212 replies to this topic

[Aethon]

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

Whaddya know, you managed to pass the gunnery test with the minimum range penalty applied. Working as intended.

The thing is, a minimum range penalty should make it harder to use up close than its competitors...at least, in my opinion. This thing is easier than autocannons (for me; your mileage may vary).

[DivineEvil]

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what doesnt make sense is selectively cherry picking things that dont make sense in an entire game that doesnt make sense. Seriously not one thing in MWO makes sense.

once you realize its just a game and doesnt have to make sense then you can throw that all that realism nonsense out the window.
whats most important for games is implementing rules which establish balance. if gauss needs a minimum range for balance then it should get a minimum range. whether it makes sense or not has no real bearing.

It was a reply to OP's arguments towards sabots. In a light of your post, they are completely irrelevant.

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Hence why the entire meta now revolves around laser/gauss and high mount weapons that help minimize facetime.

Does not relates to the Gauss in any degree.

1.) Armor and structure has been doubled = Doubles the time to cripple or destroy a mech.
2.) Weapon cooldown rate has been increased above the double rate = Effectively nullifies former change and reduces time to kill.
3.) Ammo value remains the same = Amount of effective ammo requirement is at least doubled.
4.) Heat Capacity remains the same, DHS are nerfed = Amount of time a heat-dependant mech can maintain his firepower is at least halved.
5.) Overheat penalties are completely removed = Laserboats and alpha-strike loadouts are performing without restrictions.

Result:
- Brawlers and skirmishers aiming for prolonged standoffs are crippled by additional ammo requirement, unforgiving heat-over-time tax and reduced TTK ratio. Alpha-strike mechs are at clear advantage. Lasers reign supreme due to lack of any limitations except for Heat Capacity, while being most compact, lightest and easiest to use weapons in the game without an ammo dependancy.

It has nothing to do with Gauss in particular.

Edited by DivineEvil, 29 September 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

FupDup, on 26 September 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

The charge-up somewhat imitates that feature.

Agreed. I would support either/or, not both.

I do think Gauss should be limited to only fire one at a time (and since it's a power draw thing I am thinking of, the cool-down would apply to all the GRs whether they fired or not). But this is just me and people will hate this idea.

[Dimento Graven]

Aethon, on 29 September 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

It is not the only thing I would suggest, of course. But, your own non-logic fails to realize that this is a thread about the Gauss Rifle, not other ballistics. The thread is not called "How Ballistic Weaponry should be Balanced."

Think before you rage next time.

And yet you MUST have missed what inspired my rage:

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... I am all for nerfing it in some other way to make the other ballistics more useful....

She's the one bringing up other ballistics with some bizarre fantasy that handicrapping one weapon system somehow IMPROVES another.

[EAP10]

What about this: whithin 60 meters or so, instead of doing damage to the armour, make it do damage to internals, say maybe one half of the gauss' base damage. That would make sense for it being a railgun.

[Bilbo]

EAP10, on 29 September 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

What about this: whithin 60 meters or so, instead of doing damage to the armour, make it do damage to internals, say maybe one half of the gauss' base damage. That would make sense for it being a railgun.

Even at half damage, it would be doing 7.5 damage with no heat to the part of the mech that actually matters. If you have ever blown yourself up through overheating, you know that armor doesn't have to be gone to go supernova.

[Andi Nagasia]

with the Case the Gauss Round would lose its penitration and disintigrate on contact,
do damage yes but not as much as it would and also it may spread,

second thought i have and idea im adding to the Topic,

[Khobai]

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And gauss IS balanced. It's the only weapon with a reload AND charge up cycle

nope its not. the overuse of gauss in the current meta clearly reflects that gauss is in fact not balanced.

and chargeup did jack !@#$ to balance gauss. it still does massive damage at long range for practically no heat.

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Um, ALL weapons have DPS, and gauss 'TEEHEEHEE' has amongst the lowest DPS/T of all the weapons in the game.

obviously all weapons have dps.

but there is a distinct difference between a weapon that is meant to do sustained dps and a weapon that does frontloaded damage. that is the difference we were talking about.

gauss having low dps is irrelevant for reasons already elucidated on; sustained dps weapons require facetime and the current meta is about minimizing facetime while maximizing damage... which suits gauss perfectly.

