460 replies to this topic

[B L O O D W I T C H]

forgive me, i havn't read through all the replies.

OP this is as stupid as it can get.
A clan gauss rifle is not an IS gauss rifle. It is supposed to be better then an IS gauss by default.
If you do demand that an IS gauss rifle should be on the same level as a clan gauss riftle.
give back the opportunity to change upgrades, engines, armor and weapons on IS mechs.
while we're at it, give back elite and basic skills.
give back all your modules too.
you're quirks.. too

that are all things that IS mechs ARE NOT supposed to have by default.
a clan medium pulse is different from an IS medium pulse.
A clan XL is different from an IS XL (which your are not supposed to have in most of your mechs)
Clan double heatsinks ar different from IS double heatsinks (which your are also not supposed to have in most of your mechs)

So don't you dare come and try to point out some "ballancing" issues with something which is not ballanced by default.
Or the clans might come and actually point out all the little things which turn a basic IS stockmech into an quirked, elited, custom endo/fibro/engine/weaponry/whatnot "battle" mechs, into something which is actually able to compete with a clan'mech.
IS virtually has mechs which fire their gauss rifle twice, i repeat, TWICE as fast as it is supposed to fire.

you know? all the things IS mechs, unlike a clan gauss rifle, are not supposed to have or be.

[Damocles]

OP Post and ran.

You all got slaughtered in the driveby.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 13 July 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

You mean like the +20% ballistic CD a Warhawk can get for Gauss that weighs 3 tons less per gun?


For the record that's more than any Jager can get, more than any Cataphract and more than any King Crab - while using dual Gauss.


I'm not saying the WHK is OP, far from it, but I just wanted to stop by and point out how ridiculous trying to use quirks as an excuse for being able to save 3 tons per Gauss.

Yet, it still loses 4 tons compared to IS Dual Gauss robots because of dem heatsinks.


It pays for those quirks.

[Eider]

Those 10% quirks on is weapons, OP!! --says clanners running around with half a torso thanks to xl engine and longer range weapons including ballistics that just got buffed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Yet, it still loses 4 tons compared to IS Dual Gauss robots because of dem heatsinks.


It pays for those quirks.

and is paid back, in spades by clan XL, and all the rest. Don't think argentina's gonna cry for ya on that. Besides, swap a gauss for 2 ERPPC. Not quite as fast a projectile, but 20 PPFLD with unlimited ammo and no charge mechanic. Oh, and suddenly those DHS ain't wasted.

Perfectly sync'd? No, but a lot more versatile.

While faster than them Gauss Jagers. And tougher.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 July 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 July 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

and is paid back, in spades by clan XL, and all the rest. Don't think argentina's gonna cry for ya on that. Besides, swap a gauss for 2 ERPPC. Not quite as fast a projectile, but 20 PPFLD with unlimited ammo and no charge mechanic. Oh, and suddenly those DHS ain't wasted.

Perfectly sync'd? No, but a lot more versatile.

While faster than them Gauss Jagers. And tougher.

OR, drop 10 tons of heatsinks, take more ammo, and an ERPPC on top of it all.


Oh, wait, it's an Omnimech, it can't. It can't even swap the terrible Ferro for the always superior Endo, costing ~2 tons for no good reason (and making armour be in weird decimal values).



It gets 20% better RoF (not 30, but the same +17 for every robot) instead of 10(15) damage with more ammo.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

OR, drop 10 tons of heatsinks, take more ammo, and an ERPPC on top of it all.


Oh, wait, it's an Omnimech, it can't. It can't even swap the terrible Ferro for the always superior Endo, costing ~2 tons for no good reason (and making armour be in weird decimal values).



It gets 20% better RoF (not 30, but the same +17 for every robot) instead of 10(15) damage with more ammo.

oh rats, so it's only MILDLY better than the IS competition. So sorry. When did you become a crutch rider Mc?

Which is Mech is running around at 70 kph with 2 Gauss and an ERPPC that has you so worried??

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 July 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[SgtMagor]

apples and oranges!

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Yet, it still loses 4 tons compared to IS Dual Gauss robots because of dem heatsinks.

The magic is it still remains superior to those other builds and mechs, with the exception of the Crab and only if the Crab goes slower with a STD engine - and even more to the point big quirks for Gauss aren't only found on the faction that has heavier Gauss.


That was the thread title after all.



