49 replies to this topic

[Sazabi Steppenwulfe]

Nerf this, nerf that. band-**** aren't going fix that fact that some mechs in the Battletech universe very simply dominate (Timberwolf, Black Knight,..). Just because it's 100 tons and armed with dual whatevers, doesn't mean said machine will guarantee you victory over everyone. i don't know how many brawler builds I've dismantled with old school Battletech fits that take advantage of weapons that offer over lapping ranges/fields of fire or better heat management that allows one to shot a main weapon almost continuously. True, the current nonsense with Stormcrow hit boxes needs to be addressed and do IS XL engines really need to be so explody? i got a better idea. How about we advance the time line to a point were (most) Omni mechs are available to IS factions. you could also take care of so many issues at once instead of care-bear fixing to please the E-sport crowd... actually, there's no please them.

just my 2 centz

Edited by Steppenwulf, 15 July 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[FupDup]

IS Omnimechs are actually pretty bad in most cases. Things like hardwired SHS, STD engine on a 40 ton medium, no Endo on 35 ton light, double hardwired CASE on 40 ton medium and an XL heavy with Mad-Dog sized side torsos, IS XL on 90 ton assault with HUGE torsos, etc.

[El Bandito]

PGI can't even balance the current amount of weapons and mechs. How the heck do you expect them to balance all the new weapons and mechs existing in 3067?

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 16 May 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

IS Omnimechs are actually pretty bad in most cases. Things like hardwired SHS, STD engine on a 40 ton medium, no Endo on 35 ton light, double hardwired CASE on 40 ton medium and an XL heavy with Mad-Dog sized side torsos, IS XL on 90 ton assault with HUGE torsos, etc.

BJ-O makes me sad.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 May 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

BJ-O makes me sad.

Lol, 50 tonner permanently stuck at Warhawk speed.

[martian]

FupDup, on 16 May 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

Lol, 50 tonner permanently stuck at Warhawk speed.

You should try to play BattleTech. Blackjack Omni is BV-cheap firesupport platform that sacrificed speed for pod space. Check BJ2-OA with twin LRM-20 launchers. Or BJ2-OB with Gauss Rifle and LRMs. Direct fire support BJ2-OD. Or my favorite BJ2-OE with Light Gauss Rifle, ER Large Laser and LRMs.

It doesn't need speed to do its job.

[Y E O N N E]

martian, on 16 May 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

You should try to play BattleTech. Blackjack Omni is BV-cheap firesupport platform that sacrificed speed for pod space. Check BJ2-OA with twin LRM-20 launchers. Or BJ2-OB with Gauss Rifle and LRMs. Direct fire support BJ2-OD. Or my favorite BJ2-OE with Light Gauss Rifle, ER Large Laser and LRMs.

It doesn't need speed to do its job.

You are right, it doesn't need speed to do its job. It does, however, need to be able to take a hit. The Jagermech, which the BJ-O is essentially a miniature version of, gets absolutely shredded in MWO even with a Standard engine and more armor potential. What do you think would happen to the BJ-O?

[Xetelian]

There is nothing 'old school' battle tech fits can do against an equally skilled opponent in the same mech but optimized. Take the Stock HBR prime, its a mess, swap some pods fit 7 lasers on it and boom you've just given yourself a shot at doing 100+ damage. This game just doesn't translate to FPS without some sacrifices and we can all agree there are some things that don't hold the burden of sense but still..if it is built meta it'll out perform something that isn't every time.

Yeah, I'd love to see us jump ahead.

Edited by Xetelian, 16 May 2015 - 11:12 PM.

[martian]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 May 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

It does, however, need to be able to take a hit.

It can carry 338 points of rmor, as any other 50-tonner in MWO.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 May 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

The Jagermech, which the BJ-O is essentially a miniature version of, gets absolutely shredded in MWO even with a Standard engine and more armor potential. What do you think would happen to the BJ-O?

I presume that you are talking about how often they shred you and your JagerMech in MWO.

My experience with the JagerMech is quite different.

Anything else?

Yeonne Greene, on 16 May 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

What do you think would happen to the BJ-O?

It would find its niche as any other 'Mech in MWO?

[Y E O N N E]

martian, on 16 May 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:

It can carry 338 points of rmor, as any other 50-tonner in MWO.

Any other 50 tonner, you mean the ones that typically run over 80 kph, erring closer to 90, and only run slower when they pack in a Standard engine?

Quote

I presume that you are talking about how often they shred you and your JagerMech in MWO.

My experience with the JagerMech is quite different.

Anything else?

Weak. Getting shredded does not mean one isn't also putting out damage and getting kills, it just means the 'Mech doesn't sustain damage very well. Against players who know how to keep on-location with laser burns, the Jager loses arms and side torsos very fast because it is flat and broad. That and high-mounted hardpoints are why it is typically played as a Gauss sniper. The 3x UAC/5 build is good if nobody pays attention to you, but it requires you to be in places where risk is high. Generally, triple UAC/5 Jagers are fodder.

Quote

It would find its niche as any other 'Mech in MWO?