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Untrue. The gauss requires some face time. Good timing and skill can minimize it but not eliminate it, and let's face it, a clan or IS 'mech vomiting 8 ERLL's is doing comparable damage even when the gauss shooter isn't staying visible the full burn time.

Never said gauss didnt require facetime. I said the current meta is about minimizing facetime. And that gauss is a weapon which is perfectly suited to minimizing facetime.

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If the gauss player is SMARTER than the short range player, this is true. If the short range player is stupid enough to NOT stick to cover and stay out of the frontal view of the gauss player, yep, pretty much he's dead and deservedly so. OF COURSE, the same moronic short range player would be just as dead to EVERY OTHER long range weapon too, but of course, you don't consider that.

Blah blah blah

A player with long range weapons has a massive advantage over a player with short range weapons. The proof is in the current meta which is completely dominated by long range weapons.

If anything you said was even remotely true that short range builds would be more common. Which theyre not.

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Again, ********, you really don't know **** about what you're talking about. The "meta" is about maximizing alpha's vs. heat.

No the current meta is about maximizing the damage you deal while minimizing the damage you take in return. Thats actually the driving force behind EVERY meta because its how you win the game. Any weapon that allows you to accomplish that the best will become the new meta.

Since you duck into cover between volleys to minimize exposure you have as much time as you need to cool off. So heat efficiency really isnt the driving force behind the current meta. But if you can have a weapon that meets all the criteria of the meta as well as has low heat, that weapon is going to become dominant.

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. "Face time" is minimal factor

I dont even have to rebuke that argument. It points out your lack of understanding of the game on its own.

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BEFORE they EVER consider implementing 'minimum' range on ANY weapon, they need to introduce collisions so that the 'meta' of creating hyper fast lights with huge short range alphas that do nothing but run into heavier 'mechs at maximum speed, and firing weapons is eliminated.

I do actually agree with you that collisions should be readded to the game.

However I dont share your need to overly punish lights since I dont really view lights as being a problem. Theyre one of the weaker weight classes at the moment.

Collisions should be readded because they made the game more fun, but they need to be handled very carefully so they dont completely gimp light mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 29 September 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

nope its not. the meta clearly reflects that gauss is in fact not balanced.

and chargeup did jack !@#$ to balance gauss. it still does massive damage at long range for practically no heat.

Yeah, it has the reload cycle of a LRM 20, can still be easily destroyed, is limited via ammo, and requires actual skill to use, AND WHEN IT IS USED WITH SKILL, it incites mega whining from the jealous unskilled underhive who don't understand it's a bad idea to stand still, or walk in a straight line out in the open, even when the enemy is 'really far away'...

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obviously all weapons have dps.

but there is a distinct difference between a weapon that is meant to do sustained dps and a weapon that does frontloaded damage. that is the difference we were talking about.

gauss having low dps is irrelevant for reasons already elucidated on; sustained dps weapons require facetime and the current meta is about minimizing facetime while maximizing damage... which suits gauss perfectly.

Yeah yeah, it has been said over and over, and I'll translate what is actually being said:

Certain people want to force the enemy into standing still while they blast the enemy with their lasers.

WE GET IT.

They think they should have carte blanche to vomit their lasers in their little hyper fast light boats, pinballing off everyone else with extremely little risk of significant damage, and absolutely NO CHANCE of being knocked down...

Sure, sure, they HATE gauss because they want to take as direct a line as possible towards their enemy, regardless of the fact that it's very open terrain. They want to be allowed to shoot first, with an enemy that can't fire back, except once every FOUR OR FIVE of their alphas.

Why should a weapon system that has so many other huge drawbacks, yet supports a totally different play style than other weapons systems be penalized for being utilized exactly how it was designed?

Instead of trying to nerf it, why doesn't everyone just learn to play better?

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Blah blah blah

A player with long range weapons has a massive advantage over a player with short range weapons. The proof is in the current meta which is completely dominated by long range weapons.

If anything you said was even remotely true that short range builds would be more common. Which theyre not.

