241 replies to this topic

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Raven has better laser quirks that make it superior as a long range platform."

Ha. Its has +7.5 laser duration. Big deal.

And a +10 narc duration that doesn't actually work (still 30 secs).

[Adiuvo]

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 August 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

"The reason why a short range Raven is bad is precisely due to what you're complaining about."

No, its not. See how that works? Assertion is easy.

Try not to be so vague, make an actual argument, demonstrate that you have some idea what you are talking about.

Why would you bring 2ERLs when you routinely encounter 6-8 small pulse at short range?

It's an assertion using the arguments you provided.

The Raven is bad at short range due to poor hitboxes and lack of horizontal arm movement without the torso twist to compensate. The legs on a Raven are basically a Jenner CT in terms of weakness, only you can't shield your legs. You're basically more fragile in a protracted engagement than a Jenner due to that, and then Jenner is already weak in that situation. It's just worse for the Raven.

Typical Raven short range weapons have little synergy with each other, limiting torso twist opportunities due to desynced cooldowns. It is neither a strong peeker nor a strong brawler due to this split as well, since the grouped alpha from either of its weapons is too low to warrant exposing yourself.

If you're going to bring 2ERLLs the point is not to encounter mechs at short range. Literally, the job of that mech is to sit outside enemy sensor range and just poke all day long, and it's very very good at it. If you want to play short range, bring a FS9 or ACH, both mechs that have the hitboxes and the weapon loadouts suited for it.

[Yosharian]

Adiuvo, on 14 August 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Look at the 2X and 4X.

We're not comparing those mechs. We're comparing the Cheetah with ECM to a Raven with ECM.

The 2X has some of the strongest light mech quirks in the game, but it's still a Raven and it doesn't have ECM.

Edited by Yosharian, 14 August 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Look at the 2X and 4X."

We're talking about the 3L. I haven't seen a 2x or 4x on the field in months, and those were prob just being leveled to unlock elite for the 3L.

I think you are just grasping to protect the newest "crutch" mech.

[Adiuvo]

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 August 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

"Look at the 2X and 4X."

We're talking about the 3L. I haven't seen a 2x or 4x on the field in months, and those were prob just being leveled to unlock elite for the 3L.

I think you are just grasping to protect the newest "crutch" mech.

If you haven't seen the 2X or 4X in months that says a lot, since those variants are entirely better than the 3L

Yosharian, on 14 August 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

We're not comparing those mechs. We're comparing the Cheetah with ECM to a Raven with ECM.

The 2X has some of the strongest light mech quirks in the game, but it's still a Raven and it doesn't have ECM.

The weaknesses of the 3L apply to any Raven in the game. ECM is not valuable enough to warrant taking the 3L over the others or even putting it in a discussion of chassis viability.

It's like using a SDR-5V to discuss SDR viability vs. other mechs. Well, not as extreme, but still the same concept.

[TercieI]

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 August 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

"Look at the 2X and 4X."

We're talking about the 3L. I haven't seen a 2x or 4x on the field in months, and those were prob just being leveled to unlock elite for the 3L.

I think you are just grasping to protect the newest "crutch" mech.

Actually, the 3L is the rarest Raven these days at higher levels of play. ECM is not really that important and all of the others have major advantages over it.

[Vxheous]

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 August 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

"The reason why a short range Raven is bad is precisely due to what you're complaining about."

No, its not. See how that works? Assertion is easy.

Try not to be so vague, make an actual argument, demonstrate that you have some idea what you are talking about.

Why would you bring 2ERLs when you routinely encounter 6-8 small pulse at short range?

Did you just imply that Adiuvo of all people knows nothing about light mechs? SMH

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Did you just imply that Adiuvo of all people knows nothing about light mechs?"

No, I asked him to make a case (which he eventually did) rather than just make assertions.

Are you here to protect him from me? I don't think he needs you to White Knight for him....

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 14 August 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Yosharian]

Adiuvo, on 14 August 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

The weaknesses of the 3L apply to any Raven in the game. ECM is not valuable enough to warrant taking the 3L over the others or even putting it in a discussion of chassis viability.

