90 replies to this topic

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

Well, the title is a lie. There is no such thing as a cool support guy. Not with LRMs and not with ERLL. There are just kids who have fallen into a trap of simple math, which I shall now gladly explain.

Both teams field 12 mechs. So basically there are 12 people doing damage, which is distributed between 12 mech's armor.

If one person decides to "stay behind and give support" nothing will change for the enemy team. They will still be under fire from 12 mechs.

But for the own team the odds will get worse, because suddenly the same damage (from 12 enemy mechs) has to be divided between just 11 friendly mechs (remember, one stays behind receiving no damage), which results into a higher amount of damage per friendly mech. More damage leads to mechs going down faster, which greatly increases the chances for a loss...

Q: What can I do instead.
A: Simple. Stay with the team and get your fair share of the beating. Put your armor to good use. Afterall, that's why they put armor on mechs in the first place!

Q: But, but ... I like my lurmz.
A: Get familiar with the role of a skirmisher. Use Mechs like this or this one (there are many more). Stay behind your Heavies and Assaults, fire your LRMs at 300-400m. Win.


Disclaimer: I'm not denying that there are situations, where this whole support-role-thingy actually works. But for the vast majority of Pugs the text above applies quite well.

[990Dreams]

I must disagree. There are some people (including myself) who dominate just doing this.

Granted I do other things too, but that isn't the point.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 08 August 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Acierocolotl]

If you expect a light mech to be in the front lines, getting smacked around in turn, intentionally seeking to get shot so you don't have to, boy howdy are you going to be sorely disappointed with the results.

Of course that's not exactly what you meant, but then you've got to concede that there's more than one role for a mech than just trading haymakers, which means that business about the 12 mechs and none of them "support roles" kind of falls by the wayside.

So let me keep it punchy: there's more than one role than just trading blows in a rousing game of LLAS peek-and-poke.

[Audacious Aubergine]

I can sort of see OP's point. My most effective mech, especially for my "blind idiot" playstyle, is a Mad Dog B. 2x Streak SRM 6 on one torso, LRM 20 w/Artemis on the other, 4 small pulse lasers as "backup", a tag and an active probe for screwing over ECM. Fast enough to get in and out of trouble, and those streaks tend to be quite good Light hunters

[stealthraccoon]

I see what you are saying, and I agree to an extent that people who hide in the back and don't contribute aren't exactly helping the greater good. But don't forget that not every chassis is setup for "tanking". My urbies can't soak up damage for long, but I'm good at distracting the enemies to keep them from focusing all their fire or the heavies and assaults. Personally if I'm still standing at the end of a match with ammunition in my magazines and armor still attached to my hide, I didn't do enough.

[Skarlock]

Sthtopokeon, on 08 August 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Well, the title is a lie. There is no such thing as a cool support guy. Not with LRMs and not with ERLL. There are just kids who have fallen into a trap of simple math, which I shall now gladly explain.

Both teams field 12 mechs. So basically there are 12 people doing damage, which is distributed between 12 mech's armor.

If one person decides to "stay behind and give support" nothing will change for the enemy team. They will still be under fire from 12 mechs.

But for the own team the odds will get worse, because suddenly the same damage (from 12 enemy mechs) has to be divided between just 11 friendly mechs (remember, one stays behind receiving no damage), which results into a higher amount of damage per friendly mech. More damage leads to mechs going down faster, which greatly increases the chances for a loss...

Disclaimer: I'm not denying that there are situations, where this whole support-role-thingy actually works. But for the vast majority of Pugs the text above applies quite well.

What I do is just murder the isolated LRM boat. Since he's behind the entire enemy team and has minimal defenses up close, any light or medium can just solo him trivially. By staying at the back he has isolated himself, and every time he fires those LRMs he completely gives his position away. The only way to counter this is to stay with the group, and of course that means they are now going to get shot at by the enemy and tank some damage. If people simply adopted this approach more often, it would solve the issue of LRM boats not taking their fair share of damage

[Gamuray]

*ahem* all one needs to do is use a warhawk, and then that support role will be perfectly ok... because people will shoot at the "lrm direwolf" in the background, despite all the people closer to them. Hence why my half laser half lrm warhawk works so darn well. 2 erml, 2 erll, 4 lrm10, bap, ammo, heat sinks, walla.

