147 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Dino Might, on 27 July 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

No doubt. I can't even believe someone said a Raven was better. Firestarter is close, but still not in the same ballpark.

ACH mounts 7 small pulse (clan range small pulse, mind you), and has good heat capacity to fire off 2-3 alphas on the run without shutting down. That's old school FS9-A madness that everyone (rightly) complained about. Now consider it is just as small, if not smaller, and has more open area for shots to pass through, and it can jump much better (good FS9 builds can't mount that many jets). It's a better FS9-A in every way, except maybe duration and the one extra hardpoint, which the ACH makes up for by improved range and hardpoint locations.

All that being said...I'm fine with it as-is. It's the most fun mech to fight against these days. I get tired of eating Dire Wolf and Stalker legs.

55m really that big a difference maker for you? Really?

*sigh*

[Fate 6]

Terciel1976, on 27 July 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

Clan XL...you may not consider it enough, but "every other way" is false.

In comp play this almost never matters because you get legged. It can help against Gauss but it's more of a bait than it is something to rely on. Losing half your mech in a knife fighter that light is pretty much a death sentence in itself.

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Well in a light duel where it's 9 times outta 10 a battle of who legs who first, the FS9 has a clear advantage.

^
Not to mention the fact that the ACH is even more of a knife fighter than the FS9. You're putting yourself in a lot more danger with those CSPLs and CERSLs, or you're not doing nearly as much damage.

If you go for more range than the FS9 using heavier weapons you either end up with 3MPL (ok, not great) or something using ERML and/or ERLL. At this point you might as well use a RVN-4x or RVN-2x. Again, the only thing going for the ACH in this instance is the ECM and JJs. ECM in a light is honestly overrated - you don't need it against LRMs, and a streak boat is going to BAP you or be out of range anyway.

[Gas Guzzler]

Fate 6, on 27 July 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

There are also just better light options. The JJs on the ACH don't make up for the fact that it's just worse than the FS9 or Raven in every other way

Really? I find I am more effective in the cSPL Arctic Cheetah than the FS9.

The RVN-2X does fit my playstyle very nicely though, because I like the range poking, but I REALLY love the Cheetah.

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Well in a light duel where it's 9 times outta 10 a battle of who legs who first, the FS9 has a clear advantage.

Really? The Cheetah has more leg structure and out-DPSes the FS9..

[Fate 6]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Curious...in what way? The FS9-S has the range advantage over SPLs, but less damage.

ACH legs have 10 to 15 additional structure, which cause it to take more fall damage, but also make it have more structure than FS9 legs.

52-57 VS 48, as the FS9 has no structure quirks. Hitboxes aren't larger, are they?



The ACH got NICE quirks.

Damage is the same or in the FS9's favor depending on which FS9 you're using. FS9 is faster and more heat efficient. In a duel it would be pretty close but the range and speed come in to play there, and in a team setting that speed and range is immeasurable.

[TercieI]

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Well in a light duel where it's 9 times outta 10 a battle of who legs who first, the FS9 has a clear advantage.

Sure. But the clan XL is a survivability advantage. As I said, you may not consider it enough, but it is an advantage to the ACH over any IS light.

Fate 6, on 27 July 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

In comp play this almost never matters because you get legged. It can help against Gauss but it's more of a bait than it is something to rely on. Losing half your mech in a knife fighter that light is pretty much a death sentence in itself.

As above...it still is an advantage, though perhaps not enough of one.

[Mcgral18]

Fate 6, on 27 July 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Damage is the same or in the FS9's favor depending on which FS9 you're using. FS9 is faster and more heat efficient. In a duel it would be pretty close but the range and speed come in to play there, and in a team setting that speed and range is immeasurable.

Damage isn't always true, but burn times are.


36 for the 6cSPL, or 42 for the 7 (which is still pretty manageable, even with a Ghost Heat alpha strike).

[Fate 6]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Really? I find I am more effective in the cSPL Arctic Cheetah than the FS9.

The RVN-2X does fit my playstyle very nicely though, because I like the range poking, but I REALLY love the Cheetah.



Really? The Cheetah has more leg structure and out-DPSes the FS9..

1v1 it's close but in a 12v12 the range alone makes the FS9 better. Basically the same DPS, and the FS9 clearly has better sustained damage because of 10 truedubs and potential for more DHS. If you go XL255 in the FS9 you are same speed as the ACH but have very good heat efficiency.

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Damage isn't always true, but burn times are.


36 for the 6cSPL, or 42 for the 7 (which is still pretty manageable, even with a Ghost Heat alpha strike).

7MPL FS9 has same alpha and pretty much equivalent heat but way more range. MPL also has shorter burn time than the CSPL.

[Spr1ggan]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Curious...in what way? The FS9-S has the range advantage over SPLs, but less damage.

ACH legs have 10 to 15 additional structure, which cause it to take more fall damage, but also make it have more structure than FS9 legs.

