377 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Shoulda focused on PvE first. Most of this community's problems wouldnt exist then.

Btw your militant collectivism isnt all roses and fairy sprinkles either. "Shut up if you arent a member of the party?" how oligarchian.

This game straddled the picket fence of the community and will die early because neither side is going to support or get what it wants. The flaw of releasing before ready. Or developing in public.

[Pjwned]

Imperius, on 22 August 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

This game is and will die sooner than it should have due to the fact it was a team focused game that focused and listened to the TOXIC solo "my way or the highway" solo player. These types of anti-social people are never good for a games growth. The solo guys generally don't work with others. When you're trying to build a thriving community you want people who respect others and people willing to work together to some degree to accomplish goals.

Honestly the damage is already done. The choice to split the whole foundation of the game was the poison that stunted and killed the growth of the game then lead to slow hemorrhaging. The big question now is can/will PGI be able to recover with a proper steam release after fixing the new user experience? I don't know. I can only hope it happens. I'm heavy invested in the game and still have big ideas I'd like to see added to my childhood game.

Solo only players should never be welcomed or listened to in "community focused games" and no there is no such thing as a "solo community" unless you're referring to a PVE focused game. Only then do solo minded opinions and needs matter.

That's an absolutely garbage mentality that will always drive the majority of players away from any game before they have a chance to get involved.

[Furious Zen Master]

You should be grateful for the existence of the solo queue. If PGI hadn't separated groups from solo players there would be maybe 500 of you still playing this game and your must-have mech packs would have to cost something like 400 dollars in order to keep the servers online. So, say a big THANK YOU to PGI for implementing the solo queue, they saved you a lot of money.
Also, ask yourselves this: If being in a group is so amazingly fun and generally better in every way, how come there's so few people actually joining those groups? You don't have to pay a fee to join one, so what is it about groups that makes most people avoid them? Is it a conspiracy? Is the Man trying to keep us from getting organized so that he can control us? Maybe it is something else that you are not willing to admit?
Face facts here, for most people this is just a simple arena game that they can fire up for 30-90 minutes when they get home and shoot some robots with frickin' laser beams. Your "units", your "ranks", your "skrims", your "training nights" mean nothing to them. Force them to play against you and they will just move on to the next game that offers that 30-90 minute window of entertainment while you end up with the 400 dollar mech packs.
If you can financially support your concept of a hardcore team-based game that requires hours and hours of dedication, then by all means go for it. Sign long term contracts with PGI and you will have your tryhard game for as long as you want. Until you can do that, the vast majority of the solos are what keeps this game going.
MWO: I know it's important to you, but it's not important to most people that play it. Deal with it.

[Kjudoon]

Wow just wow. Starving trolls having hard time finding willing victims it seems bas made them cranky. You need AIs to punch around and always come back for more.

Abolish the solo queue? Yeah your credibility got too close to the seal you were clubbing and took some friendly fire.

I will say the concept of bribing solo/small groups to be patsies on the undercard fights are intriguing... But i dont know how many would bite if given the choice.

[Kjudoon]

Just a reminder to you l33t grouptrolls out there... The solo or small group casual player does not exist to service your ego or entertainment excesses. We may not be whales but the ocean doesnt live on whales alone but the smaller creatures in it that give you a place to live and thrive.

So one lat time, quit defecating where you eat.

[The Ratfink]

Lots of complaints about how hard solo is for some people now they are matched properly. Is this just a way for them to get their easy wins again as they can't roll complete nuubs anymore.

I would like to see 2s just for the buddy factor. Anything more would be too powerful.

Edited by The Ratfink, 23 August 2015 - 12:36 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Pjwned, on 22 August 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

Sure, a team of 12 really good solo players with no coordination are going to beat a 12-man team because the solo players are just that good...right.

Even if that example is an edge case, it illustrates the point well, and additionally your argument doesn't actually refute the exclusive benefits of players in groups, which is fine when playing against other groups but not so much against solo players.

That's just 1 example, and additionally I think you underestimate how strong that combo can be.

That is hilariously wrong, and you don't have much imagination if you think synergies don't exist outside of LRM + NARC.

Great, so because people play poorly in the group queue and they can't wait for their PSR to settle in properly, let's just turn the standard queue into a shitfest for everybody else, sounds great.

That's not an argument to turn the standard queue into pug stomps as well.

Group queue has always had major issues. It's just getting more attention now because casuals are being vocal about it again, and Tier 4 Casuals are the only people who seem to matter in General Discussion.