A support role is one in which you aren't taking the brunt of enemy fire, be it not at all (locust 1v) or not as much (warhawk), but you still need to attract some attention, otherwise, if you don't plan on getting shot, strip that armor, upgrade the engine, load more lrms. That way you're able to compensate for your lack of damage soak by dishing more damage and not dying from being stranded alone.

[Nik Reaper]

Well, yes there are a number of too timid players, who would probly like this to be pve, hell I wold like that mode too, but, you do know that the aggresive more competent player can in fact, after feeling that he has taken too much damage, stay in cover, thus leaving the long range support mech the only target for the enemy team to fire at?
While coordinating even the simplest of manuvers in pug games is hearding cats , more so if not all speak english, stoping a push mid way if it isn't going as planed is an option, and then you let the "support" keep the poke pressure on and let them eat some of the enemy ammo that will probly in part miss due to the distance.

Support has it's use, but it also needs good positioning, advanced zoom, a steady hand, a good loadout and a game that lasts more than 2 min after the engagement starts. So yeah, its not hard to see why it's done wrong many times.

[Kahadras]

At the OP. It's not really that simple IMHO. If I'm carrying a lot of 'support' weapons (like LRM's) then pushing up so I can 'take damage for the team' is just a bad idea as I'm going to be at an increased risk of getting into a close range scrap with the enemy were my LRM's become totally useless. Ideally I want to be about 150 to 200 meters behind the main combat 'blob' were I can provide fire support. My aim should be to force enemy mechs into cover or to tank damage that they can't respond effectively too.

If I'm being a support mech then I don't want to be maxing out armour. Weight saved on a low armour coverage (and XL engine) means I can fit more/bigger missile launchers, more ER Large Lasers, more LRM ammo, more heatsinks etc allowing me do do more damage, faster.

Edited by Kahadras, 08 August 2015 - 04:18 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Sthtopokeon, on 08 August 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Well, the title is a lie. There is no such thing as a cool support guy. Not with LRMs and not with ERLL. There are just kids who have fallen into a trap of simple math, which I shall now gladly explain. Both teams field 12 mechs. So basically there are 12 people doing damage, which is distributed between 12 mech's armor. If one person decides to "stay behind and give support" nothing will change for the enemy team. They will still be under fire from 12 mechs. But for the own team the odds will get worse, because suddenly the same damage (from 12 enemy mechs) has to be divided between just 11 friendly mechs (remember, one stays behind receiving no damage), which results into a higher amount of damage per friendly mech. More damage leads to mechs going down faster, which greatly increases the chances for a loss... Q: What can I do instead. A: Simple. Stay with the team and get your fair share of the beating. Put your armor to good use. Afterall, that's why they put armor on mechs in the first place! Q: But, but ... I like my lurmz. A: Get familiar with the role of a skirmisher. Use Mechs like this or this one (there are many more). Stay behind your Heavies and Assaults, fire your LRMs at 300-400m. Win. Disclaimer: I'm not denying that there are situations, where this whole support-role-thingy actually works. But for the vast majority of Pugs the text above applies quite well.

The problem with your statement is that LRM's isn't just simple math- it's actually the hardest weapon to master in MW: O and the hardest weapon to learn how to use. (steep learning curve, then it flats out, and another steep curve. most people in MW: O with 50 hours+ is at the levelled area, Only a handful is at the 2nd curve)

Beyond that, there isn't a 100% constant of 12 people shooting at the enemies all the time. Hell, most the time it's only 4 people at any time, because everyone is hill humping or can't shoot because there team mates block the way. You also forget the range advantage, 700 meters to 1200 meter combat, LRM boats and some specific snipers can hurt enemies, your typical brawlers can't... must blame the brawlers for not helping the team because they are sitting there dying, suiciding, or nothing am I right?




Last thing: you have no idea what a skirmisher is... you posted a build of a medium LRM boat mech that can't take any punch at all and would die the second it gets in heavy combat. (First one, where most brawlers can core areas and cause ammo explosions in 1 alpha) or do not have any of it's common short range weapons that is part of a skirmisher (second and first).


A skirmisher is a mech that is faster then a typical brawler and has slightly less armour but has about equal damage at all ranges.

What would be more of a skirmisher here would be this or this one (ish). As you can see here. this highly "not optimised not min maxed pieces of s***" in the eye of the competative players is specifically why no one runs skirmishers... they are not meta and are harder to play then LRM boats (however uses the diciplin from LRM'ing)


just the few flaws in the original post... Considering you branded a LRM boat and a sniper as a skirmisher...
Personally neither mech is the best at skirmisher (trebuchet a little more then griffon), a better example would be stock+ versions of the shadowhawk or stalker (to a degree).

