377 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Since edge cases are being used to jusify yor Lord of the Flies darwinian public queue they are fair game to be used in contrary fashion. Are you now claiming zuperior players do not regularly mentor and group with bad players to helpnthem learn? When i was active in my unit i not only did new player training as well as was mentored by a few members of the Seraphim Rising Storm and Trinity companies. Both competitve and hardcore. I dragged their elo down and they were able to feasr. When i got better from what they taught msle i mentored others.

This is not always the extreme S tier 1 to tier 5 groupings but relative mismatches in psr do exist. This is. Recognized fact. A while back i believe it was Bryan Ekman posted pictures of the solo versus group analysis screen and showed an average elo disparity over 200 for group queue with only 90 or less for solo queues. Find them yourself if you dont believe me. They are in these forums somewhere. Btw in that same thread it was admitted that a difference of 50 elo was considered 'significant'.

CW is illustrative of what you desire to do with the vrojp queue. It doesnt matter that you have quad3 going. The mm will be worthless because of significant variences in player skill because all tiers will have to play together there or you must lock grouping tiers. People have quit CW because of its constant waits created by bad skill mismatch. Something you cannot stop with your plan and blindly refuse to acknowledge.

[Vlad Ward]

What. I mean ... what?

First off, the Seraphim are nowhere near Tier 1. Sorry. No offense to them, but they're not. And you're probably not legit Tier 5 yourself, bro. I've seen you in games, and I'm not seeded that low.

Secondly, what nonexistent edge cases am I using? The current group queue is nothing but a collection of edge cases. That's the problem. It's what happens when you have a miniscule population isolated from literally every single other person who plays this game.

Next, "Bad Players getting mentored" are not Tier 5. You only drop to the Tier 5 underhive when you have played this game for a long time and have vehemently refused to do anything to improve your play. Tier 5 hates groups, hates units, and wants nothing to do with "that meta garbage". You need to understand that these are people who the MM thinks will get shat on by people who installed the game yesterday.

Finally, no ******* crap there are huge elo/psr imbalances in group queue. It's caused by low population straining the limits of what the matchmaker will allow to happen. The whole point of integrating solo players and increasing player pool size is to prevent edge cases like that from happening to anyone.

CW has nothing to do with anything. It has no matchmaker, no limitations, no anything. That is nowhere even close to what I'm proposing. Jesus.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 August 2015 - 08:47 PM.

[Kjudoon]

I do not know what tier i am and as for the SRS i see them beat top level teams so your opinions on who is and is not what is invalid till PGI releases hard proof. If i was honest i am definitely higher thN what i should be. You should be careful of throwing stones at people on skill when you yourself are seeing them in match.

You have based your argument on opinion just like everyone else and assume its fact. Now you are saying that the population is too low to balance so we should expand the pool by making it just like the worst situation in the game, cw in a frantic attempt to fix the population problem??????????

Do you even understand the stated reasons people quit this game? Are you bothering to listen or reasld the queues where dozens of players explain they quit because its pointless stomps of organized groups on pugs?

Talk about being the purported Einsteinian definition of insanity!

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

I do not know what tier i am and as for the SRS i see them beat top level teams so your opinions on who is and is not what is invalid till PGI releases hard proof. If i was honest i am definitely higher thN what i should be. You should be careful of throwing stones at people on skill when you yourself are seeing them in match.

You have based your argument on opinion just like everyone else and assume its fact. Now you are saying that the population is too low to balance so we should expand the pool by making it just like the worst situation in the game, cw in a frantic attempt to fix the population problem??????????

Do you even understand the stated reasons people quit this game? Are you bothering to listen or reasld the queues where dozens of players explain they quit because its pointless stomps of organized groups on pugs?

Talk about being the purported Einsteinian definition of insanity!

1) Kay. Opinions on Seraphim. Sure. I don't know when I threw rocks at your skill. You were the one who compared yourself to a Tier 5 in your crazy edge case. I simply said "No, you're not Tier 5." Look at me throwing all these stones.

2) Russ mentioned, like, yesterday that the group queue had serious problems with edge cases due to low population. If it wasn't already a commonly known bit of information, it's been confirmed from the horse's mouth.

3) What the heck does CW have to do with anything? Seriously, this is throwing me off. What I'm proposing is nothing like CW. Do you seriously not understand the difference between having both extremely low population and zero matchmaker at all and having a high population, PSR, and 3/3/3/3?