The pool of top tier Mechs is so small that highly tuned synergies aren't a huge deal. If a team is sitting in Tier 3, they're probably not all that tuned to begin with, so going up against less optimized opponents isn't a huge deal. If a team is Tier 1, and they roll against other small groups and soloists in Tier 1, you're not going to see much of a difference. The best mechs in the game are largely self-sufficient.

Also, LRM+NARC is a noob smasher combo. It's good at what it does, but good luck using it outside of the underhive. Quirked IS Large Lasers not only have a longer range than LRMs (lol), but actually hit what you point them at and aren't totally useless in general.

Besides, this whole 12 vs solos nonsense is the most unlikely edge case possible. 12-mans are, what, 1% of the playerbase? And the odds of that 1% being matched against a team consisting entirely of solos without a single group? Miniscule.

EgoSlayer, on 22 August 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

You are either ignoring or blatantly overlooking the synergy that a group has even in just that one aspect. No, the pugs with a Mad Dog, a Mad Cat, and a Thunderbolt don't have synergy in their 3 heavies. But the group that has 3x Mad Cats or 3X Thunderbolts, all with similar configurations have excellent synergy. Same speeds, same ranges, exact same look (and likely paint jobs similar) to complicate/confuse drop call targeting just to start with, and that's even before you talk about them playing together regularly and able to setup and move together, focus fire, etc.. Assuming the pugs have a drop caller, etc. There are far more synergies in larger groups that give them advantages that you are either unaware of, or deliberately glossing over.

You severely underestimate how easy it is for any mid-tier unit player to drop with any other combination of mid-tier unit players. It's how CW Faction TS's operated for basically all of Beta 1. It's just plug and play. 4 guys from Nights Scorn, 3 from my team, and 5 from NKVA? Never played with any of the other guys before? No problem, bro. We all know how to shot lazor. Pick a target caller and hit launch.

There are a large number of ways to delineate target calls for groups that share camo (though I've literally never heard a target called by its camo in the first place unless it's just the gaudiest thing on the planet so what the heck, really?). All Clan Heavies run the exact same speed (except maybe the vulture? idk, lrm boats are terrible), and well-built Thunderbolts aren't all that different.

Are there benefits to knowing the guys you're dropping with? Totally.

Is it game-breaking? Hell no.

[Imperius]

Major Tryhard, on 23 August 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

You should be grateful for the existence of the solo queue. If PGI hadn't separated groups from solo players there would be maybe 500 of you still playing this game and your must-have mech packs would have to cost something like 400 dollars in order to keep the servers online. So, say a big THANK YOU to PGI for implementing the solo queue, they saved you a lot of money.
Also, ask yourselves this: If being in a group is so amazingly fun and generally better in every way, how come there's so few people actually joining those groups? You don't have to pay a fee to join one, so what is it about groups that makes most people avoid them? Is it a conspiracy? Is the Man trying to keep us from getting organized so that he can control us? Maybe it is something else that you are not willing to admit?
Face facts here, for most people this is just a simple arena game that they can fire up for 30-90 minutes when they get home and shoot some robots with frickin' laser beams. Your "units", your "ranks", your "skrims", your "training nights" mean nothing to them. Force them to play against you and they will just move on to the next game that offers that 30-90 minute window of entertainment while you end up with the 400 dollar mech packs.
If you can financially support your concept of a hardcore team-based game that requires hours and hours of dedication, then by all means go for it. Sign long term contracts with PGI and you will have your tryhard game for as long as you want. Until you can do that, the vast majority of the solos are what keeps this game going.
MWO: I know it's important to you, but it's not important to most people that play it. Deal with it.

I see no badges of support under your name or most of the solo only warriors.

Casual units like mine don't practice, we are just like minded and enjoy each other's company. It's called camaraderie and ultimately what keeps people sticking around in games past thier prime.

Solo's did nothing for this game but cut its lifespan. I don't have the numbers of who pays the most only PGI does.
These are the facts:

The founders of this game were long time unit GROUPS waiting for the next battletech game.
We raised over 5 million that sadly went to IGP.
Then the solos came as they normally do like a plague of locusts.
IGP saw the increase in player numbers and made bad choices to cut the very groups that founded and gave traction to the game.
The groups were told that it was " temporary" until ELO could be put in.
"Temporary" Turned out to be over a year and many groups left or fell apart because it was clear we weren't a focus.
Finally PGI broke off from IGP but the damage was done Russ reached out to bring back groups but the solos had already created a toxic wasteland with conditions in place not fit for growing community.
Now it's in your hands big boy hope you got the cash to keep your solo mech stomping dream alive.