Note: part of the 2nd learning curve I mentioned, that menas not simply standing with LRM's and continiously click when you reload and then cry when a jenner comes around. getting some damage near the end of the game to help team mates or to take out key targets is part of what being an LRM boat is.

for the ER large laser arguement- direct line of sight means they can be hit back by enemies, they will take there damage as much as you will.

[IraqiWalker]

stealthraccoon, on 08 August 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

I see what you are saying, and I agree to an extent that people who hide in the back and don't contribute aren't exactly helping the greater good. But don't forget that not every chassis is setup for "tanking". My urbies can't soak up damage for long, but I'm good at distracting the enemies to keep them from focusing all their fire or the heavies and assaults. Personally if I'm still standing at the end of a match with ammunition in my magazines and armor still attached to my hide, I didn't do enough.

I can actually vouch for all of that. Seen him a few times on the enemy team in an urbie. Last time it happened I charged through two other mechs in my centy, just to make sure I put him down quickly.

[SilentScreamer]

Sthtopokeon, on 08 August 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Well, the title is a lie. There is no such thing as a cool support guy. Not with LRMs and not with ERLL. There are just kids who have fallen into a trap of simple math, which I shall now gladly explain.

Both teams field 12 mechs. So basically there are 12 people doing damage, which is distributed between 12 mech's armor.

If one person decides to "stay behind and give support" nothing will change for the enemy team. They will still be under fire from 12 mechs.

But for the own team the odds will get worse, because suddenly the same damage (from 12 enemy mechs) has to be divided between just 11 friendly mechs (remember, one stays behind receiving no damage), which results into a higher amount of damage per friendly mech. More damage leads to mechs going down faster, which greatly increases the chances for a loss...

Q: What can I do instead.
A: Simple. Stay with the team and get your fair share of the beating. Put your armor to good use. Afterall, that's why they put armor on mechs in the first place!

Q: But, but ... I like my lurmz.
A: Get familiar with the role of a skirmisher. Use Mechs like this or this one (there are many more). Stay behind your Heavies and Assaults, fire your LRMs at 300-400m. Win.


Disclaimer: I'm not denying that there are situations, where this whole support-role-thingy actually works. But for the vast majority of Pugs the text above applies quite well.

DavidHurricane, on 08 August 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

I must disagree. There are some people (including myself) who dominate just doing this.

Granted I do other things too, but that isn't the point.

I had a recent match where two enemy Warhawks and a Hunchback started LuRMing at my team. They did so by climbing the mountain of Crimson Strait effectively removing themselves as targets.

Yes they did good damage (600-900) each and got kills too. But as the Original Poster suggests this tactic lost the match for their team. This was public team match, not PUG or CW, so some coordination is expected.

With the 3 enemy mechs out of range the fight looked like this:
Blue ("my") Team
- 3 light 3 medium 3 heavy and 3 assault mechs to deal damage.
- 3 light 3 medium 3 heavy and 3 assault mechs to take hits and spread damage.

Red ("enemy") Team
- 3 light 3 medium 3 heavy and 3 assault mechs to deal damage.
- 3 light, 2 medium, 3 heavy and 1 assault mech to take hits and spread damage.

See the difference? This is simple math. Recognition the the Blue Team has an advantage in "defense".

Both teams have equal firepower but Red team will start loosing mechs sooner because 3 teammates have removed themelves as targets. Good for those particular pilots but very bad for the team. Even a light mech can be useful (by avoiding enemy fire directed at them rather than spreading damage) to increase the life span of their teamates by taking a turn under enemy fire ( not necessarily on the frontline).

Blue team was able to eliminate the 9 Reds that weren't LuRMing, then focus on the remainder. We did take casualties, the LuRM pilots got good scores, but they burned their teamates and lost the match to do it.

Blaming the other 9 Red pilots for "not doing their part" is a half-truth. Yes, their damage suffered, but the LuRM pilots dumped the burden of increased enemy fire. They did their part taking damage that should have been shared by the LRM mechs while the 3 LuRM boats sat up high, undamaged firing volley after volley of missiles at any target lock provided.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 09 August 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

stealthraccoon, on 08 August 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

I'm good at distracting the enemies to keep them from focusing all their fire or the heavies and assaults.

