377 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 August 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

no; (8-10 or) 12 mans dont get to farm solo pugs with their small groups. Shits bad enough in the group queue dont make it worse

That's the whole point. This happens in group queue because there aren't enough people to seed the matchmaker properly. Add more people and you'll get better games even if you play with friends.

Mawai, on 22 August 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Not entirely true.

In solos you can select folks with equivalent skill assuming the Elo/PSR system works. These players enter a match with no significant coordination or team work advantage. The side which spontaneously develops any sort of teamwork is far more likely to win the match.

This is not true for groups ..
- groups can be casual, competitive or somewhere in between
- groups sizes can vary from 2 to 12
- groups can choose complementary mechs so they can work together more effectively

Unless the matchmaker was constrained to put identical size groups with identical composition on opposing teams that would limit the imbalance to the casual/competitive issue. However, the matchmaker will likely not be constrained that way so that it can actually get groups into games quicklu enough. You will get games with 12 man groups against 12 solos or 9 man group against a 5 man with solos filling the remaining spots. The 9 man group has a significant advantage.

In general, adding groups to the solo queue will adversely affect the play experience of solo players by increasing the likelihood of unbalanced matches due to the varying levels of group size and coordination.

If you decide to only put groups against groups you end up with the current group/solo queue split.

The players which spontaneously discover teamwork perform better.

The players who spontaneously discover teamwork end up in higher tiers.

Therefore, the players which have a history of spontaneously discovering teamwork are the only ones who would end up fighting strong groups.

This is an important part of the Teamwork Equation that people keep leaving out. It's already possible to use VOIP to start coordinating in the solo queue. If that sort of thing has such a massive effect on gameplay, it's going to be reflected in pilots' PSRs regardless of what queue they're in.

I'm also starting to wonder what exactly the words "Coordinating Mechs" mean any more. I remember when they did mean something, back in 2013, but these days pretty much every top tier Mech is an all-rounder. It's not like teams can choose to either stack snipers or stack brawlers. Lasers and ACs do both equally well.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 August 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[FupDup]

Pugs fight pugs, Premades fight premades. That sounds fair enough.

The only exception is CW, but that raises the question of why you're even playing CW in the first place?

[Screech]

Farmers really need to get over it at this point.

We just aren't into you, neither is Russ.

[nehebkau]

No.

A coordinated group will always trump an equally skilled PUG -- badly. It might be time to allow groups of 2 or 3 into solo queue but no more.

[Vlad Ward]

nehebkau, on 22 August 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

No.

A coordinated group will always trump an equally skilled PUG -- badly. It might be time to allow groups of 2 or 3 into solo queue but no more.

People keep saying this, but it would only kill group queue. Groups need those 2s, 3s, and 4s to make teams. It can barely function when everyone from 2s to 12s are in the same pot as is.

At this point I'd be content to allow solo players to "opt out" of dropping with groups because they're so terrified of premades, but it really shouldn't be necessary today with matchmaker v13.6.a Ebon Jaguar

[Mahluus]

Premades vs PuGs never fun for PuGs, sorry Vlad I just dont see the merit in your suggestion at all. Solo Q should be kept solo Q.

Edit: No amount of teamspeak, VOIP or attempted co-ordination will EVER allow a PuG to compete against even a moderately well run premade, end of discussion, thats just my 10 years of PvP experience in a variety of games. I have no interest in q'ing with groups of any shape or size.

Edited by Mahluus, 22 August 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[nehebkau]

Vlad Ward, on 22 August 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

People keep saying this, but it would only kill group queue. Groups need those 2s, 3s, and 4s to make teams. It can barely function when everyone from 2s to 12s are in the same pot as is.

True, removing 2s and 3s from group queue would make matchmaking last longer, however, I was thinking more along the lines of letting friends, who are causal gamers, play in the solo queue. Lets be honest -- group queue attracts more competitive players which can put-off more casual players.

If they really wanted to help the game they would limit group queue to a maximum size of 6 and make the 6+ to 12-mans play in CW or private matches only.

[Vlad Ward]

nehebkau, on 22 August 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

True, removing 2s and 3s from group queue would make matchmaking last longer, however, I was thinking more along the lines of letting friends, who are causal gamers, play in the solo queue. Lets be honest -- group queue attracts more competitive players which can put-off more casual players.

If they really wanted to help the game they would limit group queue to a maximum size of 6 and make the 6+ to 12-mans play in CW or private matches only.