52-57 VS 48, as the FS9 has no structure quirks. Hitboxes aren't larger, are they?



The ACH got NICE quirks.

I'm talking high level play of course. Solo and group queue depending on the teams etc anything can go.

But with high level comp players. They can make that speed, range, and sustained dps advantage seem a lot larger than the numbers make out. Also if the A was used doesn't it have higher dps and higher sustained fire than the ACH?

This is just my initial impressions of how that match up would play out though. I look forward to seeing actual results when the mech can be used in comp matches.

[Greenjulius]

Fate 6, on 27 July 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

If you go XL255 in the FS9 you are same speed as the ACH but have very good heat efficiency.

Nope... You only go 129.8kph with speed tweak with a XL255. You need a XL280 to match the 142.6kph that the Cheetah gets. 129.8 and 142.6 is a really big difference, and is one of the reasons I don't care for Panthers. (stuck at a measly 250 engine with 127kph)

Dropping from the XL295 max down to a XL280 gives you only an extra ton; 14 vs 15 tons. It's a hard tradeoff in the FS9-S. I've run both, and usually settle on the XL295. No matter what, speed is king in lights.

Go with a XL280 in the FS9-S, equip 5xMPL, and you have 4.5 tons to work with after Endo/Ferro. That can do 5xJJ or a combo of that and DHS, or an extra MPL. It's a great mech any way you build it however.

That said, I prefer the Cheetah over the FS9. The Cheetah can do both short range as well as long range if you mess with your builds. The FS9 doesn't really do mid to long range well, as it's stuck with the just okay FS9-H ML quirks, or mediocre 2xLL builds on the FS9-A and K.

And, it doesn't have those sweet high mounted torso hardpoints. I love those things. Oh, and ECM.

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Also if the A was used doesn't it have higher dps and higher sustained fire than the ACH?

This is a really good question. I haven't seen any formal comparisons, but SPL builds for both have got to be really close after quirks.

Edited by Greenjulius, 27 July 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

I'm talking high level play of course. Solo and group queue depending on the teams etc anything can go.

But with high level comp players. They can make that speed, range, and sustained dps advantage seem a lot larger than the numbers make out. Also if the A was used doesn't it have higher dps and higher sustained fire than the ACH?

This is just my initial impressions of how that match up would play out though. I look forward to seeing actual results when the mech can be used in comp matches.

It shouldn't have more DPS, as the FS9 doesn't get cooldown quirks. Very close, at 11.6DPS for 8 isSPLs for 8, and 12DPS for 6cSPLs.

Using Smurfy stats which I'll assume are semi accurate. No cooldown quirks for either robot, just the 17% from module+FF

Although, the isSPL has the half second duration, compared to 0.75. That's 32 damage in .5 VS 24.
BUT, the ACH also has burn time quirks, marginal ones, up to 5% if you sacrifice 2.5% less heat.

[Spr1ggan]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

It shouldn't have more DPS, as the FS9 doesn't get cooldown quirks. Very close, at 11.6DPS for 8 isSPLs for 8, and 12DPS for 6cSPLs.

Using Smurfy stats which I'll assume are semi accurate. No cooldown quirks for either robot, just the 17% from module+FF

Although, the isSPL has the half second duration, compared to 0.75. That's 32 damage in .5 VS 24.
BUT, the ACH also has burn time quirks, marginal ones, up to 5% if you sacrifice 2.5% less heat.

Wouldn't the 6cspl ACH be running hotter and be more likely to overheat?

Don't get me wrong, i like the 6cspl build from what i've played of it. However it seems more players are going with the 5cspl build.

[Greenjulius]

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Wouldn't the 6cspl ACH be running hotter and be more likely to overheat?

Don't get me wrong, i like the 6cspl build from what i've played of it. However it seems more players are going with the 5cspl build.

It really depends if you take ECM or not. If you take the "C" left torso, it's another 5% heat reduction, which helps a lot with that extra SPL. If you take the Prime LT instead, you lose that heat reduction and may just take 5xSPL instead. I've found that even once the basics are done, 6xSPL is fine even with the ECM pod. It should be easy to run with double basics.

Edited by Greenjulius, 27 July 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[LORD ORION]

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

However it seems more players are going with the 5cspl build.

Only because they don't have the C variant omni pod for the right arm?

Edited by LORD ORION, 27 July 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Spr1ggan, on 27 July 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Wouldn't the 6cspl ACH be running hotter and be more likely to overheat?

Don't get me wrong, i like the 6cspl build from what i've played of it. However it seems more players are going with the 5cspl build.

2*8*.925
=14.8 (32 damage at 132M)

6*3*.875
=15.75 (36 damage at 182M)

5 being 13.125 heat (30 damage at 182M). I'll assume no ECM for a duel? If ECM, only 7.25% less heat.