That is just as good. Perhaps it is even a greater contribution to your teams success than tanking damage.

Nik Reaper, on 08 August 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

the aggresive more competent player can in fact, after feeling that he has taken too much damage, stay in cover

I am fine with that.

Kahadras, on 08 August 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

At the OP. It's not really that simple IMHO.

You may find a hint of sarcasm in my original post. I tried to make the whole thing look simple so it would be easier to understand. Apart form that, what you said makes sense to me.

Nightshade24, on 08 August 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Last thing: you have no idea what a skirmisher is...

Not denying the fact that there are people out there, who know better than me. However, I say that my version of the Treb does qualify quite well for the role (however you wanna call it) I mentioned. (Source: Me, having earned 150.000 XP playing that Mech). Naming it "LRM-Boat" does not suit the Mech (Too fast, not enough ammo, not enough Launchers).

[Chados]

I think that the key to LRM use is flexibility. They can be a system that adapts to a variety of different situations.

I was in several PUG matches with me in a Catapult C1. I'm a noob and not very good at the game, mind. But I was dropping with the usual PUG collection of independents. I was on the winning side about half the time. When I was on the winning side, and the team was pushing in and brawlers were brawling, I was within 600 meters of the action raining in missiles both direct and from cover depending on the situation. I racked up medium-low damage numbers but 4-5 assists. When I was on the losing side, invariably I'd been abandoned by my teammates or got separated (once in a truly laughable mess when the matchmaker dropped my heavy mech with three lights that promptly left me to be light-bait) from them either because I did something unforgivably stupid or terrain intervened (i.e. I was the only one without jump jets) and I got left behind, and as a result I got swarmed by superior numbers before I could get to the group scrum. Or I was closing up and trying to lock on for some direct fire and got sniped off by someone I couldn't even see, or the whole lance other than me suicided, leaving me hiding in enfilade trying to fight back one on a bunch....

It's not always the "LRMderps" who need to L2P. ERPPC and gauss rifle snipers are just as bad for that, hill-humping way behind the lines and sniping you off where you can't even see them, and then your side still manages to win for the same reasons that the OP is on about here.

I don't have a problem closing in and using ALRMs like PPCs. I'm armored for it same as most other 65 ton front liners and I prefer being in touch distance of the rearguard so I don't get light-swarmed. I've had my best results when I've been in cover, within 600 meters of the action, but hard to see and kill by the enemy in a fight across a canyon or something. But I also like the flexibility of dropping behind cover and missile bending or using other such tactics, especially when there's intervening cover like a bridge or building. I really like being inside about 400 meters with a line of sight to an un-ECM protected target, where I can use ALRMs and medium lasers at the same time, but that gets you killed fast if you're not careful.

[Rattazustra]

LRMs are one of the most complex weapons systems in the game.

They are easy to learn, but very hard to master.

Ironically most people don't even know that and instead think that there is nothing about them to master in the first place.

Sthtopokeon, your theories on tanking and damage distribution are complete nonsense, btw. What you think may look to you on paper as if it would make sense, but not in actual battle. Never has, never will be. What you say about range though is of course true. Ideal combat range for LRM boats is 200-600 meters.

The best allrounder, medium LRM mech is the Hunchback-4J, btw. 90kp/h, dual LRM10 with ARTEMIS, around 1700 missiles, TAG and tripple small laser backup. Nasty little killer. Followed directly by the Mad Dog with either 4xLRM5+2xLRM10, or 6xLRM5.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

Rattazustra, on 09 August 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Sthtopokeon, your theories on tanking and damage distribution are complete nonsense, btw. What you think may look to you on paper as if it would make sense, but not in actual battle.

Naturally, I disagree. However, if you want to start a discussion, you would need to come up with some sort of argument of your own. Just neglecting mine isn't enough.

Edited by Sthtopokeon, 09 August 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[990Dreams]

SilentScreamer, on 09 August 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

Yes they did good damage (600-900) each and got kills too. But as the Original Poster suggests this tactic lost the match for their team. This was public team match, not PUG or CW, so some coordination is expected.

By dominate I was implying achieving victory, my bad with the phrasing.

I never said I always won or that it works for everyone, but I have a better track record with it than some others would.