It's interesting you say this, because bolded is a relatively new phenomenon. Believe it or not, MWO used to have a thriving PUG community. By PUG I mean the literal definition, Pick Up Group. People would drop on Comstar hub or NGNG TS and just form groups with other random solo players. Friends would be made, good times would be had, and it had nothing to do with Units. This was destroyed when PGI limited the matchmaker to 1, 2-4, or 12 only. Randomly hopping on to play with other people became way too much work to be worth it because being the 5th person in a group, or having a dude leave your 12 to eat dinner all meant you couldn't play the game. People spent more time making sure they had the right number of people than they did actually shooting robots. And they quit. In droves.

Italics already cut a swath through the game population once. It was a terrible idea then, it's a terrible idea now.

[TWIAFU]

Triordinant, on 22 August 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

It's the lesser of two evils compared to forcing soloists to play with groups if they don't want to, though.

Pssst, EVERY drop is a group drop.

There are no solo drops. Every person drops into a group if they want to or not. They are forced to.

The difference is one will play as part of the team the other will not. The one that plays as part of the team is the one people want to drop and join the battle while the other nobody wants. They are always the last one to be picked.

We just have to tolerate the 1 vs 12 with 11 in the way soloist until they drop to T5 and they can play with the other soloists and we then laugh at those complaints.

Again, there are no solo drops ONLY group.

[Vlad Ward]

TWIAFU, on 22 August 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

Pssst, EVERY drop is a group drop.

There are no solo drops. Every person drops into a group if they want to or not. They are forced to.

The difference is one will play as part of the team the other will not. The one that plays as part of the team is the one people want to drop and join the battle while the other nobody wants. They are always the last one to be picked.

We just have to tolerate the 1 vs 12 with 11 in the way soloist until they drop to T5 and they can play with the other soloists and we then laugh at those complaints.

Again, there are no solo drops ONLY group.

This is very true. Some people refuse to play as part of a team, but over time they'll just be naturally selected down to Tiers 4 and 5 where they won't see any but the absolute worst premade groups.

If people do play as part of a team, then it really doesn't matter if some number of them are on TS together or not.

[Deathlike]

This thread... is just.. sad.

I don't really have a solution for the bringing in a new player into the situation, other than having ranked and unranked queues... or a separate small group queue (2-4 mans - with an opt in for the big group queue)... with a C-bill incentive to be in the ranked queue.

The biggest problem when it comes to solo is twofold (applicable to many solo players in CW)...

1) Doesn't know how to play the game well - this is fine.. learning the mechanics in a game that virtually devoid of a good tutorial will always create a knowledge gap (and possibly a skill gap)... as long as these people are willing to listen to suggestions and feedback (and time), eventually, they will get better. This was a problem in various scenarios with older MM changes.


2) Refuses to play in a team framework - In this game, you generally PUNISHED for not playing as a team. It's really as simple as that. Even the simple concept of a double team (2 mechs vs 1) is usually favorable and worth learning.. as hiding in the back does not help the team at times.

The people that refuse to work as a team really are not good players... teamwork is the cornerstone of how you succeed in this game, and it doesn't take much effort to see who they are.

These are the kinds of players many of us could do without.


It is harder to find players "dropping by themselves" (in CW or solo) that are willing to work together to win. Any time people refuse to work with each other, you might as well have reduced your team size by 1.


TL;DR

It is imperative that players work together.. whether you are dropping solo or not.

Failure to work together is the primary causes of losses... whether it is vs big groups or small groups... or even solos.

[nehebkau]

I would still submit that groups of 2 or 3 should be able to drop in either queue as they are not going to unbalance the pug queue and will allow for friends to play together in a more informal environment.

[Kjudoon]

The last time this subject reared its ugly head before cw released Russ pointed out they looked into mixing 2 man groups into the solo queue. The result was the matchmaker tended to choke and stomps got way .more common because of group elo averaging. The bigger the group the worse it got.

The solo queue must always remain no groups if only to prevent elo... And now psr averaging.

Sync dropping ended being a threat with the advent of VOIP because player skill is still measured individually and all teams may... Ic they choose... Coordinate together.

Now with competitive teams losing their casual solo victims in CW have moved into the group queue where they can prey on the less skilled or devoted caaual groups. You know, the buddies playing together for fun not practicing to get better so they can compete in private tournaments or anything. Players that psr normally would keep apart ic tbe tiers were locked and or psr was not averaged.

This is why a 3 queue solution bas been acknowledged as the prefered solution by most.

It still has the one serious flaw of being prevented due to extremely low player population. A problem that might only be solved by a massive influx of new players like a steam release. This is a hail mary pass though and if it fails... Most of these discussions will be moot as we all will be curious to see if MWLL can come back or zomeone can buy the remains soon.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

8 man vs pug ... loss

9 man vs pug ... loss

8 man vs pug ... loss

Is there a big group farming thing going on tonight?

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

It still has the one serious flaw of being prevented due to extremely low player population.

...but tens of thousands of games... right Heffay? Wait where is he?