[bad arcade kitty]

pugs usually don't have a commander... that's why they lose, it's not about their personal skill, they may play as well as those from the group, but without a drop commander they have a serious disadvantage; sometimes somebody tries to be one but when only part of people listen to them they usually fail as well

[Vlad Ward]

Major Tryhard, on 23 August 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

You should be grateful for the existence of the solo queue. If PGI hadn't separated groups from solo players there would be maybe 500 of you still playing this game and your must-have mech packs would have to cost something like 400 dollars in order to keep the servers online. So, say a big THANK YOU to PGI for implementing the solo queue, they saved you a lot of money.
Also, ask yourselves this: If being in a group is so amazingly fun and generally better in every way, how come there's so few people actually joining those groups? You don't have to pay a fee to join one, so what is it about groups that makes most people avoid them? Is it a conspiracy? Is the Man trying to keep us from getting organized so that he can control us? Maybe it is something else that you are not willing to admit?
Face facts here, for most people this is just a simple arena game that they can fire up for 30-90 minutes when they get home and shoot some robots with frickin' laser beams. Your "units", your "ranks", your "skrims", your "training nights" mean nothing to them. Force them to play against you and they will just move on to the next game that offers that 30-90 minute window of entertainment while you end up with the 400 dollar mech packs.
If you can financially support your concept of a hardcore team-based game that requires hours and hours of dedication, then by all means go for it. Sign long term contracts with PGI and you will have your tryhard game for as long as you want. Until you can do that, the vast majority of the solos are what keeps this game going.
MWO: I know it's important to you, but it's not important to most people that play it. Deal with it.

So few people play in groups because the current iteration of the group queue is unable to properly match low or mid-level players against teams that would be fun for them to fight. Low and mid-level players are the vast majority of the game, and if they end up fighting SJR every other round in group queue because they're the only other team playing, they're gonna go back to dropping solo real darn fast.

Group queue shouldn't be as dead as it is. The old 2-4/12 limitations killed it and it never recovered.

And yes, separating the queues was necessary back in 2012 when the matchmaker was in v0.83a. We now have Matchmaker v3.17c Ebon Jaguar and years of player data to work with. It's not necessary any more.

bad arcade kitty, on 23 August 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

pugs usually don't have a commander... that's why they lose, it's not about their personal skill, they may play as well as those from the group, but without a drop commander they have a serious disadvantage; sometimes somebody tries to be one but when only part of people listen to them they usually fail as well

Full on "commanders" are usually unnecessary unless you're dealing with brand new players or something. Use of VOIP for relaying important information, however, is vital. When I luck out and get a group of solid folks on my team, this happens. Targets are called, spots are highlighted, all in a group of solo players. It's a nice feeling.

Aresye Kerensky, on 22 August 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

The solo queue is the biggest mistake of MWO, regardless of how many players there are. The idea that we should preserve this anarchistic playground just to satisfy the players that don't want to play as a team is nothing short of asinine.

Yes, I said T E A M, because no matter which way you try and justify it, the solo queue is still team vs. team, and teamwork will win the match.

How many players are derping around solo queue because they refuse to acknowledge the team based aspect of this game? How much better would the matchmaking be if ALL of those players could fill in PSR gaps for an all-encompassing queue, and lessen the amount of times any small groups have at running into large premades.

Speaking of premades, here's my idea:

Create a slight PSR penalty for every additional member of a group. Got a bunch of Tier-3 players but want to play in a 12man? Well if the MM can't find a large group to match you against, your PSR penalty will match you against a bunch of solo and small group Tier-2s and Tier-1s.

It's simple really, because playing in a large group enhances your coordination and allows your team to play at a level higher than the average PSR of the players that comprise it, so if you must be matched against a solo team, that solo team should be comprised of players that are at the higher level of your group's COORDINATION, not the average PSR of your players.

The end result would be Tier-2s and Tier-1s dropping solo will have a higher chance of facing organized groups, but that's okay, because they're all at the level that they can handle larger groups and coordinate together to overcome them. Tier-3s would still end up a mixed bag, but facing smaller sized groups, and Tier-4s and Tier-5s would likely never see anything other than solo players and small groups of 2-3 players that are at the same Tier-4 to Tier-5 level.

The moment Solaris mode rolls out for 1v1, free for all style gameplay, the solo queue has absolutely no reason to exist anymore, and should be completely abolished.

This is a great post.