[Rattazustra]

You make the assumption that there is a certain amount of damage that needs to be tanked and that spreading that damage to as many mechs as possible is the best way to deal with it. That assumption is wrong because it is based on a passive relation between the observed combatants and their opposition. The best way to deal with incoming damage is not by spreading it, but by reducing the amount of incoming damage altogether. That can be done in many different ways.

Enemy mechs can be scared away from the fight and driven into cover.
They can be confused and blinded with a hailstorm of incoming fire.
They can be systematically crippled to either slow them down, or strip their weapons.
Last but not least they can be destroyed completely.

An LRM can do all these things without deliberately tanking any damage and without rotating to the foremost frontline. In fact, as soon as you have a competent LRM pilot on your team you don't even want him to take too much damage. Unlike most other mechs, many LRM mechs are stuffen up to the ceiling full with ammo that you don't want to see blown up. Many also require an XL reactor, which further diminishes tanking efficiency.

Your approach looks at a static battle, as if two sides of tanks stood face to face on a flat battlefield to slug it out. That would be an unrealistic scenario, though. Your math is simply wrong here. You took 11-12=-1 and assumed that this would pose a problem for the 11 man side. The realistic approach is far more complex, though. You rarely ever have any kind of situation where more than 4-5 mechs are actually involved directly in the fighting. The others stand around looking pretty. They neither dish out damage, nor do they take any. However, in many situations an LRM mech is capable of doing it's thing at times where regular direct fire mechs would stand around passively.

If you want to use a simplified model you can compare the concept to that of a side-scroller. Red comes from the left, blue comes from the right. One mech after the other they slug it out, until the side wins that did a little better during each exchange. If you eliminate skill completely from this model there is a 50:50 chance that either side will win. However, if you add just one LRM mech to one of the two sides, that side will win automatically within that particular simulation. This is the case because every single one of the mechs on that side will not be facing a fresh enemy each step, but instead face already damaged or potentially even dead opponents. That is mathematically the case because a decent LRM mech is able to kill a LOT more than it's own tonnage equivalent. The Hunchback for example has well enough firepower to dispatch up to 4 enemy mechs.

Suddenly your situation is not a tanking imbalance of 12:11 any longer, but one of 8 to 11. The odds shifted against the team that is without LRM support and now there is less damage to tank altogether.

Of course all that assumes competent pilots, but you also need those to make your suggested solution work. If you have unskilled pilots with multi-purpose loadouts, rotating in and out of the hotzone, you will win nothing. You just shift a problem around that has nothing to do with loadouts and roles.

Was that enough of an argument for your liking?

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

Rattazustra, on 09 August 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Was that enough of an argument for your liking?

Yes, thank you.

Rattazustra, on 09 August 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

You make the assumption that there is a certain amount of damage that needs to be tanked and that spreading that damage to as many mechs as possible is the best way to deal with it. That assumption is wrong because it is based on a passive relation between the observed combatants and their opposition.

I do admit that my starting post was simplifying (I'll pick that up later). You say, that it's not just about taking damage, but also about evading, obscuring etc. Granted, but it doesn't change anything. The other team will do the same.
For each argument you have, the immediate question is: "Can the other team do this also?" If yes, it can be left out of consideration.

And now comes the sticking point:

Rattazustra, on 09 August 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

The realistic approach is far more complex, though.

No it isn't.
I agree with you, when you say that a skilled LRM-Pilot is an asset for its team and will perform much better than an average Mech of its size.
In the next match, this lurmer might be on the other team, or one team may hold a superior position or in yet another match one team might be significally more talented than the other. All these are just temporary bonuses.

When we look at increasing numbers of matches these random bonuses will eventually be evenly distributed between the teams and can thus be neglected.

What remains is numbers. And there my simple approach applies.

I can do this simplification because I wanted to give a general advise that is useful in all matches, not a specific tip, for a specific match. ("useful" here means that it is not necessarily the ultimate best thing to do, but at least it will hardly ever be completly wrong).

[bayoucowboy]

Your initial assumption is that all of both teams mechs can apply offensive fire simultaneously. This would be similar to historical tactics of putting your forces in a straight line. Matches and maps rarely give either team this situation. Winning usually comes from 2-3 Vs 1 advantages. While holding back removes defensive/armor advantage, the team can benefit from increased offensive support (similar to traditional artillery). Variations in the defense/offense/mobility balance means "taking your share of the beating" is not a good tactic for all mechs. A better recommendation may be to stay in the fight and focus your fire on enemy mechs engaged with the brawlers.