Clan Gauss Rifle - 3 Tons Lighter With No Drawbacks

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 July 2015 - 05:42 PM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

In all regards to the gauss jager/ gauss hawk. the gauss hawk only has to expose about 60% if it's tiny and hard to hit direwolvesque body. to fire both rifles on target.
while the highly inferior gauss jager can hardy see his target if he peeks over a ridge.

apples and oranges.

also, if you do want 20% cooldown on ballisitics you havee to use both ballistic arms on a warhawk. there is one variant which can have a laser in it's CT, so up to two backup lasers (medium or small pulse) together with a TC1 a warhawk can carry 2 er medium and about 7 tons of ammo (which lasts through about 5 minutes of of the game, which is okay since 5 minutes for a warhawk without getting either boths arms or the CT destroyed is actually pretty darn good)

at least those 2 backuplaser run pretty cool with 20 not changeable heatsinks. yep 10 tons of unwanted heatsinks, but it saves 3 ton per gauss, so hey.. warhawk op pls nerf math.

Edited by LOADED, 13 July 2015 - 05:57 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 July 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

oh rats, so it's only MILDLY better than the IS competition. So sorry. When did you become a crutch rider Mc?

Which is Mech is running around at 70 kph with 2 Gauss and an ERPPC that has you so worried??

You were wrong; on multiple counts no less.


I call people out when they're bullshitting for their own agenda.

Ultimatum X, on 13 July 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

The magic is it still remains superior to those other builds and mechs, with the exception of the Crab and only if the Crab goes slower with a STD engine - and even more to the point big quirks for Gauss aren't only found on the faction that has heavier Gauss.


At some point I think you need to come to terms with the fact that perfect optimization for your clam mechs isn't in the cards, because it would be ridiculous.

I'm just stating some facts, which are often happily ignored because it doesn't suit their agendas.


King Crab got smaller quirks because it got boatloads of hardpoint inflation, if you're forgetting. From 4 hardpoints to 10. Had it stayed at 2 ballistic, 1M and 1E, I'm sure it would have gotten better quirks. Probably that 20% number, instead of 7.5%.


That's PGI's prerogative.
They're doing the same thing to the IIC robots...which, just so happens to be EXACTLY what you're saying. Fully open Clam construction. With hefty hardpoint inflation, but PGI didn't give the Heavies separate Ballistic hardpoints, so no effective Dual Gauss with a cXL.

[LordNothing]

i run clan and is mechs interchangeably and they seem about on par.

[Cementi]

Prosperity Park, on 13 July 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

The Clan Gauss Rifle weighs 3 tons less than the IS version. What are the balancing factors used to compensate for this?

Does it have a slower charge-up time? No.
Does it have a slower recycle time? No.
Shorter range? Less damage? No. No.
Does it take up more slots? No, opposite, it takes up fewer slots.
Does it explode more easily? No; in fact Clanners get 0-tonnage CASE on every arm and torso section to boot.
Does it cause more internal damage when it explodes? No.


Does it do anything at all that balances the 3 fewer tons and 1 fewer slot? No.

When can we expect a change to this situation?

(This is not an IS player whining, this is a video gamer scratching his head in wonder)

My JM6-A with its +10% ballistic speed and +20% ballistic range is completely ok with the extra tonnage and extra crit space......... My optimal range with modules is almost 900m and max is well over 2k. Yep I am fine with the differences (heh at the time of this post I am on a clan contract but I prefer my IS mechs).

[Mister Blastman]

Stop. Just stop.

[Zordicron]

Kain Demos, on 13 July 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

......... I realize they will never STFU.

This here some real deep game forum wisdom. *raises glass

I do like to prod at the spreadsheet warriors though, horse blinders FTW! Nothing could ever go wrong balancing in a vacuum! Especially the ones with really, really bad perceptions of how the game works and flat out misinterpretations of the data we have.

[Cementi]

Also my response to all IS complaints about Clans is look at the Clan hit boxes. With the exception of the Stormcrow every single mech, even the Timberwolf (mickey mouse ears), has incredibly oversized and easily defined hit boxes. Super easy to pick them apart, especially when the majority of their weapons cause increased face time.....oh wait actually other than ssrms they all do. Volley fire AC's, longer burn duration lasers, streaming lrms. Just about every weapon system on clans forces them to stare at you for longer than you have to stare at them on top of them having HUGE hit boxes.

Stop with the spray and pray and start picking those components.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

You were wrong; on multiple counts no less.


I call people out when they're bullshitting for their own agenda.



I'm just stating some facts, which are often happily ignored because it doesn't suit their agendas.


