212 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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E.g. 8 dmg to the front armor layer of the component being hit, 4 dmg to the IS of that component (with crit chance) and 3 adm to the back layer. If side projection is hit, then apply last 3 dmg to ST armor (if arm was hit) or CT IS (if ST was hit first). And live with it. Better and more interesting than 'splash'.

so your solution to gauss doing too much frontloaded damage is to buff gauss even more by giving it the ability to bypass armor and do through armor crits? lmao. that idea is terrible.

basically youd be turning the gauss rifle into a weapon where upto half its damage can ignore armor and be applied directly to internal structure.

yeah no. not only does that not solve the biggest problem with gauss but it elevates it to a completely new level of overpoweredness.

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Considering that there are many other boat builds out there that stack higher DPS

DPS on Gauss is irrelevant. You need to get over the idea of gauss as a dps weapon. Gauss isnt used as a brawling weapon. Its primarily a poking weapon for doing high amounts of surgically precise damage. You poke out, fire, retreat back into cover, and repeat until the target is dead. The purpose being to minimize your facetime with the enemy, which makes weapons with higher DPS useless vs gauss, because the gauss user has retreated back into cover before you can leverage your DPS advantage.


Again the biggest problem with Gauss is the fact it does so much frontloaded damage to one hit location.

In battletech, the high damage was countered by having random hit locations, but in MWO being able to put that 15 damage wherever you want completely breaks the armor system. Especially when its combined with a second gauss or a bunch of lasers.

MWO needs some way of making high damage weapons spread their damage across multiple hit locations. And again its where mechanics like splash damage, burst fire, and beam duration come into play... because theyre non-random ways of breaking up large blocks of damage into smaller blocks of damage that spread out across the hit locations of a mech.

Gauss doing splash damage accomplishes that by spreading the damage out across different locations. If youre against splash damage, then feel free to suggest a better solution that would actually work. So far no one has.

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• 
  
  • "Laser beams begin to cause plasma breakdown in the atmosphere at energy densities of around one megajoule per cubic centimetre. This effect, called "blooming," causes the laser to defocus and disperse energy into the surrounding air. Blooming can be more severe if there is fog, smoke, or dust in the air."
    
  • "Blooming is also a problem in particle-beam weapons. Energy that would otherwise be focused on the target spreads out; the beam becomes less effective:
    
    • Thermal blooming occurs in both charged and neutral particle beams, and occurs when particles bump into one another under the effects of thermal vibration, or bump into air molecules.
      
    • Electrical blooming occurs only in charged particle beams, as ions of like charge repel one another."

Youre really grabbing at straws. Blooming doesnt really apply at all to lasers in MWO, the range is too short. We have military grade lasers in use today that are mostly unaffected by blooming and have much higher range than the lasers found in MWO. Plus its reasonable to assume that 1000 years in the future laser technology is even better than it is today. Suffice to say blooming is an extremely poor reason to explain why a CERPPC has splash damage.

Presumably the reason why laser ranges are so short in battletech compared to real life is that stealth/electroniccountermeasure/armor technology has surpassed weapon technology to the point where weapons have to be used in close proximity to the target in order to get a lock-on or retain enough energy to destroy the target's armor.

Again a kinetic penetrator round (i.e. gauss) deforming and breaking apart and ricocheting around inside a target is a far stronger case for splash damage than "blooming".

Edited by Khobai, 28 September 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Raggedyman, on 28 September 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

Hurm... I could see that doing less damage but no damage from being hit by a supersonic Protective Casing??

Except the bullet is still inside the casing and will still punch through it, and into the target, if anything, the damage reduction wouldn't be anything more than 1 or 2 points.

clownwarlord, on 28 September 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

No, instead the charge up for gauss should be removed.

No. Charge really should stay.

VinJade, on 28 September 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

IW
No it isn't in lore or TT games.
I checked the rules and no where does it say it is charged by the pilot. it is charged automatically unless actually stated other wise by the powers that be until then it is automatic.

anyone who has been with battletech long before the GR and when the GR was added knows this.

so please stop trying to mislead people by trying to say it is lore or TT.

Wait, where did I say manual charge is in the lore, and TT? I just said that the charge is, and we just made it manual instead of automatic. You might want to bother with actually reading what people type, before you accuse them of things they are innocent of.

and you still haven't offered a better solution than Gauss Charge. Actually, it doesn't even say if the charge is automatic, just that the weapon's capacitors "remain charged". It could very well be manual, but the charge is stored indefinitely (per Tech Manual pages 218-219. Section: Gauss Rifles), since "Remain Charged" only indicates that they hold the charge indefinitely, not how they get the charge.

