180 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

So as we all know aside from weighing 3 tons more the IS Gauss behaves exactly like the Clan Gauss. Otherwise, they are exactly the same. What if PGI raised IS gauss hitpoints and lowered its explosion damage a little bit? Or maybe just one or the other. Rationale is the extra 3 tons is used to aid in weapon shielding/explosion containment. Clans stripped it because their XLs aren't so fragile, and something something.

Its a slight buff that makes putting Gauss in IS XL side torsos not so suicidal, but will be far from game breaking as it literally behaves the same as the Clan Gauss otherwise.

I think its fair... doesn't involve neutering the Clan Gauss at all..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 July 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Ursh]

No, most of the clan mechs that can equip gauss can only equip one. There are multiple IS mechs that can do dual gauss effectively.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ursh, on 01 July 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

No, most of the clan mechs that can equip gauss can only equip one. There are multiple IS mechs that can do dual gauss effectively.

Really? Clan mechs that can use two:

Ebon Jaguar
Timber Wolf
Executioner
Warhawk
Dire Wolf
Hellbringer with intense armor stripping

IS mechs that can use two:
Jager
K2
King Crab
Cataphract
???

[Water Bear]

Ursh, on 01 July 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

No, most of the clan mechs that can equip gauss can only equip one. There are multiple IS mechs that can do dual gauss effectively.

Wut? Mechs such as the Dire Wolf, Timber, that new crouchy thing...?

And yes to OP, but balancing the C and IS Gauss rifles is no more pressing in my mind than balancing C and IS tech in general. Although the approach of doing that balance item-by-item sounds like a good one, so IMO your idea ain't bad.

[Hit the Deck]

I can agree with that although I proposed for more (removing IS charge mechanics but increasing its CD to >6s).

[Ursh]

The clan 60 tonner can do dual-gauss, with very little ammo.

Other than the Warhawk or Dire Wolf, they cant do it without big sacrifices in ammo or armor.

None of them can do it with super high-mounted hardpoints like the jager can.

On a side note, have seen so many fail jagers that went dual gauss and then waltz around the battlefield as if I'm not going to blow out their side torso. You're supposed to hill hump.

[Gas Guzzler]

Water Bear, on 01 July 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Wut? Mechs such as the Dire Wolf, Timber, that new crouchy thing...?

And yes to OP, but balancing the C and IS Gauss rifles is no more pressing in my mind than balancing C and IS tech in general. Although the approach of doing that balance item-by-item sounds like a good one, so IMO your idea ain't bad.

Hit the Deck, on 01 July 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

I can agree with that although I proposed for more (removing IS charge mechanics but increasing its CD to >6s).

Yeah, I just also see it as a way to lessen one of the biggest downsides of IS mechs, which is the single side torso loss thing. It makes putting a Gauss in the side a big risk, and that risk simply is much less for Clan mechs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ursh, on 01 July 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

The clan 60 tonner can do dual-gauss, with very little ammo.

Other than the Warhawk or Dire Wolf, they cant do it without big sacrifices in ammo or armor.

None of them can do it with super high-mounted hardpoints like the jager can.

On a side note, have seen so many fail jagers that went dual gauss and then waltz around the battlefield as if I'm not going to blow out their side torso. You're supposed to hill hump.

Ebon Jaguar can do it no problem, with one high mount. Timber Wolf can do it with skimped armor on one side and a JJ. Not the end of the world mind you, you can throw a side away. Executioner can do it with a shaved arm and some other trimmings, its not ideal, but either is the CTF with its knuckledrag hard points or Gauss in the XL torso or the K2 with either a small standard or an XL (Gauss in each torso = glass cannon).