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 12:26 AM, said:

Just a reminder to you l33t grouptrolls out there... The solo or small group casual player does not exist to service your ego or entertainment excesses. We may not be whales but the ocean doesnt live on whales alone but the smaller creatures in it that give you a place to live and thrive.

So one lat time, quit defecating where you eat.

You're the one accusing me of having a victim complex, right? Just to be clear.

[EgoSlayer]

Vlad Ward, on 23 August 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

Group queue has always had major issues. It's just getting more attention now because casuals are being vocal about it again, and Tier 4 Casuals are the only people who seem to matter in General Discussion.

The pool of top tier Mechs is so small that highly tuned synergies aren't a huge deal. If a team is sitting in Tier 3, they're probably not all that tuned to begin with, so going up against less optimized opponents isn't a huge deal. If a team is Tier 1, and they roll against other small groups and soloists in Tier 1, you're not going to see much of a difference. The best mechs in the game are largely self-sufficient.

Also, LRM+NARC is a noob smasher combo. It's good at what it does, but good luck using it outside of the underhive. Quirked IS Large Lasers not only have a longer range than LRMs (lol), but actually hit what you point them at and aren't totally useless in general.

Besides, this whole 12 vs solos nonsense is the most unlikely edge case possible. 12-mans are, what, 1% of the playerbase? And the odds of that 1% being matched against a team consisting entirely of solos without a single group? Miniscule.



You severely underestimate how easy it is for any mid-tier unit player to drop with any other combination of mid-tier unit players. It's how CW Faction TS's operated for basically all of Beta 1. It's just plug and play. 4 guys from Nights Scorn, 3 from my team, and 5 from NKVA? Never played with any of the other guys before? No problem, bro. We all know how to shot lazor. Pick a target caller and hit launch.

There are a large number of ways to delineate target calls for groups that share camo (though I've literally never heard a target called by its camo in the first place unless it's just the gaudiest thing on the planet so what the heck, really?). All Clan Heavies run the exact same speed (except maybe the vulture? idk, lrm boats are terrible), and well-built Thunderbolts aren't all that different.

Are there benefits to knowing the guys you're dropping with? Totally.

Is it game-breaking? Hell no.

Again you are ignoring or overlooking the obvious. Your example is unified coms and a designated drop caller. Things that don't exist when you are adding solos, heck is doesn't usually happen in group que either since most of the time everyone has their own VIOP and larger groups usually win, all else being equal. And I guess you've never been in drops with so much ECM you can't call letters and have to do visual only calls, lucky you.

[Kjudoon]

Rat, that is why. Lance queue with only 2 to 4 member groups would be a buge boon. Let solo players opt in there and the lances if they thinm they are just that awesome can opt into the Company queue to fight with the 5plus units like we have now. Opt in is the key.

I do like that ide of goving a cbill xp bonus to smaller groups to encourage them to step up... But never EVER force them.

The problem of small player pop remains. Maybe this could be tied to a steam release when we will get our best chance at gaining new players en masse and fixing a lot of our population problem.

The worry remains that if you do not protect them early they will not stay long.

No new seals for trolls to club.

[Kjudoon]

The victim tag IS appropriate when you are the victim. Not when you are the aggressor limiting peoples choice for your corrupt benefit.

[Vlad Ward]

EgoSlayer, on 23 August 2015 - 12:55 AM, said:

Again you are ignoring or overlooking the obvious. Your example is unified coms and a designated drop caller. Things that don't exist when you are adding solos, heck is doesn't usually happen in group que either since most of the time everyone has their own VIOP and larger groups usually win, all else being equal. And I guess you've never been in drops with so much ECM you can't call letters and have to do visual only calls, lucky you.

I mean, having the letters is nice, but like I said - there are plenty of ways to call targets.

"Atlas on the right" is pretty casual, and works well for units that are in roughly the same location or know where the caller is aiming.

"That LRM Atlas in the back" is also casual, but identifies a target by both chassis and loadout. Less effective against identical Mechs, but the right/left/center paradigm above handles that situation well.

"Atlas bearing 342" is more formal, and highly irregular unless you're really feeling the tryhard coming on, but it's a precise way to denote a particular mech for allies that are near the target caller.

Then there's my personal favorite "Kill that ******* on the hill," which is unexpectedly effective as everyone can tell rather quickly just who that ******* on the hill is just by saying it. Seriously, that guy just screams "*******". Hurry up and shoot him already.

I mean, ****. Players aren't potatoes. We have the ability to utilize deductive processes.