4) More players quit due to 1/2-4/12 triple queue implementation than due to premades stomping pugs. Prove me wrong. You seem to like acting as PGI's exit survey manager, after all.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 August 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Why is the population low in both cw and group queue is the same: bad player experience for the majority of players. I quit because there is no discernable differenvlce between the two experiences. Group averaging... I still cant believe you dont get this... INVALIDATES the work of any matchmaker rendering it useless! Release valves constantly turn off quad 3 agIn rendering it useless.

You think shoving everyone into the same queue is going to make things better? Maybe for a small minority who already like these crappy modes. THE REST WILL QUIT. The cycle has bee thus.

I am sick of me and my few buddies being beaten to a pulp on cw. Lets go play together in the public group queue.
Oh crap those same guys who beat us up in cw followed us because the game isnt what they want there. Lets go to the solo queue and just play together in channel but our own games.
What? There is too few people i the group queue so everyone is forced to play together and we get beat up some more by the same guys? How do yoj guys feel about star citizen? I quit.

I know of at least 2 whole casual unit who have done this and a couple dozen players.

Your one queue fix is the gun in the mouth of this game. People will not stand for it and wait for Harebrained Studios to put out their product and go there instead.

[TheMadTypist]

Game works fine in the solo queue, it's a playground for Pugs and it's supposed to be. Don't go messing that up just because the group queue is having issues. It would just be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, making one experience better at the expense of the other.

You want more players to play with groups? Give ungrouped players the option of choosing to be selected to drop in the group queue, the way players now have the option to drop on multiple region servers or in different game modes. You leave the pug queue alone, but you get a smattering of additional players, probably folks who normally drop grouped but don't have their friends online at the moment/are looking to join a clan/want the fastest possible match/whatever.

You don't get to roll the pugland population, but you get some degree of bump in player numbers.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Why is the population low in both cw and group queue is the same: bad player experience for the majority of players. I quit because there is no discernable differenvlce between the two experiences. Group averaging... I still cant believe you dont get this... INVALIDATES the work of any matchmaker rendering it useless! Release valves constantly turn off quad 3 agIn rendering it useless.

You think shoving everyone into the same queue is going to make things better? Maybe for a small minority who already like these crappy modes. THE REST WILL QUIT. The cycle has bee thus.

I am sick of me and my few buddies being beaten to a pulp on cw. Lets go play together in the public group queue.
Oh crap those same guys who beat us up in cw followed us because the game isnt what they want there. Lets go to the solo queue and just play together in channel but our own games.
What? There is too few people i the group queue so everyone is forced to play together and we get beat up some more by the same guys? How do yoj guys feel about star citizen? I quit.

I know of at least 2 whole casual unit who have done this and a couple dozen players.

Your one queue fix is the gun in the mouth of this game. People will not stand for it and wait for Harebrained Studios to put out their product and go there instead.

Group queue was DOA because 1/2-4/12 killed >50% of all the units that existed when it was implemented, and those that survived generally did so with substantially reduced player counts. The fact that it's lasted this long without completely collapsing baffles me.

I think you're really taking your edge case nonsense a little too far. What will PSR group averaging do? How many Tier 1 and Tier 5 mixed groups do you think will really exist? And if they do happen to pop up, what's so wrong with throwing a full team of Tier 3s at them? The Tier 1s are basically fighting for two players, since the Tier 5s will do more harm than good (if they live long enough to do anything against Tier 3s).

Here's the thing you don't get: Release valves don't activate at all in high population queues. They don't need to. Why? Because there's a high population.

And those players who stomped you in CW? They can't actually follow you into the Normal queue if they're stronger than you. Yes, they may have followed units into the Group Queue in the past, but that's only because the Group Queue is broken and needs to be put down.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 August 2015 - 09:43 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Opting in is an awesome thing. Think youre that good... Hey we shouldnt stop you. One third of my 3 queue solution implemented. I am for it. Leave the zolo queue alone.

[Vlad Ward]

Opting out is an ideal seed case. Let the forum kneejerkers ban themselves from playing with players who have friends if they really want to, but larger seed = better for everyone else.

[Kjudoon]

Where are you getting this over half the groups killed fantasy? Pre 5plus fix? I am not saying 1/2-4/12. So i dont know why you keep making this up.