I would argue the Ebon Jaguar is actually a better dual gauss platform than the Jager to be honest. It doesn't really matter though, we aren't talking about Jager vs Clan mechs anyway. You are basically saying "IS has dual gauss Jager so no" as if the Jager was some OP comp mech when in reality it is just a run of the mill dual gauss platform occasionally seen in pugs that makes little to no impact on the game as a whole.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 July 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yeah, I just also see it as a way to lessen one of the biggest downsides of IS mechs, which is the single side torso loss thing. It makes putting a Gauss in the side a big risk, and that risk simply is much less for Clan mechs.

It's just as risky for Clan to put a Gauss in a side torso as the IS to do so, they explode and take out the side torso regardless of whether it's Clan or IS. Now, Clan can use XL's SAFELY with Gauss while the IS can't, but that's due to nature of Clan XL vs IS XL and that's not really something that needs to be changed. Just remember to put CASE on your IS Mech's side torso that has Gauss on that side, either in the torso or the arm, unless you have XL of course.

Some things don't need to be balanced out, just because you don't LIKE the disparity doesn't mean it needs to be changed.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Really? Clan mechs that can use two:

Ebon Jaguar
Timber Wolf
Executioner
Warhawk
Dire Wolf
Hellbringer with intense armor stripping

IS mechs that can use two:
Jager
K2
King Crab
Cataphract
???

Effectively use Dual Gauss:

Clans:

EBJ
WHK
DW

IS:

K2
JM6
CTF-3D
CTF-4X
KGC
MAL


If we want to get silly about what can do it:

Clans:

MDD
HBR
EBJ
TW
WHK
EXE
DW

IS:

FS9
BJ
ENF
QKD
JM6
CPT
CTF
MAL
KGC

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 July 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

It's just as risky for Clan to put a Gauss in a side torso as the IS to do so, they explode and take out the side torso regardless of whether it's Clan or IS. Now, Clan can use XL's SAFELY with Gauss while the IS can't, but that's due to nature of Clan XL vs IS XL and that's not really something that needs to be changed. Just remember to put CASE on your IS Mech's side torso that has Gauss on that side, either in the torso or the arm, unless you have XL of course.

Some things don't need to be balanced out, just because you don't LIKE the disparity doesn't mean it needs to be changed.

I mean... you kind of contradicted yourself there at the beginning (Its just as risky for Clans..../Clans can do it safely and IS can't).

You can say "just because you don't LIKE the disparity.." about a lot of things. You could say that to all the people who whined about poptarting as well, or about certain mechs being utterly useless, etc. I just thought it would be a cool subtle way to balance the fact that IS gauss weighs 3 tons more and has no advantage whatsoever.


CASE does not help an IS mech with an XL and a Gauss in the torso, and if I want to put Gauss in a heavy mech I want an XL otherwise why bother using that mech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 01 July 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Effectively use Dual Gauss:

Clans:

EBJ
WHK
DW

IS:

K2
JM6
CTF-3D
CTF-4X
KGC
MAL


If we want to get silly about what can do it:

Clans:

MDD
HBR
EBJ
TW
WHK
EXE
DW

IS:

FS9
BJ
ENF
QKD
JM6
CPT
CTF
MAL
KGC

WHAT??? Firestarters can run dual gauss? If you are putting that there you better add Nova and Summoner to the clan list.

I'm 100% confident a dual Gauss timby can out Gauss the K2 and both CTFs no problem. The only reason that doesn't happen is because you can use a better build on the Timber Wolf so most people don't bother.

Mauler isn't out yet, but if you want to include announced mechs, you can add Orion IIC and Hunchback IIC to the Clan list

Also don't split up Cataphract variants to skew your argument, if you want to play that game you get 4 mechs for EBJ, 5 for Dire, and 4 for Warhawk so don't go down that road.

Are we talking effective or competitive, because if you want to talk competitive, its really on EBJ, Dire, and JM6 (questionably!) Based on "effective" you can dual gauss effectively in a Timber or an Executioner or a Hellbringer, there is nothing stopping you, you just have certain non-vital components gimped a little bit.

Can't wait to read your response to this!