You personally may not value ECM enough to drive a 3L over a 2X or 4X, but for the majority of people who play this game the reason a Raven is driven over a Firestarter or some other meta light is specifically for ECM.

Your mistake is to assume that your limited experience (presumably at the top level of play, since you say ECM is not valuable) gives you better insight than anyone else. 'Well I don't value ECM so the ACH is fine!'

And that's exactly why this conversation was about comparing the 3L to any ACH build, before you came in and tried to change the goalposts in order to compare it to the 2X/4X.

Edited by Yosharian, 14 August 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"ECM is not really that important and all of the others have major advantages over it."

That doesn't follow - the major selling point of the Cheetah was that clans were finally getting an ECM light.

[TercieI]

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 August 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

"ECM is not really that important and all of the others have major advantages over it."

That doesn't follow - the major selling point of the Cheetah was that clans were finally getting an ECM light.

Not really, it was that they were finally getting a fast light with usable tonnage and hardpoints. More specifically, that it's a pseudo-FS9 that can run clan guns and has a Clan XL. ECM is a nice-to-have, no more.

The KFX and MLX both are ECM capable, too, just flawed/limited in other ways.

Edited by Terciel1976, 14 August 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Vxheous]

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 August 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

"Did you just imply that Adiuvo of all people knows nothing about light mechs?"

No, I asked him to make a case (which he eventually did) rather than just make assertions.

Are you here to protect him from me? I don't think he needs you to White Knight for him....

I am sure he does not, I just find it funny how many people constantly question his knowledge about light mechs here

[Gas Guzzler]

Yosharian, on 14 August 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

You personally may not value ECM enough to drive a 3L over a 2X or 4X, but for the majority of people who play this game the reason a Raven is driven over a Firestarter or some other meta light is specifically for ECM.

Your mistake is to assume that your limited experience (presumably at the top level of play, since you say ECM is not valuable) gives you better insight than anyone else. 'Well I don't value ECM so the ACH is fine!'

And that's exactly why this conversation was about comparing the 3L to any ACH build, before you came in and tried to change the goalposts in order to compare it to the 2X/4X.

I like the triple LL 2X for its great poking capability. It is by far my favorite Raven.

[TercieI]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 14 August 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

I am sure he does not, I just find it funny how many people constantly question his knowledge about light mechs here

So few really top tier players bother to post here, most of the population doesn't even know who they are. It's sad, but understandable.

[Adiuvo]

Yosharian, on 14 August 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

You personally may not value ECM enough to drive a 3L over a 2X or 4X, but for the majority of people who play this game the reason a Raven is driven over a Firestarter or some other meta light is specifically for ECM.

Your mistake is to assume that your limited experience (presumably at the top level of play, since you say ECM is not valuable) gives you better insight than anyone else. 'Well I don't value ECM so the ACH is fine!'

And that's exactly why this conversation was about comparing the 3L to any ACH build, before you came in and tried to change the goalposts in order to compare it to the 2X/4X.

I think you're getting the sequence of events wrong.

It began with the assertion that a 3L would not win a dogfight with an ACH or a FS9. This is true, it's also ignoring the point of the Raven chassis. ECM is not yet mentioned. I then point out that dogfighting in a Raven (short range Raven) is bad inherently due to what Fenris was complaining about. You then asked if an ACH can do the scouting role better than a Raven (not a Raven 3L) to which I then replied look at the laser quirks. You then started to specify to only the 3L, which doesn't make sense for the reasons I mentioned if we're trying to discuss chassis viability. If we're trying to discuss variant viability, then it's fine.

I wasn't born into this game as a top tier player. I was pretty bad when I started, stayed average for awhile, watched a lot of Peefsmash and Mavrck, then got better. Regardless, typically the same builds and tactics that work in high level play will work just fine in lower level. The ones that don't intrinsically require teamwork such as a Daishi ambush, but any Raven play doesn't fall under that. A 2X Raven poker is just as strong as it is in top tier play. Probably stronger, since it will be difficult for people to pinpoint where you are.

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 August 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

"ECM is not really that important and all of the others have major advantages over it."

That doesn't follow - the major selling point of the Cheetah was that clans were finally getting an ECM light.