[pbiggz]

If everyone played as a team, used the tools available to them to communicate with their team mates, and were willing to give/follow orders, then, it shouldn't matter whether you are in a group or not. Yes a premade is just that. Premade, they might have plans going into the match but even so, they don't have very many plans especially when they don't know which map they're gonna drop on until just before the match (and you cant change your mech to suit the environment). That alone pretty much nullifies the premade advantage.

You have voip. You have lfg. Those tools are available to you.

But if you insist on lone wolfing it, insist on ignoring your team mates, insist on dropping solo, you put a greater distance between yourself and the other team than any other single factor. And it doesn't matter if your enemy team is premade or not.

If you play the team based game as a team, the solo queue becomes obsolete, and it only makes sense to weave it into the group queue to make the team based experience better (and not just for units, but for ANY GROUP OF PLAYERS WHO WANTS TO COOPERATE EVEN IF ITS ONLY FOR A SINGLE MATCH). If you refuse to play the game as a team, you dig your own grave.

The insistence on vilifying the premade as some kind of boogie man only proves my point. The problem isn't the group queue, its you. The way you fix it is you change your game, not force the devs to change the rules to suit your personal play style at the expense of others.

No single thing killed the population of this game more than limiting groups to 4 or 12. Not. One. Thing. We still haven't recovered, and it was the community largely that was responsible for that atrocious change.

We have matchmaker tools now that we never did before, we should use them, not hide behind the solo queue because you remember losing that one time.

That being said, most of you will not listen to me, you probably wont even read this far into my post, you'll just hurl insults at me. Oh well, welcome to the underhive.

Edited by pbiggz, 22 August 2015 - 07:43 PM.

[Kjudoon]

You still ignore the psr level imbalance problem which is a fatal flaw to the group queue. I get three tier 1 pilots in a team teChing a set of five tier 4s thw group will average to a low tier 3 or even possibly a high tier 4. Should those 3 players be facing anyone of such low tiers? Even pgi says no.

Thanks to group average psr its a perfect storm of seal clubbing.

This is why people are fleeing CW and now the group queue. The only unsatisfactory solution you have left is to either block grouping with players too far beneath your skill or limit the size of groups to minimize this.

[Kjudoon]

Biggz you act as if this skill disparity is not an issue. Do you deny that group average psr is a problem or that skill disparity is even an issue to the majority of the community???

[Yokaiko]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

You still ignore the psr level imbalance problem which is a fatal flaw to the group queue. I get three tier 1 pilots in a team teChing a set of five tier 4s thw group will average to a low tier 3 or even possibly a high tier 4. Should those 3 players be facing anyone of such low tiers? Even pgi says no.

Thanks to group average psr its a perfect storm of seal clubbing.

Basically the same thing happens in the solo queue, you just have a boogieman.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

You still ignore the psr level imbalance problem which is a fatal flaw to the group queue. I get three tier 1 pilots in a team teChing a set of five tier 4s thw group will average to a low tier 3 or even possibly a high tier 4. Should those 3 players be facing anyone of such low tiers? Even pgi says no.

Thanks to group average psr its a perfect storm of seal clubbing.

This is why people are fleeing CW and now the group queue. The only unsatisfactory solution you have left is to either block grouping with players too far beneath your skill or limit the size of groups to minimize this.

What kind of worst possible edge case la-la land are you living in that has Tier 1 players rocking thunderwubs and timber bombs in groups with actual tier 5 players who are rated significantly lower than even brand new installed-yesterday pilots for the purpose of clubbing Tier 3s?

And more importantly, what do CW or current group queue have to do with anything? CW queue has zero matchmaker and the current Group queue already practically ignores 3/3/3/3 and PSR every game for the sake of building matches with low population.

Edit: No, most importantly, that edge case you're talking about where Tier 1s group with Tier 5s to average Tier 3 and fight against Tier 5s is only really possible in the current rendition of group queue.

The matchmaker doesn't throw people two tiers apart in the same game every time. It only does that when there's absolutely no one else to use to make the game. Adding solo players and group players to the same player pool will help ensure the matchmaker has the population necessary to maximize the number of people in the same tier in a match.

Edge cases will be a rarity, rather than an everyday occurrence as is the case now.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 August 2015 - 08:29 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Mahluus, on 22 August 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Premades vs PuGs never fun for PuGs, sorry Vlad I just dont see the merit in your suggestion at all. Solo Q should be kept solo Q.

Edit: No amount of teamspeak, VOIP or attempted co-ordination will EVER allow a PuG to compete against even a moderately well run premade, end of discussion, thats just my 10 years of PvP experience in a variety of games. I have no interest in q'ing with groups of any shape or size.

Oddly I've beaten premades of 8 or more both in the pub queue and CW, repeatedly.