Novels as a source of technical info tend to be wishy washy, because the authors don't have an internal consistency with one another (example: Stackpole)

[IraqiWalker]

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

In battletech, the high damage was countered by having random hit locations, but in MWO being able to put that 15 damage wherever you want completely breaks the armor system. Especially when its combined with a second gauss or a bunch of lasers.

No, not really. Dual Gauss jagers with targeting computers, or a devastator with 2 Gauss slaved to a TC + 2 ERLLs/LPLs (Don't remember if the LPLs were slaved too), would deliver a ludicrous amount of damage, to any section you want, or give you a -1 to aiming checks making it easier, and almost guaranteed that all your shots will hit the mech.

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Again a kinetic penetrator round (i.e. gauss) deforming and breaking apart and ricocheting around inside a target is a far stronger case for splash damage than "blooming".

That would cause through armor criticals, wouldn't it?

[Moldur]

The only extra lock on the Gauss I can think of to prohibit its range is to make sensitivity go down once you start the charge up, disabling the ability to easily track targets that are moving fast at close range. That's the best I've got. Disabling damage altogether would be nonsensical.

[Chuck Jager]

make heat dissipation zero while charging sense you are taking heat to do that

[Livewyr]

Fub got it already.


But, like all ranged weapons, Gauss Cooldown needs an increase.

[totgeboren]

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

TL;DR: propose a better solution that simulates minimum range, better than charge, and doesn't make the weapon into the insta gib twitch shot nightmare it used to be.

I'm not entirely sold on the charge-up, but perhaps we still need it. I dunno, when I know someone is about to pop-tart, I just manually charge the gun up and wait. Ok, sometimes the enemy manages to pop exactly when you are in between firing windows, but often you can twitch-shoot them in the face just fine anyway. But the charge-up does nerf it a bit as a sniper weapon, can't argue with that.

What I would like is a massive increase in cooldown for the Gauss. Charging up the capacitors should take time, and this would also nerf it massively in brawls (which as I said I don't think the charge-up does).

It would only be good for sniping with like 2x the cooldown. Other ballistics would be much more all-round, and definitely outdamage it in brawls by a noticeable degree.

[Dimento Graven]

totgeboren, on 28 September 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

I'm not entirely sold on the charge-up, but perhaps we still need it. I dunno, when I know someone is about to pop-tart, I just manually charge the gun up and wait. Ok, sometimes the enemy manages to pop exactly when you are in between firing windows, but often you can twitch-shoot them in the face just fine anyway. But the charge-up does nerf it a bit as a sniper weapon, can't argue with that.

What I would like is a massive increase in cooldown for the Gauss. Charging up the capacitors should take time, and this would also nerf it massively in brawls (which as I said I don't think the charge-up does).

It would only be good for sniping with like 2x the cooldown. Other ballistics would be much more all-round, and definitely outdamage it in brawls by a noticeable degree.

I'm sorry but it's already go the lowest DPS/T rating of any weapon in the game. In fact, not counting MG's, all other ballistics, when used by players in the game will out DPS gauss right now. Sure, AC/2's and UAC/5's have, per weapon, a lower DPS, BUT, it's EXTREMELY uncommon to load only a single AC/2, or a single UAC5, and given the fact that ALL OTHER ballistics can fire more than TWO weapons at a time, the DPS handicap that gauss currently has is EXTREME.

Seriously, if you don't want there to be gauss in the game, then just simply be honest about it and ask for PGI to remove it. Don't sit there and come at it sideways by nerfing it into a handicrapped mess.

After they nerf that to uselessness, you'll have to move on to the rest of ballistics and all other pin point long range damage weapons, because you'll find you'll STILL end up very dead doing the same stupid things you were doing while gauss was usable.

[Sader325]

nope

[Khobai]

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

That would cause through armor criticals, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily.

For example, if you shoot a destroyed side torso with its internals exposed, it transfers damage to the armor of the center torso, not the internals of the center torso. Likewise if a mech loses an arm, and you shoot the spot where the arm used to be connected to, it does damage to side torso armor not side torso internals.

The same logic would apply to gauss with splash damage. If you shoot an armored section with gauss, the splash damage would transfer to the armor of the adjacent locations rather than the internals. And even if you shot into an internal section with gauss, the splash damage would still be applied to the armor of the adjacent sections. Because every location is self-enclosed in armor.

There would be no through armor crits because each location in a mech is compartmentalized and fully encased in armor; even the point where it attaches to another location is armored.

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TL;DR: propose a better solution that simulates minimum range, better than charge, and doesn't make the weapon into the insta gib twitch shot nightmare it used to be.

Except gauss is a sniper weapon. it should be twitch shot. chargeup contradicts gauss' entire role of being a sniping weapon. A sniping weapon that cant twitch shot isnt a true sniping weapon.