The major selling point is a chassis with good hardpoint locations, JJs, and a good engine. ECM is secondary and many people don't take it in favor of the C torso.

[Dino Might]

Terciel1976, on 14 August 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

So few really top tier players bother to post here, most of the population doesn't even know who they are. It's sad, but understandable.

They're all too busy keeping up with Reddit.

Yosh has a good point, though, in that when we balance mechs, we can't account for just one end of the spectrum. That becomes a problem, in that a mech that may be balanced relative to other mechs for players in the highest levels of competitive play, may end up being completely underpowered for those of us with less skill.

In the case of the ACH, I think it's difficult to argue that is the case here - it is unbalanced across the board. Saying it's not OP by comparing it to the Firestarter is like trying to argue that the Tooth Fairy is real because it's just as real as the Easter Bunny.

Adiuvo, on 14 August 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

The major selling point is a chassis with good hardpoint locations, JJs, and a good engine. ECM is secondary and many people don't take it in favor of the C torso.

Wholeheartedly agree. I take that C torso all day every day. ECM is completely non-essential on this mech.

Edited by Dino Might, 14 August 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[Lugh]

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

If you have equivalent speed, then when you see him come over a hill 200m away, you are dead no matter what you do. You can't outrun him. He will continue drilling 30-40 damage alphas into you as you are turned around without any return fire because you were "smart" to run away.

Even in a Locust, I have a very difficult time running away from anything going over 130kph, because the speed differential, roughly 20-30 kph for most lights, is not enough to increase the distance fast enough. They can still get off 2-3 alphas if I was running straight away. I can't do that because one would kill me, so I have to juke, which reduces my effective retreating speed, only narrowing the speed discrepancy.

Some lights are head and shoulders above the rest - those lights are the ACH and FS9. There's no way you can say a Raven is on equal footing with a Cheeto. A Raven is on similar footing to a Locust, but the LCT-1E still outperforms it many times. I'd say the Jenner is the closest competition in the light class for the aforementioned monsters.

I'll take a Cheeto vs your Raven on any map you want. See how it plays out.

And again, this illustrates one thing. Not that the Cheetah or the Firestarter is OP, but that YOU failed, as a SCOUT. And you continue to misapprehend the blame for that on the Cheetah's speed / firepower combination.

[TercieI]

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

They're all too busy keeping up with Reddit.

Yosh has a good point, though, in that when we balance mechs, we can't account for just one end of the spectrum. That becomes a problem, in that a mech that may be balanced relative to other mechs for players in the highest levels of competitive play, may end up being completely underpowered for those of us with less skill.

I disagree completely. If you don't balance for the highest level of skill, then the highest level of skill is reduced to finding the loopholes left by compensating for the poorer skills of other. Balance thus must be done for the very highest level because it is impossible to balance for all levels at once.

Edited by Terciel1976, 14 August 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"I just find it funny how many people constantly question his knowledge about light mechs"

Why? I was one of the best light mech pilots over at MWL with MW4. Do you know me? Of course not. So its not unreasonable to ask him to back his opinion with facts, instead of trading on a rep no one knows about. And I actually appreciate the more detailed explanation, as it helps me get better here quicker.

I'm actually fine with keeping the Cheetah as is. Problem is (and I think this is what has others irritated too) is that a month after its available to the rest of us for cbills, it will get the nerf bat. Meanwhile, we have to deal with what's eventually going to be declared an OP mech for the next 6 months.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 14 August 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Yosharian]

Adiuvo, on 14 August 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

It began with the assertion that a 3L would not win a dogfight with an ACH or a FS9.

And why do you think the 3L was brought up rather than the 2X or the 4X, both of which, when ECM is removed as a factor, would perform far better than the 3L in any kind of fight, dog or otherwise?

Adiuvo, on 14 August 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

A 2X Raven poker is just as strong as it is in top tier play.

My point is that ECM is far more important in lower and middle tiers and even going into the higher tiers of play.

Oh and 'balance for the 1%, **** the 99%' can go **** itself as a concept.

Edited by Yosharian, 14 August 2015 - 09:22 AM.