I take it you have absolutely no idea about light 'mechs and their meta? High speed with high alpha short range energy boating? I mean, heck, if we were seeing high speed light gauss builds too, showing how "flexible" a weapon system it is and just how "oh so meta" it is as you claim you'd have something, BUT, the limitations of the gauss really prevent practical implementation on lights and mediums.

And according to what you just stated, you apparently think ALL weapons should be the same range?

The advantage "LONG" range weapons have over "SHORT" range weapons is in how they're designed. LONG range weapons can reach farther... DUH! BUT, they have longer burn times, higher heat, weigh more, or in the case of gauss, have long recharge time, a charge cycle, can only be fired two at a time, have a 90% chance of exploding if hit in a crit slot, require HUGE amounts of space and are VERY heavy.

The fact that I'm STILL seeing lots of Firestarters packed with SL's and SPL's, and Arctic Chetah's, and Shadowcats and Nova's packed essentially the same way (though they tend to go ML's which have an even farther reach Clan-wise than any IS ML build) and that those builds are actually MUCH more common than dual gauss builds.

But we'll ignore that fact and say that short range/medium range weapons aren't being used AT ALL... Sure, why not?

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No the current meta is about maximizing the damage you deal while minimizing the damage you take in return. Thats actually the driving force behind EVERY meta because its how you win the game. Any weapon that allows you to accomplish that the best will become the new meta.

Since you duck into cover between volleys to minimize exposure you have as much time as you need to cool off. So heat efficiency really isnt the driving force behind the current meta. But if you can have a weapon that meets all the criteria of the meta as well as has low heat, that weapon is going to become dominant.

We'll agree to disagree then, otherwise, if what YOU think was true, we'd see nothing but LRM boats.

LRM BOATS OFFER MAXIMIZED LACK OF FACE TIME WITH A TRULY HUGE DAMAGE POTENTIAL.

Or course we don't see that. LRM boats aren't all that common, unless a challenge is going on, we may see 2 or 3 per drop in the public queue, max. Of course we'll see a crap ton of lights, mediums, and heavies boating all sorts of short, medium, and long range energy and ballistics vomit, but again, IT'S THE GAUSS AND IT'S IMAGINED META, that we're discussing here.

So someone can charge, have a half second of aim time to fire, and then backup. Great. With heavies and assaults that's only 'so' effective. They don't accelerate like lights and medium, face time is required.

The thing that gets me, you're so upset that the gauss offers minimal face time, what I don't get is why you aren't closing the distance, moving, finding cover while the gauss user can't see you. If there's no face time, he can't see you, you can move to cover, and close in forcing him out.

No, instead you're apparently mad that you can't FORCE HIM TO STAND STILL so that you can STAND STILL and fire all you want at him.

This is effectively what the whiners have been complaining about.

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I dont even have to rebuke that argument. It points out your lack of understanding of the game on its own.

I've got an Elite Founder tag next to my name just like yours indicating I've been around here a while, and, I've got a tier number next to mine that is some round about indicator that I might actually have some in game experience.

So rebuke away, you're still wrong.

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I do actually agree with you that collisions should be readded to the game.

Magical.

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However I dont share your need to overly punish lights since I dont really view lights as being a problem. Theyre one of the weaker weight classes at the moment.

Uh huh... Spoken like a true light pilot.

That's why we continue to see so many Firestarters, Spiders, Locusts, Ravens, Panthers, Arctic Cheetah's, etc. etc. etc. And continue to see examples of them doing remendous amounts of damage.

Because they're so weak.

I'll just leave this here:

Spoiler

I'm not even sure we're playing the same game any more.

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Collisions should be readded because they made the game more fun, but they need to be handled very carefully so they dont completely gimp light mechs.

They need to be added so that ALL pilots (even fast mediums and heavies) have motivation to desist from 'pinballing' through a clump of enemies with little to no risk to themselves.

That sort of BS tactic is exploiting a game engine weakness and SHOULD BE 'overly punished'.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 29 September 2015 - 04:55 PM.

[Libas]

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Blah blah blah

A player with long range weapons has a massive advantage over a player with short range weapons. The proof is in the current meta which is completely dominated by long range weapons.

If anything you said was even remotely true that short range builds would be more common. Which theyre not.