And again the whole reason it was a nightmare before was the 15 FLPP damage. If you lowered the pinpoint damage by adding a splash component the weapon would no longer be a nightmare. Dual gauss couldnt even headshot at long range anymore.

And if you really insist on gauss having a minimum range, a better way to do it would be to give it a linear damage dropoff under 60m, like clan LRMs. That would actually make gauss useless at close range, unlike chargeup, which completely fails in that regard. Hitting things at close range with gauss is absolutely no problem for me, you just have to train yourself for the delay.

All adding chargeup really did was hurt gauss' ability to snapshot at long range, which again, is contrary to gauss' entire role as a sniper weapon.

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No, not really. Dual Gauss jagers with targeting computers, or a devastator with 2 Gauss slaved to a TC + 2 ERLLs/LPLs (Don't remember if the LPLs were slaved too), would deliver a ludicrous amount of damage, to any section you want, or give you a -1 to aiming checks making it easier, and almost guaranteed that all your shots will hit the mech.

Where are you getting this nonsense from? Did you even read the rulebook or just make up your own rules?

First off you dont get the -1 from the targeting computer when making aimed shots.

Secondly when making aimed shots with a targeting computer you have to apply a pretty severe penalty (+3) to your to-hit roll. Also you cant even make aimed shots with pulse lasers, the rules specifically forbid it.

Lastly, if you actually hit, you have to roll 2d6 and only on a 6,7,8 does your attack it hit the location you aimed at. On anything else you roll randomly for hit location

So yeah you people are completely wrong as usual.

Spoiler

Edited by Khobai, 28 September 2015 - 02:34 PM.

[Homeskilit]

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Except gauss is a sniper weapon. it should be twitch shot. chargeup contradicts gauss' entire role of being a sniping weapon. A sniping weapon that cant twitch shot isnt a true sniping weapon.

Not to nitpick but this is a contradictory statement. No sniper twitch shoots anything. If nothing else the charge up makes it more of a sniper weapon.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[topgun505]

Compromise.

Decrease damage at under 90m sliding down from full damage down to about half damage (not 0) at point blank range. Even if the shell has a sabot on it which has not separated yet it STILL is a pretty massive slug moving at great speed ... so sabot or not it will still do some significant damage.

In exchange allow the charge time to be kept longer. AND, the GR should not blow up if it is not currently charged. Or ... at the very least, the damage should be minimal if not charged at the time of the explosion.

[Dirk Le Daring]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 September 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

why not add in the 60m-90m Minimum range that Gauss had in TT?



Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?

Because in TT it was a to-hit modifier, not a zero damage mechanic.

Keep them as they are.

[Khobai]

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Because in TT it was a to-hit modifier, not a zero damage mechanic.

thats why linear dropoff rather than 100% dropoff makes more sense IMO.

So gauss at 60m does 15 damage
at 30m does 7.5 damage
at 15m does 3.75 damage

That punishes you heavily for using gauss inside its min range without making gauss completely useless inside its min range.

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Not to nitpick but this is a contradictory statement. No sniper twitch shoots anything. If nothing else the charge up makes it more of a sniper weapon.

Yeah because recon sniper teams have to sit there waiting for their rifles to charge up before eliminating targets. lmao.

snipers absolutely DO twitch shot. because if they dont eliminate enemies quickly then the soldiers theyre covering can die. snipers are trained to quickly identify threats, eliminate them, and move onto the next threat.

again, chargeup is a really dumb mechanic that completely contradicts the role of the gauss rifle.

gauss should have linear damage dropoff under 60m, should NOT have chargeup, and should have some kindve damage spreading mechanic implemented so it doesnt apply its full 15 damage to the location it hits. Then it would be a pretty balanced weapon with a clearly defined role.

Edited by Khobai, 28 September 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

so your solution to gauss doing too much frontloaded damage is to buff gauss even more by giving it the ability to bypass armor and do through armor crits? lmao. that idea is terrible.

basically youd be turning the gauss rifle into a weapon where upto half its damage can ignore armor and be applied directly to internal structure.

yeah no. not only does that not solve the biggest problem with gauss but it elevates it to a completely new level of overpoweredness.

Hasn't the thought that damage numbers are arbitrary and might be changed never crossed your mind? Plus count critchances, count number on shots needed to ensure result, look at the Gauss mass and size and try to say that Gauss is currently the ovepowered weapon, even compared to some of the lasers. So no, unless tried in PTS the end result is hard to determine in 'I think so' terms.

[Khobai]

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Hasn't the thought that damage numbers are arbitrary and might be changed never crossed your mind?

theyre not arbitrary though. they come straight out of battletech for the most part.

because MWO has to use battletechs tonnage and crit system, its hard for them to change properties of weapons like damage, without fundamentally altering the balance of the weapon in relation to its tonnage/crit cost.

