seeding superlights would be to make them available (with mech bay) as tournament prize) and adding a raider game mode where both a time limit (prohibitive enough to make 90 kph a must as minimum speed) and the task of picking up and running with a prize make the mode interesting to use with light mechs, since their main tasks never was to participate in frontal assaults or as a fighter in a skirmish, but more of a rear arc raider, scout or other support roles. so tag range bonus or ECM range bonus would also make sense.


Ideas, Feedback ?

Edited by Fat Jack Murphy, 20 June 2015 - 11:15 AM.


#2 Hoffenstein

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 01:30 PM

What about using these 20 tonners as AI units?

#3 Christopher Hamilton

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 01:52 PM

Artificial Intelligence isnt. Same as Military Intelligence :P

#4 Kishida Sato

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 02:37 PM

i like the raid idea.
my favourite mechs are raven and jenner, so comes with the territory :)
since only stinger and wasp saw service with kurita... well... i would get the others, too, eventually, but rather not be seen in a wolf dragoon paint scheme. Ryuken-Ni command will likely get us shot on court martial for that.

Edited by Kishida Sato, 20 June 2015 - 02:39 PM.


#5 Tarogato

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 04:33 PM

Can't ignore the fact that the Wasp, Stinger, and Valkyrie are Unseen. Either we can't have them, or they'd have to be completely redesigned.

#6 Alardus

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 11:23 PM

Quote

Light ’Mechs
Light ’Mechs range in weight from 20 to
35 tons. On the battlefield, light ’Mechs serve
most often in reconnaissance roles.
Their
above average speed and jump capability
make them well-suited to efficiently avoid
heavy fighting while maneuvering to assess enemy troop formations.

Despite their many assets, however, light ’Mechs rarely
manage to stand against heavier units, even with the advantage
of numerical superiority.




Medium ’Mechs
The workhorses of the armies of the
Inner Sphere, medium BattleMechs range in
weight from 40 to 55 tons. On the battlefield,
medium ’Mechs form the core of almost every
unit or formation. While light ’Mechs scout out
battlefield terrain and enemy forces, medium ’Mechs wade in
and slug it out with opposing troops until the heavy and assault
units arrive.

Heavy ’Mechs
Heavy ’Mechs weigh from 60 to 75 tons.
Usually piloted by commanders and experienced
MechWarriors, they play a major role on
the battlefields of the Inner Sphere. Heavy
’Mechs can dish out and take immense
amounts of damage, and so only another heavy or an assault
’Mech usually can successfully take on a typical heavy
BattleMech.

Assault ’Mechs
Assault ’Mechs, weighing from 80 to 100
tons, are the kings of the thirty-first-century
battlefield. So fearsome are these behemoths
in battle that one assault ’Mech is often equal
to an entire lance of lighter ’Mechs. The pilot
of a well-designed assault ’Mech fears no
opponent in the field, and the ’Mech’s physical attacks can cripple
nearly any target.


Bolded and underline relevant. Light mechs dont need MASC, as has been demonstrated by yourself. Light shouldn't need to go 150+kph to be "viable". If you want to be some unhittable super unit running and gunning, you don't understand lights. Customed lights are already extremely powerful as is.

I'm just pointing out the flaw in the idea that light mechs are useless, when you also state making 800+ damage in a locust, when lights have no real right to do that, except because people can custom up their mech to go full ****** speeds.

#7 Iain Black

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 05:12 AM

800+ in a locust means someone was hitting and running a lot or chewing assaults while they where engaged.

according to the theory stated above, firestarters with default engine must rock in CW. right now all map scenarios severely favour the mediums and heavies, which would change with larger maps. that part is under way.

a 20 ton mech currently needs speed, definitely. if you want to contest that, put a 100 rated engine in a locust for a few c-bills and have a try. should cure that opinion after 50 or so drops...

also dont forget that most lights by default come with speeds of 100kph, a speed which a leveled timber wolf or splatcrow easily reaches, too.
the same is true for a cicada (which is essentially a uparmoured locust) or a 295XL BJ-1X with 8 med lasers. at that speed, they are just targets for them with the little armour a 20ton mech has.

Edited by Iain Black, 21 June 2015 - 05:16 AM.