I am not focusing on edge cases like your harping on. I gave an illustration of good players mentoring bad ones creating a very common mismatch of skill. We used to run training classes where one good player would team up with some new pilots and train with them. The trainer often could tear it up because the elo differential was significant enough to make it pretty easy for them if they took advantage of it. Other guys i have grouped with in the past where big skill differential existed often resulted in stomps... Or the weakest player getting obliterated early.

You seem to think that mm is some magic shield. It is not. Tier 3 can face every tier. At least solo queue forces psr to being evaluated individually it is irrelevant if you can face all the tiers! Though they are not following you personally, that was allegorical illustration, used to point out predators go where thrle prey is you missed that or once again do not understand interactive behavior. But now it seems you dont believe skill differential is an issue for anyone or is so incidental we should just shut up wnd L2P.

I think i am done shredding your theory like a cat on a toilet paper roll. Like CW it has lost its appeal and serves no purpose.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

I think i am done shredding your theory like a cat on a toilet paper roll. Like CW it has lost its appeal and serves no purpose.

k bye

[Kjudoon]

Ban ourselves? What a peculiar victim you pretend to be while victimising others.

I believe this is a more appropriate farewell in that case.

https://youtu.be/J-3VxOqHI-4

[Pjwned]

There are 3 major reasons why the group queue should stay separate:

1) Groups are almost always going to work together better than random players who are not grouped.

2) As an extension of #1, groups who are familiar with each other (which is most often the case, but not always) will tend to play even better since they would know how the others operate.

3) Groups can easily tailor their mech builds to synergize with the rest of the group e.g 1 mech with NARC and 1 LRM boat.

Solo players don't have any of those benefits and it's not fair to get rolled by coordinated groups while they just want to play some matches, so solo should stay solo.

Additionally, when considering the above arguments concludes that matches would inherently not be better when mixing groups with solos regardless of a larger pool of players, the only reasons for allowing groups to play against solos is that groups want to PUG stomp, which is tough ****, or that they don't want to face better groups, which means they should git gud, and neither of those reasons are valid for changing anything.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 August 2015 - 10:55 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

If 1/2 happen, then those group players will just go up in ranking until they're fighting comparatively stronger solo players who can stand up to them. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

Also, LRM+NARC 'synergies' are terrible and any ragtag group of players T3 or above should be able to handle it fine (and if you're fighting T4-5, the group isn't really all that good anyways). For pretty much any other combination of Mechs with 3/3/3/3, synergization isn't really a thing. Does Mad Cat synergize with Thunderbolt? I guess, but odds are the other team is using those same Mechs anyways (if high tier).

For the record, I'm stomping a hell of a lot more in solo queue than group right now. It's my own fault, pre-seeding data, etc. But I'm not having all that much trouble with group queue bar the wait times, really. It's people like Mechwarrior Buddah who are posting like 5 threads a day about how broken the matchmaker is because he's dropping in Group and getting rolled that would really see the most benefit from this sort of change.

Besides, anyone who actually wants to pug stomp can just roll into CW queue. That's all its good for right now anyways. There aren't even pesky things like PSR and 3/3/3/3 to keep you from rolling over weaker players.

[Pjwned]

Vlad Ward, on 22 August 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

If 1/2 happen, then those group players will just go up in ranking until they're fighting comparatively stronger solo players who can stand up to them. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

Sure, a team of 12 really good solo players with no coordination are going to beat a 12-man team because the solo players are just that good...right.

Even if that example is an edge case, it illustrates the point well, and additionally your argument doesn't actually refute the exclusive benefits of players in groups, which is fine when playing against other groups but not so much against solo players.

Quote

Also, LRM+NARC 'synergies' are terrible and any ragtag group of players T3 or above should be able to handle it fine (and if you're fighting T4-5, the group isn't really all that good anyways).

That's just 1 example, and additionally I think you underestimate how strong that combo can be.

Quote

For pretty much any other combination of Mechs with 3/3/3/3, synergization isn't really a thing. Does Mad Cat synergize with Thunderbolt? I guess, but odds are the other team is using those same Mechs anyways (if high tier).

That is hilariously wrong, and you don't have much imagination if you think synergies don't exist outside of LRM + NARC.

Quote

For the record, I'm stomping a hell of a lot more in solo queue than group right now. It's my own fault, pre-seeding data, etc. But I'm not having all that much trouble with group queue bar the wait times, really. It's people like Mechwarrior Buddah who are posting like 5 threads a day about how broken the matchmaker is because he's dropping in Group and getting rolled that would really see the most benefit from this sort of change.