And still be non-competitive.

Anything else?

[martian]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Any other 50 tonner, you mean the ones that typically run over 80 kph, erring closer to 90, and only run slower when they pack in a Standard engine?

Is it so hard for you to imagine that not all 50-tonners must occupy the same niche? I can assure you that that there are other roles for them.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Weak. Getting shredded does not mean one isn't also putting out damage and getting kills, it just means the 'Mech doesn't sustain damage very well. Against players who know how to keep on-location with laser burns, the Jager loses arms and side torsos very fast because it is flat and broad. That and high-mounted hardpoints are why it is typically played as a Gauss sniper. The 3x UAC/5 build is good if nobody pays attention to you, but it requires you to be in places where risk is high. Generally, triple UAC/5 Jagers are fodder.

The first example of Blackjack Omni that I listed is configuration with twin LRM-20s. That means that your argument concerning flat and broad 'Mechs falls flat. If enemy can't see you, it doesn't matter what shape your 'Mechs has.
Sorry.

And one thing that you probably have not realized: Blackjack Omni is OmniMech. that means that in MWO you would combine various omnipods to get desired hardpoints. You don't have to play it as JagerMech at all times.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

And still be non-competitive.

Anything else?

Not much. The fact that "some people" seems to be uncompetetive in JagerMechs does not mean that everybody sucks in using them. Really.

[bad arcade kitty]

what
you want both, being able to change hardpoints as mwo omnimechs and engines/upgrades as mwo battlemechs? and also you want to use is xl engines freely? you are simply wanting too much

[martian]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 May 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

what
you want both, being able to change hardpoints as mwo omnimechs and engines/upgrades as mwo battlemechs? and also you want to use is xl engines freely? you are simply wanting too much

What are you talking about?

[Y E O N N E]

martian, on 17 May 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

Is it so hard for you to imagine that not all 50-tonners must occupy the same niche? I can assure you that that there are other roles for them.

Nothing I said implies they should all fill the same niche. What I did imply is that they will be flat-out superior because they have the options to not be slow and fragile, which are far more potent weapons than any guns you stuff into the pods.

Quote

The first example of Blackjack Omni that I listed is configuration with twin LRM-20s. That means that your argument concerning flat and broad 'Mechs falls flat. If enemy can't see you, it doesn't matter what shape your 'Mechs has.
Sorry.

It doesn't fall flat, because you are going to have to deal with the Lights that inevitably come hunting four you. Lights that you cannot outrun even briefly and that can actually laser away your squishy side torso in two full shots. Furthermore, it's an example of a 50 ton 'Mech with a largely ineffective weapon system that is hot, heavy, unreliable, and imprecise. The implicit hiding you are suggesting for that build is also not going to maximize the utility of the LRMs. If that's how you use LRMs, then I do not want you on my team because you are basically 50 tons of dead weight using the rest of the team as a crutch.

Quote

And one thing that you probably have not realized: Blackjack Omni is OmniMech. that means that in MWO you would combine various omnipods to get desired hardpoints. You don't have to play it as JagerMech at all times.

I realize a great many things. I realize that there are only three hard-point types and that the Jagermech or even the regular Blackjack were available with all three across the variants. I realize that some weapon systems have trade-offs in range, heat, spread, duration, firepower, and rate of fire that require various combinations of agility, geometry, weight, and armor to overcome. These weapons don't care if your 'Mech is an OmniMech or a standard BattleMech; they only really care about that 'Mech's core characteristics: torso yaw/pitch, speed, armor, geometry, and movement archetype.

And that's what you are missing. That your individual robot is a system of parts, and there are ways that they interact which are optimal at killing the enemy. There are also certain combinations of certain builds of certain robots that are optimal so the team as a whole can be better at killing the enemy. By being locked to a condition of lethargy and fragility, the BJ-O has severely capped potential.

Quote

Not much. The fact that "some people" seems to be uncompetetive in JagerMechs does not mean that everybody sucks in using them. Really.

I don't think you take my meaning for "competitive." By competitive, I mean it's not something the most skilled teams will take to face their peers. They won't take it because it's not the best at filling any particular role and they need the edge provided by using the best chassis-variants to make sure that they have the greatest chance at winning with whatever their team tactics and strategies are.

Can you do well in regular matches with a 50-ton, XL200-locked BJ-O? Certainly. I do just fine in Locusts with only 89 total points of armor or Jagermechs with slow, XL260 engines. But I wouldn't knowingly take either of those things into a serious match against the likes of SJR, EmP, 228th, etc. because it would be under-armored, under-gunned, under-engined, and/or under-weighted compared to the alternatives no matter what role you choose to use it for.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 16 May 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

IS Omnimechs are actually pretty bad in most cases. Things like hardwired SHS, STD engine on a 40 ton medium, no Endo on 35 ton light, double hardwired CASE on 40 ton medium and an XL heavy with Mad-Dog sized side torsos, IS XL on 90 ton assault with HUGE torsos, etc.