#8 50 50

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 03:41 PM

A few more 20 tons mechs would be nice and I'd love to see the unseen mechs in the game.
The Wasp was a bit of a favourite back in the day.

Given their status, I'm all for a redesign so we can have them.
The art team at PGI has done some brilliant work, I'm sure they could come up with something.

With the new MASC system, it stands to reason that mechs could receive quirks for it.
It will be interesting to see what happens in this regard over the next few months.

#9 IraqiWalker

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 04:33 PM

View PostAlardus, on 20 June 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:


Bolded and underline relevant. Light mechs dont need MASC, as has been demonstrated by yourself. Light shouldn't need to go 150+kph to be "viable". If you want to be some unhittable super unit running and gunning, you don't understand lights. Customed lights are already extremely powerful as is.

I'm just pointing out the flaw in the idea that light mechs are useless, when you also state making 800+ damage in a locust, when lights have no real right to do that, except because people can custom up their mech to go full ****** speeds.


All I want to say here is that the Locust is supposed to go 320+Kph with MASC, and 200+ without. Locusts are getting shafted. So are many lights that have their speed gimped to 150 or 170 tops. (It has more to do with the fact that HSR gets REAL funky at speeds above 180 Kph, than anything else.)

Our lights are not Extreme. Not even close. I've had better custom monstrosities in TT.

#10 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 03:08 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 21 June 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

All I want to say here is that the Locust is supposed to go 320+Kph with MASC, and 200+ without. Locusts are getting shafted. So are many lights that have their speed gimped to 150 or 170 tops. (It has more to do with the fact that HSR gets REAL funky at speeds above 180 Kph, than anything else.)

Our lights are not Extreme. Not even close. I've had better custom monstrosities in TT.

The vast majority of stock lights won't ever see 150 kph, let alone 200 kph or higher. Just because you can min-max them into that speed doesn't mean they are supposed to go that fast.

One particular Locust variant (LCT-6M) could go 226.8 kph with a boost up to 302.4 kph with MASC. As far as I know, that's the fastest 'Mech ever. The rest of the Locusts shouldn't be going anywhere near that fast. And other lights should only be dreaming of reaching that kind of speed.

And getting the LCT-6M into the game? No. Even if the engine could handle it, there is no need. Maybe if the maps were double or triple the current size there would be a need to scout and bring lights into the role they are supposed to be playing.

And yes, I'm a Locust pilot. I own seven of the damn things.

#11 IraqiWalker

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 04:31 PM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 22 June 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

The vast majority of stock lights won't ever see 150 kph, let alone 200 kph or higher. Just because you can min-max them into that speed doesn't mean they are supposed to go that fast.

One particular Locust variant (LCT-6M) could go 226.8 kph with a boost up to 302.4 kph with MASC. As far as I know, that's the fastest 'Mech ever. The rest of the Locusts shouldn't be going anywhere near that fast. And other lights should only be dreaming of reaching that kind of speed.

And getting the LCT-6M into the game? No. Even if the engine could handle it, there is no need. Maybe if the maps were double or triple the current size there would be a need to scout and bring lights into the role they are supposed to be playing.

And yes, I'm a Locust pilot. I own seven of the damn things.


True, most locusts don't go above 150, but why on earth do you run stock only? Even in TT I can count the times we ran stock mechs in tourneys, campaigns, or regular games on two hand.

Also, in this game. Lights should be going much faster. They need it. I do agree that we need even bigger maps, even if speeds stay as they are, I want maps that are twice as big as Alpine, even bigger, if possible.

Last, you should join us int he Underrated Locust thread. It's become quite the social club for locust pilots, and light mech activity in general.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 22 June 2015 - 04:31 PM.


#12 Fat Jack Murphy

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 04:58 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 22 June 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

True, most locusts don't go above 150, but why on earth do you run stock only? Even in TT I can count the times we ran stock mechs in tourneys, campaigns, or regular games on two hand.

Also, in this game. Lights should be going much faster. They need it. I do agree that we need even bigger maps, even if speeds stay as they are, I want maps that are twice as big as Alpine, even bigger, if possible.