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 July 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[Deathlike]

There needs to be some advantage to IS Gauss or some disadvantage to Clan Gauss to balance both of them out, REGARDLESS of chassis.

Currently, Clan Gauss is simply a straight up upgrade from IS Gauss.

1) Less tonnage and crit requirements
2) Crit requirements reduce the chance to explode indirectly (6 vs 7 crits) More crits means more chances for the weapon/equipment to be hit (IS DHS is somewhat better than Clan DHS for doing that, but then again, Clan DHS is great for crit saving and for legs).
3) More or less same stats otherwise


The only advantage IS Gauss has over Clan Gauss has more to do with Battlemech vs Omnimech construction rules...

A large weapon on the arm of a Clan Onmimech removes the use of the lower arm actuator... the thing that provides arm articulation. IS Battlemechs don't suffer from that as you keep arm articulation for the most part (Victor+Highlander comes to mind).

On the other hand, you'd need a special variant to run w/o the required actuator (Victor-9B and 9S, Highlander-733C) to fit an AC20 on it. For Clan Mechs, you could enable/disable it if you're not using a large weapon on the arms.

Of course, this can be avoided by putting the weapons in the torsos (which work just fine for both IS/Clans).

So, right now an IS Gauss buff or a Clan Gauss nerf should be considered... even if it is slight.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

I mean... you kind of contradicted yourself there at the beginning (Its just as risky for Clans..../Clans can do it safely and IS can't).

You can say "just because you don't LIKE the disparity.." about a lot of things. You could say that to all the people who whined about poptarting as well, or about certain mechs being utterly useless, etc. I just thought it would be a cool subtle way to balance the fact that IS gauss weighs 3 tons more and has no advantage whatsoever.


CASE does not help an IS mech with an XL and a Gauss in the torso, and if I want to put Gauss in a heavy mech I want an XL otherwise why bother using that mech.

I use Gauss without using XLs, but then again, I personally consider anyone running IS XLs in Heavys or Assault a freaking moron, so what do I know? Risk vs Reward, with IS XL, the risk is simply far to high in the big Mechs. My dual Gauss Jager does just fine with a standard engine, CASE and some Meds on it. People get upset when they blow my side off and I keep on firing at them instead of blowing up like every other Jager Gaussx2 does. You don't NEED to haul a lot of ass when you've got dual Gauss, after all, you can reach out and touch someone from a LONG way off. And that's the point of Gauss isn't it, killing targets from a nice safe distance, out of reach of other weapons? They sure as hell ain't good brawling weapons with that charge up(which I like now, go figure right?), so keep your distance and smack in the cockpit at 1km out, that's my philosophy.

And the Clan Gauss IS a flat out upgrade of the IS Gauss, what's the problem there? ALL Clan Tech is an upgrade, did you guys miss that point of Clan vs IS Tech? Lighter, smaller, better, usually hotter though, but not always. That smaller, lighter Clan Gauss still explodes JUST as easily as the IS version and does the same damage when it explodes.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 July 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

I use Gauss without using XLs, but then again, I personally consider anyone running IS XLs in Heavys or Assault a freaking moron, so what do I know? Risk vs Reward, with IS XL, the risk is simply far to high in the big Mechs. My dual Gauss Jager does just fine with a standard engine, CASE and some Meds on it. People get upset when they blow my side off and I keep on firing at them instead of blowing up like every other Jager Gaussx2 does. You don't NEED to haul a lot of ass when you've got dual Gauss, after all, you can reach out and touch someone from a LONG way off. And that's the point of Gauss isn't it, killing targets from a nice safe distance, out of reach of other weapons? They sure as hell ain't good brawling weapons with that charge up(which I like now, go figure right?), so keep your distance and smack in the cockpit at 1km out, that's my philosophy.

And the Clan Gauss IS a flat out upgrade of the IS Gauss, what's the problem there? ALL Clan Tech is an upgrade, did you guys miss that point of Clan vs IS Tech? Lighter, smaller, better, usually hotter though, but not always. That smaller, lighter Clan Gauss still explodes JUST as easily as the IS version and does the same damage when it explodes.