No the current meta is about maximizing the damage you deal while minimizing the damage you take in return.

It is always like this
http://www.thedailyc...nes-gun-gif.gif

the guy in black uses srms in a slow mech and indiana used his gauss lol

Edited by Libas, 29 September 2015 - 07:01 PM.

[wanderer]

Dimento Graven, on 28 September 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

Except I won't be standing still, I'll be right up your ******** with my MG's on my light 'mech completely out maneuvering you, while you uselessly twist and turn praying to RNGesus that you can accidentally get ONE gauss to connect to me. Keep praying because while you're doing that I'll be peeling your ass like an onion...

Um...do you really have problems getting hits on a light 'Mech at MG range while it's facing you with a Gauss?

Perhaps you haven't mastered the fine art of putting your back to a piece of terrain when dealing with lights?

Because seriously. Center of mass. CHUNK. Repeat. If your opponent is sitting there with his backside more wide open than plumber crack, it wouldn't matter what gun they had.

None of them can hit you. You could flamer em to death, assuming it didn't boil you first.

[Andi Nagasia]

Dimento Graven, on 29 September 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

That's why we continue to see so many Firestarters, Spiders, Locusts, Ravens, Panthers, Arctic Cheetah's, etc. etc. etc. And continue to see examples of them doing remendous amounts of damage.

Because they're so weak.

I'll just leave this here:

Spoiler

I'm not even sure we're playing the same game any more.

They need to be added so that ALL pilots (even fast mediums and heavies) have motivation to desist from 'pinballing' through a clump of enemies with little to no risk to themselves.

That sort of BS tactic is exploiting a game engine weakness and SHOULD BE 'overly punished'.

ok most Light Pilots can pull off +1k every match, if they say they can they are lieing,
second the Lag shield in this case wasnt Exploited by the Player, ping on that FS9 was over 450,
finally you werent in that match, so for all you or i know that player was playing well not Exploiting,

also high ping isnt an Exploit(Charging a Team and coming out with no damage),
thats a HSR problem not a light problem, we cant really say that its Lights that are the Problem,
i came up with this idea as an idea not to say Lights need more Gauss protection,

[Dimento Graven]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 September 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

ok most Light Pilots can pull off +1k every match, if they say they can they are lieing,

Yeah I didn't say most pilots could do that, it was an example that it's not uncommon for it to be done in a light.

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second the Lag shield in this case wasnt Exploited by the Player, ping on that FS9 was over 450,
finally you werent in that match, so for all you or i know that player was playing well not Exploiting,

Not sure where you're getting the 'exploit' from. The point of the screenshot was to show someone using a light, sporting nothing but short range weaponry doing really well in it. The 'exploit' I was speaking of was exploiting the incredibly ****** custom Crysis3 engine that can't properly handle player collisions and thus eliminating the risk of running into each other. Hence, a very common practice among light pilots is to run around, smack into just about every goddamn thing they can see all the while firing their entire compliment of lasers willy nilly.

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also high ping isnt an Exploit(Charging a Team and coming out with no damage),
thats a HSR problem not a light problem, we cant really say that its Lights that are the Problem,
i came up with this idea as an idea not to say Lights need more Gauss protection,

The lack of collisions is a problem.

Gauss operating the way it's designed is NOT a problem.

Way to get sidetracked.

[Dimento Graven]

wanderer, on 29 September 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

Um...do you really have problems getting hits on a light 'Mech at MG range while it's facing you with a Gauss?

Perhaps you haven't mastered the fine art of putting your back to a piece of terrain when dealing with lights?

Because seriously. Center of mass. CHUNK. Repeat. If your opponent is sitting there with his backside more wide open than plumber crack, it wouldn't matter what gun they had.

None of them can hit you. You could flamer em to death, assuming it didn't boil you first.

You have no idea who I am do you?

I'm probably the cause of all the light pilot whining about gauss.

MOST OTHER PLAYERS HOWEVER, aren't as skilled with gauss, and it's actually quite uncommon for a person using gauss to be able to coordinate reload, recharge, and aiming at a fast moving light.

I accept that the MAJORITY of players won't do as well with gauss as I do, and appreciate that they probably don't need it to be made ANY harder to use than it already is.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, let's not make it THAT MUCH MORE FRIENDLY for the hyperfast, light laser, boat builds...