Great, so because people play poorly in the group queue and they can't wait for their PSR to settle in properly, let's just turn the standard queue into a shitfest for everybody else, sounds great.

Quote

Besides, anyone who actually wants to pug stomp can just roll into CW queue. That's all its good for right now anyways. There aren't even pesky things like PSR and 3/3/3/3 to keep you from rolling over weaker players.

That's not an argument to turn the standard queue into pug stomps as well.

[Kjudoon]

Pj.... You are arguing against a treasure trove of confirmation bias in an effort to feed starving trolls.

[EgoSlayer]

Vlad Ward, on 22 August 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

<snip>
Also, LRM+NARC 'synergies' are terrible and any ragtag group of players T3 or above should be able to handle it fine (and if you're fighting T4-5, the group isn't really all that good anyways). For pretty much any other combination of Mechs with 3/3/3/3, synergization isn't really a thing. Does Mad Cat synergize with Thunderbolt? I guess, but odds are the other team is using those same Mechs anyways (if high tier).

<snip>

You are either ignoring or blatantly overlooking the synergy that a group has even in just that one aspect. No, the pugs with a Mad Dog, a Mad Cat, and a Thunderbolt don't have synergy in their 3 heavies. But the group that has 3x Mad Cats or 3X Thunderbolts, all with similar configurations have excellent synergy. Same speeds, same ranges, exact same look (and likely paint jobs similar) to complicate/confuse drop call targeting just to start with, and that's even before you talk about them playing together regularly and able to setup and move together, focus fire, etc.. Assuming the pugs have a drop caller, etc. There are far more synergies in larger groups that give them advantages that you are either unaware of, or deliberately glossing over.

[Imperius]

This game is and will die sooner than it should have due to the fact it was a team focused game that focused and listened to the TOXIC solo "my way or the highway" solo player. These types of anti-social people are never good for a games growth. The solo guys generally don't work with others. When you're trying to build a thriving community you want people who respect others and people willing to work together to some degree to accomplish goals.

Honestly the damage is already done. The choice to split the whole foundation of the game was the poison that stunted and killed the growth of the game then lead to slow hemorrhaging. The big question now is can/will PGI be able to recover with a proper steam release after fixing the new user experience? I don't know. I can only hope it happens. I'm heavy invested in the game and still have big ideas I'd like to see added to my childhood game.

Solo only players should never be welcomed or listened to in "community focused games" and no there is no such thing as a "solo community" unless you're referring to a PVE focused game. Only then do solo minded opinions and needs matter.

[Aresye]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

Opting in is an awesome thing. Think youre that good... Hey we shouldnt stop you. One third of my 3 queue solution implemented. I am for it. Leave the zolo queue alone.

The solo queue is the biggest mistake of MWO, regardless of how many players there are. The idea that we should preserve this anarchistic playground just to satisfy the players that don't want to play as a team is nothing short of asinine.

Yes, I said T E A M, because no matter which way you try and justify it, the solo queue is still team vs. team, and teamwork will win the match.

How many players are derping around solo queue because they refuse to acknowledge the team based aspect of this game? How much better would the matchmaking be if ALL of those players could fill in PSR gaps for an all-encompassing queue, and lessen the amount of times any small groups have at running into large premades.

Speaking of premades, here's my idea:

Create a slight PSR penalty for every additional member of a group. Got a bunch of Tier-3 players but want to play in a 12man? Well if the MM can't find a large group to match you against, your PSR penalty will match you against a bunch of solo and small group Tier-2s and Tier-1s.

It's simple really, because playing in a large group enhances your coordination and allows your team to play at a level higher than the average PSR of the players that comprise it, so if you must be matched against a solo team, that solo team should be comprised of players that are at the higher level of your group's COORDINATION, not the average PSR of your players.

The end result would be Tier-2s and Tier-1s dropping solo will have a higher chance of facing organized groups, but that's okay, because they're all at the level that they can handle larger groups and coordinate together to overcome them. Tier-3s would still end up a mixed bag, but facing smaller sized groups, and Tier-4s and Tier-5s would likely never see anything other than solo players and small groups of 2-3 players that are at the same Tier-4 to Tier-5 level.

The moment Solaris mode rolls out for 1v1, free for all style gameplay, the solo queue has absolutely no reason to exist anymore, and should be completely abolished.

[Imperius]

Lol I ninjaed your post!