You know I think there was something in the Fluff that said House Kurita didn't produce Doubles till like 3058. Which explains why the didn't put them on a Panther coming out of the 3050 gate.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 May 2015 - 03:30 AM.

[martian]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

Nothing I said implies they should all fill the same niche. What I did imply is that they will be flat-out superior because they have the options to not be slow and fragile, which are far more potent weapons than any guns you stuff into the pods.

And Blackjack Omni would have the option to customize its hardpoints which is something what no standard BattleMech in MWO can.
As for those high engine caps, many MWO 'Mechs have high engine caps, but I don't think that all actually use such big engines.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

It doesn't fall flat, because you are going to have to deal with the Lights that inevitably come hunting four you. Lights that you cannot outrun even briefly and that can actually laser away your squishy side torso in two full shots.

Why should fire support 'Mech try to outrun Lights? Assault 'Mechs can't outrun Lights, Heavy 'Mechs can't outrun Lights, only some fast Mediums can outrun slow Lights. (UrbanMech excluded). That's all what your argument proves - and that's not much ...

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

Furthermore, it's an example of a 50 ton 'Mech with a largely ineffective weapon system that is hot, heavy, unreliable, and imprecise. The implicit hiding you are suggesting for that build is also not going to maximize the utility of the LRMs. If that's how you use LRMs, then I do not want you on my team because you are basically 50 tons of dead weight using the rest of the team as a crutch.

Surprisingly, people play with what they want, the way they want, depending on the mood before the mission when selecting 'Mechs, and later the momentary tactical situation in game. And the best thing is that you can't do absolutely nothing with it. LOL

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

I realize a great many things. I realize that there are only three hard-point types and that the Jagermech or even the regular Blackjack were available with all three across the variants. I realize that some weapon systems have trade-offs in range, heat, spread, duration, firepower, and rate of fire that require various combinations of agility, geometry, weight, and armor to overcome. These weapons don't care if your 'Mech is an OmniMech or a standard BattleMech; they only really care about that 'Mech's core characteristics: torso yaw/pitch, speed, armor, geometry, and movement archetype.

You are still failing to realize that while there really are three types of hardpoints, MWO Blackjacks do not have them all. For example, show me MWO Blackjack with missile hardpoints ...

Versatility. This word is often used to describe OmniMechs. You can combine omnipods and hardpoints at will, so you get a combination of hardpoints no standard variant offers.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

And that's what you are missing. That your individual robot is a system of parts, and there are ways that they interact which are optimal at killing the enemy. There are also certain combinations of certain builds of certain robots that are optimal so the team as a whole can be better at killing the enemy. By being locked to a condition of lethargy and fragility, the BJ-O has severely capped potential.

Somehow, people often use other 'Mechs than meta-Mechs and meta-builds. They use what they like. The greatest fun is when they score better than tryhards in their meta-builds.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

I don't think you take my meaning for "competitive." By competitive, I mean it's not something the most skilled teams will take to face their peers. They won't take it because it's not the best at filling any particular role and they need the edge provided by using the best chassis-variants to make sure that they have the greatest chance at winning with whatever their team tactics and strategies are.

Yes, and for example CW is now full of competetive teams, i.e. about a half dozen of them or so.

But I freely admit that you probably wouldn't find Blackjack Omni in your teams that use two types of 'Mechs only: Stalker and Firestarter.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 May 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

Can you do well in regular matches with a 50-ton, XL200-locked BJ-O? Certainly. I do just fine in Locusts with only 89 total points of armor or Jagermechs with slow, XL260 engines. But I wouldn't knowingly take either of those things into a serious match against the likes of SJR, EmP, 228th, etc. because it would be under-armored, under-gunned, under-engined, and/or under-weighted compared to the alternatives no matter what role you choose to use it for.

And the problem is ...?

I dare to guess that the majority of MWO players absolutely doesn't care about such "competetiveness", considering that CW is completely and totally empty. LOL

[KuroNyra]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 May 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

You are right, it doesn't need speed to do its job. It does, however, need to be able to take a hit. The Jagermech, which the BJ-O is essentially a miniature version of, gets absolutely shredded in MWO even with a Standard engine and more armor potential. What do you think would happen to the BJ-O?

Actually, if used correctly, the Jaegger...

Spoiler

...No, not that one, Get the hell out of here!



As I was saying, the Jaeggermech

Spoiler

Yeah, that one.
That one can be deadly if used more has a support mech. You don't want to be focused, think of you has a glass canon.
You pack the punch, not the armor.

Edited by KuroNyra, 17 May 2015 - 03:36 AM.

[martian]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 May 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

You know I think there was something in the Fluff that said House Kurita didn't produce Doubles till like 3058. Which explains why the didn't put them on a Panther coming out of the 3050 gate.

No, the upgraded Kuritan Shilone from 3040s had them.

[Joseph Mallan]

martian, on 17 May 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

No, the upgraded Kuritan Shilone from 3040s had them.

You're right! God that makes teh Panther even worse! 10 Dubs would have made it amazing!

[Triordinant]

Using only 3025 'mechs, weapons and equipment solves all problems... (slips back into the shadows)