[Andi Nagasia]

Dimento Graven, on 29 September 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

The lack of collisions is a problem.

Gauss operating the way it's designed is NOT a problem.

Way to get sidetracked.

id agree some Collisions work needs to be done,

never said it was a problem, only that would a Minimum range allow for better weapon diversity,

im not side tracked, this Topic was mainly about theorycrafting, some have taken it too seriously,

[Dimento Graven]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 September 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

id agree some Collisions work needs to be done,

never said it was a problem, only that would a Minimum range allow for better weapon diversity,

im not side tracked, this Topic was mainly about theorycrafting, some have taken it too seriously,

The charge cycle is part of the simulation of 'minimum' range. The weapon can no longer be as easily 'twitched' as it could before the charge cycle.

[Whatzituyah]

This is probably the reason why PGI is not buffing or nerfing the Guass. No matter what they do someone would disagree. As for the whole topic I think we got on the wrong foot with the OP he misread the TT Rules so what? No need to get into a big argument/debate over needing the guass being nerfed or buffed right? If anything we should suggest some things here to help PGI pick out something to help buff/nerf rather then dissagreeing with one another hmmm?

[Homeskilit]

There is nothing wrong with having a discussion, that is what forums are for.

[IraqiWalker]

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

except weve already established chargeup doesnt hurt the gauss at short range. it mostly hurts the gauss snapshotting at long range.

No, we've established that charge let's the other sniping weapons stand a chance against Gauss. Snap shotting at long range is a PROBLEM, it's good that that's gone.

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

chargeup up in fact doesnt represent minimum range at all. And actually does the opposite of hurting gauss as a sniping weapon.

No, it really doesn't hurt Gauss at sniping. Our fundamental disagreement stems from the fact that you think Gauss snap firing is a good thing. It isn't. Especially since it makes Gauss the strongest ballistic weapon at ALL ranges. We KNOW that fact, because that's what we had before charge. Gauss dominated all ranges, because it snap shot it's damage. Drop the damage to 10, and splash 5 (no player will like that, btw), and it will still out do all of them, but the AC 20, and even then, just barely.

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

again its contradictory. just like low projectile velocity is contradictory for the erppc.
As long as gauss does high pinpoint damage at long range for minimal heat its always going to be overpowered. That is simply an irrefutable fact.

That's where you're wrong. The problem is coupled with snap firing. THAT is a really problem. You don't take away a javlineer from me, and give me a howtizer. nerfing me in a tiny way(splash damage), to give me a MASSIVE buff is the wrong move.

EAP10, on 29 September 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

What about this: whithin 60 meters or so, instead of doing damage to the armour, make it do damage to internals, say maybe one half of the gauss' base damage. That would make sense for it being a railgun.

Wait, are you trying to buff the weapon even more? You do understand that you have half the point at internal, than you do at armor, right?

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

nope its not. the overuse of gauss in the current meta clearly reflects that gauss is in fact not balanced.

Yes, because the existence of gauss in the meta has NOTHING to do with the fact that hit reg is crap, so people use lots of lasers, to improve their odds of registering lots of damage, and because they're using lasers, they have high heat problems, and somewhat long cooldowns, so they need a weapon to help them dish out damage at high heat levels, in between cooldowns, and cooling off.

The Gauss Rifle fits into that meta like white on snow. The Gauss Rifle is actually the meta weapon right now more because of it's 1 heat, than any other factor. It dishes out good damage, for 1 heat. Which helps all the high heat mechs work better.

This meta is centered around damage per heat, more than damage per ton, or damage per slot, or literally any other category, and it's mainly because of terrible hit reg issues. With a Gauss rifle, even if your shot is swallowed into the ether, it at least cost you no heat. Gauss can deal 7 damage right now, for it's tonnage, and slot cost, and all other issues, and it would still be in the meta, because it fits perfectly.

[Lefty McBoom]

I really like the Gauss Rifle. I'm not a huge brawler, I'm only teir 4, and there already seems to be something broken with the dual gauss builds I used to play. Hate me if you want, it's ok. Just please stop mucking up my favorite weapon.