Last, you should join us int he Underrated Locust thread. It's become quite the social club for locust pilots, and light mech activity in general.


regarding stuff from the TT, i want the assassin, specter, marauder, warhammer, falcon, the savannah master and the P-Hawk-LAM :) nothing says "zoooooom" as much as "15 hexes jumped. +5 to hit. partial cover, standing in woods. thanks. i just get +3 jumped on my to hit."
but you definitely need huge maps to make use of that. and yes, stuff isnt even close to our minmaxings.
7/11/7+MASC would be nice in here...

the only stock mech that ever really rocked was the FS9-M Mirage. which should be a hero. honestly. wait....



*evil grin*

Edited by Fat Jack Murphy, 28 June 2015 - 05:15 AM.


#13 IraqiWalker

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 06:07 AM

View PostFat Jack Murphy, on 28 June 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:


regarding stuff from the TT, i want the assassin, specter, marauder, warhammer, falcon, the savannah master and the P-Hawk-LAM :) nothing says "zoooooom" as much as "15 hexes jumped. +5 to hit. partial cover, standing in woods. thanks. i just get +3 jumped on my to hit."
but you definitely need huge maps to make use of that. and yes, stuff isnt even close to our minmaxings.
7/11/7+MASC would be nice in here...

the only stock mech that ever really rocked was the FS9-M Mirage. which should be a hero. honestly. wait....



*evil grin*

XD you had me at Assassin.

#14 Fat Jack Murphy

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:25 AM

not to forget clint, phoenix hawk and vulcan. the infernal lower medium trio...

#15 That Guy

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 02:13 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 22 June 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:


True, most locusts don't go above 150, but why on earth do you run stock only? Even in TT I can count the times we ran stock mechs in tourneys, campaigns, or regular games on two hand.

Also, in this game. Lights should be going much faster. They need it. I do agree that we need even bigger maps, even if speeds stay as they are, I want maps that are twice as big as Alpine, even bigger, if possible.

Last, you should join us int he Underrated Locust thread. It's become quite the social club for locust pilots, and light mech activity in general.


you are kind of missing a big issue here. lights should not be going faster, everything else should me moving slower. going 130+ right now in a light is only a requirement because all the heavies and assault mechs have no trouble tracking even an orbiting light because of their very fast turn speeds and torso rotations.

#16 no one

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 02:43 PM

In order for 20 ton 'Mechs to have any place in CW the drop decks need to be expanded beyond 4. Have two of the bays able to accommodate any combination of 'Mechs that weighs less than 65 tons or something. Ammo weight limits in CW preclude any sane person taking a missile light.

#17 Kishida Sato

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 03:12 AM

i like the idea of e.g. you get a fifth bay in your drop deck if the first 4 are below 180 tons and a 6th if the first 5 are below 180 tons.

but then that would allow 6 waves of light rush again....

anyway - anything that lets me get into a stinger is a good thing.

#18 Strum Wealh

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 04:30 PM

View PostThat Guy, on 28 June 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

you are kind of missing a big issue here. lights should not be going faster, everything else should me moving slower. going 130+ right now in a light is only a requirement because all the heavies and assault mechs have no trouble tracking even an orbiting light because of their very fast turn speeds and torso rotations.

What would you say would be an appropriate traverse rate for a 'Mech torso? :huh:

For reference, I've seen a number of sources state that the traverse rate of the M1A2 Abrams' turret is on the order of 40 degrees per second - that is, it would take approximately 9 seconds for the turret to turn all the way around.
(I've also heard of similar values given for the British Challenger's turret.)

Given that a 'Mech can also turn in place at a presumably-comparable rate (where the actual rate is determined by the Engine's rating) as well as swing its arms reasonably quickly (if they are unlocked & both arms have Lower Arm Actuators), most 'Mech should be able to track most potential targets reasonably well (subject to the capabilities of the pilot/player).

#19 IraqiWalker

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 04:38 PM

View PostThat Guy, on 28 June 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:


you are kind of missing a big issue here. lights should not be going faster, everything else should me moving slower. going 130+ right now in a light is only a requirement because all the heavies and assault mechs have no trouble tracking even an orbiting light because of their very fast turn speeds and torso rotations.

No not really. Every MWO mech is moving by canon speeds. Some are actually moving slower than they should.

#20 Burktross

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 04:46 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 12 July 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

No not really. Every MWO mech is moving by canon speeds. Some are actually moving slower than they should.

qft





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