King Crab got smaller quirks because it got boatloads of hardpoint inflation, if you're forgetting. From 4 hardpoints to 10. Had it stayed at 2 ballistic, 1M and 1E, I'm sure it would have gotten better quirks. Probably that 20% number, instead of 7.5%.


That's PGI's prerogative.
They're doing the same thing to the IIC robots...which, just so happens to be EXACTLY what you're saying. Fully open Clam construction. With hefty hardpoint inflation, but PGI didn't give the Heavies separate Ballistic hardpoints, so no effective Dual Gauss with a cXL.

waiting for you to spell out the agenda sugar plum, and what was I wrong on? Pretty sure every thing I said was factual. And since I am not glued to one faction or another, can't really see what agenda that would be...unless it's the "actually balance the dang game" agenda?

And that, my dear McGral, can only be done starting from the bottom up......

Also waiting with bated breath for you to reveal that dreaded IS Dual Gauss PLUS ERPPC you are threatening. Not talking the KGC are you? Because you know..:DireWolf?

Cementi, on 13 July 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Also my response to all IS complaints about Clans is look at the Clan hit boxes. With the exception of the Stormcrow every single mech, even the Timberwolf (mickey mouse ears), has incredibly oversized and easily defined hit boxes. Super easy to pick them apart, especially when the majority of their weapons cause increased face time.....oh wait actually other than ssrms they all do. Volley fire AC's, longer burn duration lasers, streaming lrms. Just about every weapon system on clans forces them to stare at you for longer than you have to stare at them on top of them having HUGE hit boxes.

Stop with the spray and pray and start picking those components.

Yes...and how many of the Meta TBRs run missiles.... because Missiles are so meta?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 July 2015 - 06:07 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 July 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

waiting for you to spell out the agenda sugar plum, and what was I wrong on? Pretty sure every thing I said was factual.

You shouldn't be against Clams swapping Ferro for Endo, so I'm not entirely sure. I thought you didn't want the Summoner to be gimped.


Wrong on the quirk number, and somehow thinking 35 PP FLD that overheats in two shots is better than 40 PP FLD that can fire 4 salvos before going down to a completely heat neutral 30 PP FLD.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

You shouldn't be against Clams swapping Ferro for Endo, so I'm not entirely sure. I thought you didn't want the Summoner to be gimped.


Wrong on the quirk number, and somehow thinking 35 PP FLD that overheats in two shots is better than 40 PP FLD that can fire 4 salvos before going down to a completely heat neutral 30 PP FLD.

still waiting for the dreade IS platform doing that, especially while moving 70?

And I'm not against the endo/ferro.

I'm against the BS crap clan apologists use to obscure basic balance issues. Bad quirks don't change the fact the foundation is flawed because the Clan Gauss compared to the IS Gauss IS better in every way. Quirks are window dressing added after the fact, and a separate issue (though related). Constantly obfuscating the basic tech issues with them is highly disingenuous.

When dealing with balance...you start at the foundation, and work your way up. The foundation has been skewed since before the clans arrived.

Also, oddly, my WHK doesn't overheat every two salvos...you might want to trade yours in...apparently it's defective.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 July 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Ultimatum X, on 13 July 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Neither the Cataphract nor King Crab have high ballistic mounts.


The Jager does, but with Dual Gauss it goes about WHK speed with IS XL and big STs that any good player can it.

Oh I agree, I'm just saying the IS Gauss Rifle and Clan Gauss Rifle are pretty well balanced if you compare the Jaegar and Grid Iron to your typical clan gauss builds.

The high mounts + quirks stack up pretty well against clan perks + clan XL.

My problem is that people are trying to compare just the weapon systems which makes no sense.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 July 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

still waiting for the dreade IS platform doing that, especially while moving 70?

And I'm not against the endo/ferro.

I'm against the BS crap clan apologists use to obscure basic balance issues. Bad quirks don't change the fact the foundation is flawed because the Clan Gauss compared to the IS Gauss IS better in every way. Quirks are window dressing added after the fact, and a separate issue (though related). Constantly obfuscating the basic tech issues with them is highly disingenuous.

When dealing with balance...you start at the foundation, and work your way up. The foundation has been skewed since before the clans arrived.

Also, oddly, my WHK doesn't overheat every two salvos...you might want to trade yours in...apparently it's defective.

Actually you seem to really be the only apologist here; and an aggressive one at that. The point most people raised is consider the weapon system with perks with high mounts as it is really the combination of those that leads to overall balance.

You're the one who jumped in here and started insulting everyone.

Edited by Blueduck, 13 July 2015 - 06:14 PM.