A good example of this is the CUAC/20. In tabletop the CUAC/20 is worth 12 tons because it does 20 damage to a single location. But in MWO, the CUAC/20 burst fires, which fundamentally changes the damage it does to a single location, and no longer makes it worth 12 tons. Thats why its such a bad weapon in MWO.

The same goes for Gauss. When they changed the heat system in MWO to be more punitive than the heat system in Battletech, they fundamentally altered the balance of Gauss and made it significantly better. Additionally getting rid of range modifiers and allowing weapons to fire beyond their battletech max ranges also made Gauss much better than its tabletop counterpart. Gauss is completely out of control in MWO because most of the limitations it had in tabletop dont exist in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 28 September 2015 - 03:10 PM.

[Skarlock]

Vlad Ward, on 26 September 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

How about making short range weapons good inside their range profile again instead of trying to nerf long range weapons into the ground.

Gauss only wins in brawling range combat because AC/20, UAC/20, and SRMs are all ****.

This. Although I would never want to use a gauss at brawling ranges to be honest due to the fact they explode and brawling is damage trading intensive, brawling weapons in general need boosts.

[Homeskilit]

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

thats why linear dropoff rather than 100% dropoff makes more sense IMO.

So gauss at 60m does 15 damage
at 30m does 7.5 damage
at 15m does 3.75 damage

That punishes you heavily for using gauss inside its min range without making gauss completely useless inside its min range.



Yeah because recon sniper teams have to sit there waiting for their rifles to charge up before eliminating targets. lmao.

snipers absolutely DO twitch shot. because if they dont eliminate enemies quickly then the soldiers theyre covering can die. snipers are trained to quickly identify threats, eliminate them, and move onto the next threat.

again, chargeup is a really dumb mechanic that completely contradicts the role of the gauss rifle.

gauss should have linear damage dropoff under 60m, should NOT have chargeup, and should have some kindve damage spreading mechanic implemented so it doesnt apply its full 15 damage to the location it hits. Then it would be a pretty balanced weapon with a clearly defined role.

No the charge up would simulate the exhale and state of mind one must achieve to fire a bullet accurately over long distance while said bullet is effected by environmental conditions. A sniper will understand the terrain and movement of an enemy to predict where the enemy will be coming from and be prepared to shoot at a general area from a fixed position. Snipers are prepared shooters, while running and gunning is essentially what twitch shooting is.

[Khobai]

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No the charge up would simulate the exhale and state of mind one must achieve to fire a bullet accurately over long distance while said bullet is effected by environmental conditions. A sniper will understand the terrain and movement of an enemy to predict where the enemy will be coming from and be prepared to shoot at a general area from a fixed position. Snipers are prepared shooters, while running and gunning is essentially what twitch shooting is.

wut? snipers dont waste time meditating into zen like states before firing at targets. Again every second they wait is a second that a friendly soldier could die if they hesitate to take the shot. Snipers train to be fast and efficient. And they use large caliber rifles so they can take down targets by aiming for their center of mass. They dont waste time aiming for small targets like heads, they train on the center of mass, take the shot, down the target, and move onto the next target.

And exhaling? mechs breathe now? What are you even talking about.

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How about making short range weapons good inside their range profile again instead of trying to nerf long range weapons into the ground.

Gauss only wins in brawling range combat because AC/20, UAC/20, and SRMs are all ****.

Weve already covered this.

Buffing underpowered weapons would only decrease TTK even more. Shorter TTK is not what the game needs.

The game needs longer TTK and the only way to achieve that is nerfing the overpowered weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 28 September 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[Homeskilit]

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

wut? snipers dont waste time meditating into zen like states before firing at targets.

Yes they do, they just practice this hundreds of thousands of times while target shooting so that it becomes second nature and they do it automatically.

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Again every second they wait is a second that a friendly soldier could die if they hesitate to take the shot. Snipers train to be fast and efficient.

The sniper is effective because he is prepared. He has chosen his position carefully and he has practiced to the point when he does not need to think about what he is doing.

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

And they use large caliber rifles so they can take down targets by aiming for their center of mass. They dont waste time aiming for small targets like heads, they train on the center of mass, take the shot, down the target, and move onto the next target.

Pretty good description of a Gauss Rifle, I do not see how it is relevant to the discussion though.

Khobai, on 28 September 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

And exhaling? mechs breathe now? What are you even talking about.

I said it "simulated" as in to assume the appearance or characteristics of" as a retort to you idea that snipers are twitch shooters, which they are not. The infantry man busting in the door and clearing the building is the twitch shooter.

Edited by Homeskilit, 28 September 2015 - 03:34 PM.