I guess I just don't see the down side of making the IS version a little less fragile (because there isn't a downside!!). If that is your playstyle that's cool, I'm just interested in making more Mechs viable. Variety is the spice of life!

And yeah I run IS heavies with XLs all day! Not a moron, just know how to play em.

TBH guys if your argument is "This change in bad because the IS has 1 or 2 more mechs that can run two Gauss rifles without stripping a lot of armor" I don't really feel that justifies anything... maybe try to find a different reason?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 July 2015 - 01:35 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

I guess I just don't see the down side of making the IS version a little less fragile (because there isn't a downside!!). If that is your playstyle that's cool, I'm just interested in making more Mechs viable. Variety is the spice of life!

And yeah I run IS heavies with XLs all day! Not a moron, just know how to play em.

Gauss is Gauss man, it's the downside of the weapon, it's deadly as hell at long ass ranges, BUT, let a fly fart on it and it blows up and takes half your Mech with it, Clan or IS We've got people screaming for nerfs on the Gauss, last thing we need is to make it 'better' in any manner, those folks will probably have heart attacks! Hmm, you know, you may be right, maybe we SHOULD get the IS Gauss to be toughened up a bit

And you Gas are exactly the sort of player I love on the enemy team

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 July 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

Gauss is Gauss man, it's the downside of the weapon, it's deadly as hell at long ass ranges, BUT, let a fly fart on it and it blows up and takes half your Mech with it, Clan or IS We've got people screaming for nerfs on the Gauss, last thing we need is to make it 'better' in any manner, those folks will probably have heart attacks! Hmm, you know, you may be right, maybe we SHOULD get the IS Gauss to be toughened up a bit

And you Gas are exactly the sort of player I love on the enemy team

Ha ha ha ha


Bring it.



In any case, I'm not asking for the risk to completely go away, it still blows up, I just propose a little less damage, and a little harder to blow up. Putting a Gauss in the XL torso will still be a high risk for death.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 July 2015 - 01:39 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

Ha ha ha ha


Bring it.

Love to, but we're both working for Kurita, and the DCMS gets kinda pissy about killing each other...no fun at all sometimes, those Dracs... Hopefully we can dance sometime again, I've seen you on the field before, I'm sure it happen again. I'm waiting on my connection at home to get fixed, line issue somewhere between the pole and switch box 1/2 mile away from the house. Sucks, haven't been able to play since last week....*sigh*...go blow something up for me!

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 July 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

Love to, but we're both working for Kurita, and the DCMS gets kinda pissy about killing each other...no fun at all sometimes, those Dracs... Hopefully we can dance sometime again, I've seen you on the field before, I'm sure it happen again. I'm waiting on my connection at home to get fixed, line issue somewhere between the pole and switch box 1/2 mile away from the house. Sucks, haven't been able to play since last week....*sigh*...go blow something up for me!

Will do! as soon as I'm off work

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

</p>
So as we all know aside from weighing 3 tons more the IS Gauss behaves exactly like the Clan Gauss.  Otherwise, they are exactly the same.  What if PGI raised IS gauss hitpoints and lowered its explosion damage a little bit?  Or maybe just one or the other.  Rationale is the extra 3 tons is used to aid in weapon shielding/explosion containment.  Clans stripped it because their XLs aren't so fragile, and something something.

Its a slight buff that makes putting Gauss in IS XL side torsos not so suicidal, but will be far from game breaking as it literally behaves the same as the Clan Gauss otherwise.

I think its fair... doesn't involve neutering the Clan Gauss at all..

I'll go one further and say that all items should get a number of hitpoints based on how many critical slots they take up (and maybe even their weight).This way all of those bulky, crit slot guzzling IS items have at least some kind of a tiny offset to the pure superiority of Clan equipment.