[Greenjulius]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

2*8*.925
=14.8 (32 damage at 132M)

6*3*.875
=15.75 (36 damage at 182M)

5 being 13.125 heat (30 damage at 182M). I'll assume no ECM for a duel? If ECM, only 7.25% less heat.

It's close all right. In a proper knife fight with nothing but knife fighting essentials, (no ECM obviously) it's really down to the skill of the pilot. However, those super short duration .5 second IS SPLs would probably do better against legs than the ACH can with .75 sec cSPL. It starts to lean in the Cheetah's favor once you hunt larger prey.

Either way, I'd say the Cheetah is a success since we are actually having this conversation. It's the perfect mech to challenge the FS9's unchallenged throne for the past year.

Edited by Greenjulius, 27 July 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Lugh]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Really? I find I am more effective in the cSPL Arctic Cheetah than the FS9.

The RVN-2X does fit my playstyle very nicely though, because I like the range poking, but I REALLY love the Cheetah.



Really? The Cheetah has more leg structure and out-DPSes the FS9..

On paper maybe but that .25 extra burn time on the ACH means that the FS9 twists to mitigate much better and has a full .25 sec less on target time. When you are talking a knife fight that close that .25 is an eternity. And likely means that 'extra' .55 damage from the clan weapon is dispersed on other components than that one single one the FS9 hit ...

And for those without the extra variants ACH version you are down to 5 CSPL which gives you an extra 2! damage. Woot woot.

[Greenjulius]

Lugh, on 27 July 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

On paper maybe but that .25 extra burn time on the ACH means that the FS9 twists to mitigate much better and has a full .25 sec less on target time. When you are talking a knife fight that close that .25 is an eternity. And likely means that 'extra' .55 damage from the clan weapon is dispersed on other components than that one single one the FS9 hit ...

And for those without the extra variants ACH version you are down to 5 CSPL which gives you an extra 2! damage. Woot woot.

The 4th variant not being available is irrelevant once it's out for c-bills. For now, top players and early adopters likely have that 4th variant, so we have to consider it for all builds.

Also, don't forget that the 7xSPL build is very viable, and does 42 damage in an alpha. Even if 1/3 of the alpha misses, that's still 28 damage in .5 seconds, very similar to the FS9's full 32 point alpha completely hitting, which is unlikely at high speeds.

Edited by Greenjulius, 27 July 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Fate 6]

Greenjulius, on 27 July 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

The 4th variant not being available is irrelevant once it's out for c-bills. For now, top players and early adopters likely have that 4th variant, so we have to consider it for all builds.

Also, don't forget that the 7xSPL build is very viable, and does 42 damage in an alpha. Even if 1/3 of the alpha misses, that's still 28 damage in .5 seconds, very similar to the FS9's full 32 point alpha completely hitting, which is unlikely at high speeds.

7SPL is almost exactly the same heat as 7MPL FS9-S (less heat per laser, but also less heat reduciton quirks and has ghost heat on 7th laser) but has longer beam duration and shorter range. 7MPL FS9-S isn't viable because it has terrible sustained DPS as does the ACH with that build (which is compounded that much more by its limited range). The FS9-A isn't viable anymore because it's too short ranged, and the ACH runs into the same problem.

I don't think the ACH is bad by any stretch, but the range difference alone will keep it 1 step behind the FS9-S. Anything longer range than the FS9-S is better done by the Raven. We may see ACH in MRBC in drops that require ECM but since lights pretty much don't need ECM due to their speed (it's nifty but only really prevents the Dorito, something your laser beams pretty much nullify) it's mostly a gimmick.

[Greenjulius]

Don't forget another big difference between the IS MPL and Clan SPL however; 3 seconds vs 2.25 seconds cooldown. Once the Cheetah closes the distance, it should win against MPLs, pilot skill being equal.

[Fate 6]

Greenjulius, on 27 July 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Don't forget another big difference between the IS MPL and Clan SPL however; 3 seconds vs 2.25 seconds cooldown. Once the Cheetah closes the distance, it should win against MPLs, pilot skill being equal.

Cooldown is less significant than beam duration in Light v Light, especially considering the heat of the ACH. Pilot skill being equal it's really just a tossup of who manages to get their lasers to register on the opponents leg first. Because of the poor hit reg on legs in Light v Light, the better heat efficiency and sustained DPS is what ends up winning. Shorter cooldowns only helps if you actually land your shots every time and if you can actually shoot on cooldown (usually you aren't going to line up a shot ever 2.25 seconds).

And lets be honest, in a 1v1 no light wins because given equal pilot skill 1 person dies and the other person only has 1 leg left. In competitive games lights only fight lights to scare them off the rest of the team but your real threat is against slow movers that you can land full alphas on.

We will never be able to say which is better in a 1v1 definitively, but in a 12v12 match the FS9 is better because of range (considering everything else is pretty much equal).