Also, largest group takes lead of the drop unless otherwise specified. That's pretty common practice. If pure solos can come together and use comms properly (I promise it does happen sometimes), mixed groups and solos should not be having that much trouble with it - especially if they're up against other, larger groups.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 23 August 2015 - 01:09 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 01:04 AM, said:

The victim tag IS appropriate when you are the victim. Not when you are the aggressor limiting peoples choice for your corrupt benefit.

Corrupt my butt. Outside of rolling with other friendly units in CW, I haven't played in a group larger than 6 in literal years. This 12-man seal-clubbing narrative of yours is pure fiction.

I'm still waiting on my No-LRMs-Allowed queue. It's my choice whether I want to play with those kinds of players or not, after all.

[Imperius]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

Rat, that is why. Lance queue with only 2 to 4 member groups would be a buge boon. Let solo players opt in there and the lances if they thinm they are just that awesome can opt into the Company queue to fight with the 5plus units like we have now. Opt in is the key.

I do like that ide of goving a cbill xp bonus to smaller groups to encourage them to step up... But never EVER force them.

The problem of small player pop remains. Maybe this could be tied to a steam release when we will get our best chance at gaining new players en masse and fixing a lot of our population problem.

The worry remains that if you do not protect them early they will not stay long.

No new seals for trolls to club.

You're a part of that clubbing problem btw... In fact you're the major part of it! Most steam users will most likely come in the game solo. So please don't be rude to them, oh wait I forgot that is the nature of solo player... toxic. You don't care about anyone but yourself and there is where the flaw lies with solo players.

That's why I push for PVE so much.

Edited by Imperius, 23 August 2015 - 01:12 AM.

[Deathlike]

Vlad Ward, on 23 August 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

I mean, having the letters is nice, but like I said - there are plenty of ways to call targets.

"Atlas on the right" is pretty casual, and works well for units that are in roughly the same location or know where the caller is aiming.

"That LRM Atlas in the back" is also casual, but identifies a target by both chassis and loadout. Less effective against identical Mechs, but the right/left/center paradigm above handles that situation well.

"Atlas bearing 342" is more formal, and highly irregular unless you're really feeling the tryhard coming on, but it's a precise way to denote a particular mech for allies that are near the target caller.

Then there's my personal favorite "Kill that ******* on the hill," which is unexpectedly effective as everyone can tell rather quickly just who that ******* on the hill is just by saying it. Seriously, that guy just screams "*******". Hurry up and shoot him already.

I mean, ****. Players aren't potatoes. We have the ability to utilize deductive processes.

Also, largest group takes lead of the drop unless otherwise specified. That's pretty common practice. If pure solos can come together and use comms properly (I promise it does happen sometimes), mixed groups and solos should not be having that much trouble with it - especially if they're up against other, larger groups.

To be fair, I think that some of even the best shooters are not actually good at deciding which target they should be going after. It's easier to shoot back at the things that can shoot him, but there's a decision making process that isn't ingrained (even if it's a basic shoot from left to right when making a right turn).

[Kjudoon]

Imperius i agree. PvE will move probably a serious majority of players out of this PvP nightmare and into what should bave been made in the first place. I am quite certain that this will make everyone happier as well.

As for the label of being toxic yeah i have become pretty bitter about the game because i was sold a bag of gods that was never delivered and probably wont be. Seal clubber? Hardly. I am not the one trying to make sure i have a stack of unaware victims for me and my buds to put notches in our man cards.

But dont try to play innocent with statements that tell everyone not like you to shut up and carry a signature calling anyone who doesnt brag about their tier a loser. Way to class it up. So lets stop trying to pick railroad ties out of our eyes. Your vision is just as bad.

[bad arcade kitty]

>this PvP nightmare

[EgoSlayer]

Vlad Ward, on 23 August 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

I mean, having the letters is nice, but like I said - there are plenty of ways to call targets.

"Atlas on the right" is pretty casual, and works well for units that are in roughly the same location or know where the caller is aiming.
<snip>

All this works fine when you are working with a group that is all on the same side/orientation from that target. Something that again comes from having a unified group, and that is completely out of the window when solos are added and the commands were going out over the in game VOIP, assuming that is even happening.
Throwing a bunch of solos to complete group queues would end up a battle of who has the largest and or most groups wins more than anything else. Maybe if the game would have started with integrated VOIP and teams used it instead of their own servers it wouldn't be as much of an issue because it would be something people would be used to working with and using. But that isn't the case, communication wins and adding solos that are not part of that communication is a disservice to everyone, except the opponents.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 23 August 2015 - 01:37 AM.