14 replies to this topic

[Surn]

One of the major problems in Tukayyid was the unbalanced nature of Defenders vs Attackers.

The clans have Artic Cheaters (ACH) which the IS cannot counter. We lack the massive streak bots, speed or firepower to take down generator rushes by teams of ACH.

While fixing the ACH could balance this problem to an extent ,the greater problem is the speed, armor, firepower and survivability of all Clan mechs. It is extremely difficult to stop a generator rush by a clan team.

They normally use one wave to clear turrets, and then move in with the ACH and 40+ alpha strike the gens and omega. Sometimes it takes 3 waves.

So, the entire event was a generator rush by clan mechs. There was never a chance for the IS to prevail.

So, instead of nerfing the clan mechs...

How about we institute a four quarter or every 8 hour ceasefire to allow the planet to change hands. This will balance the tournaments of this type and add an additional aspect to the endeavor.

Some players may say... but Surn.. now the clans get turrets on their side? However, it is still easier to rush gens than it is to win a battle of attrition vs a top unit.

I say top unit, and not clan unit because nearly all top units are clan due to the inherent advantages for team play that clan mechs accentuate.

[Jess Hazen]

No matter what changes PGI can make to the game in search of balance, whether it be nerfs to the clans and/or buffs to the IS it will never be enough, because the IS crybabies will always well up and cry for more advantages. And do you know what the saddest part of it all is? It is that PGI will listen to those crybabies then bend to their will and find some way to further unbalance the game.

You are right tho in that it is the game mode that is unbalanced.

[Kasechemui]

Well I think the Problem is not the balancing of the mechs. It's the balance of players on clan & IS.
Clans got a better balance of uinits:PUGs and therefore a good chance for stomping a IS PUG group with a CLAN unit while the IS unit is still waiting in the overcrowded queue.

[Rushin Roulette]

The main reason why it was so unbalanced is in the nature of the game. The attacker can play an objective rush and destroy Omega in under 4 minutes and then immediately drop into the next round. The defender is forced to wait out the full 30 minutes or destroy every attacker to win that same game. In the counterattack/counterdefence both sides have the same time consuming win conditions of Omega and most kills after 30 mins.

Thus it is impossible for the defenders to make any fast turnarounds whereas an organised attacker can theoretically turn 5+ sector wins (4 min play with 2 minutes wait for drops in lobby and dropship each game) in the same time a defender can hold or turn only one sector (30min timer counterattack on time out because one of the opponents is stalling for time) if both teams get immediate opponents and uncontested sectors.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 08 December 2015 - 03:14 AM.

[RuneCaster]

I feel like the problem with what's been happening (almost an exact 2:1 kill ration in Clan favor) is that these "canon themed events" are missing parts from the table top game that are really important to this event.

PGI, please hear me out.

IS vs Clan - Combatant organization
To start, IS groups always form up in "Lances" this is a group of 4 mechs of similar tonage or of deliberately mixxed tonage. The Clans form "Stars" under basicly the same ethos, but with 5 mechs per star.

With the difference in damage output, maybe theses IS vs Clan games should be 3 Lances vs 2 Stars (or 12 vs 10).

Tonnage vs Battle Value
Okay, admittingly this would take a LOT of coding so probably isn't as feaseable but should still be thought about. Ballance on the tabletop for tournaments is via Battle Value 2 (or BV2). This takes into account all the weapons systems, support systems, armor and the linke and asigns it a value, then adds those values together to make an over all score. This score is added up to the other mechs in the lance or star to create a total that is used for ballancing (for example, a 10,000 BV2 game, would have mechs that have a total Battle Value of 10,000 points or less). An Atlas D-DC is not the same BV as a Atlas K, even though they share a tonage.

This is a more complex system, but it well evens out the playing field. Besides, waiting to get into a faction game is already has a very, very long wait, a few seconds more to organize BV, or to match BV within a parameter would be worth it if it ment that the IS didn't feel like a whiping boy during these events.

[Svarn Lornon]

I actually don't think that the main problem are the mechs at the moment and especially for this event. as Rushin wrote the problem was in the game modes. IS can't make rush games, the games always take 20-30 minutes. For example we had a nice game against MS, totally wasted their first wave. They saw that they can't go on this way, and in wave 2+3 they basically went for a gen rush. It is a valid tactic and I don't blame them for this but you just can't turn around a game this way if you are on counter attack or defense.
Also there was the issue of the playerbase of course. The higher playerbase didn't actually help the IS troops, because it gave the clan units lot's of PUGs to grind, while the more organized units were sitting around in the queue. I'm not blaming the PUG-groups for this, they have the same right to play and have fun then everyone else. But it surely shifted favors towards the clan-side.
All in all it still was a nice event and somehow less frustrating the the first Tukayid event. Aside from the waiting game we had a lot of fun and good matches

[Iron Buccaneer]

Things were a lot more balanced than the last time they ran this event.

[BlackHeroe]

As for me (who accidentilly landed on Wolf´s side) and the units and PUGs i dropped with, i can say yust we nearly never made a Gen rush, we nearly everytime went for atrittion / kill them all. Except the few games we lost the attrition game in the 1-2 wave, when we tried to take down gens (mostly not rushin - more like Attrition-objective killing). And then most time it depended on how organised our team was - win as organized - loss if not.

But i agree, it would be better to have equal game mode chances!

[Surn]

I think CW is possible to balance with a few changes that will allow the IS to optimize the mechs used. We may not need to do more nerfing of mechs.

#1. Per the original post, give both sides defense missions.

#2. Give the defenders an extra minute to coordinate dropdecks prior the game launch and after the match is made.

#3. Give the IS additional tonnage to balance out the fact that clan mechs are 5 to 10 tons more effective than IS mechs.

Instead of 10 extra tons, maybe it should be 20 to represent 5 tons per mech.

So, this would give clanners higher potential damage scores to earn more money, while giving the IS a better chance to win through coordination instead of quirks.

Also the extra 240tons total fits into the lore based "more mechs for the IS" as it represents about 4 mechs.

#4. Maybe we should not allow players to use trial mechs in CW until they get to tier 3. If they spend the money on mechs, let them play. However, new players will get rolled and discourage themselves and their teammates from playing CW.

We might make it an achievement to unlock CW trial mechs.... "House Kurita has recognized your skill and now grants you the use of garrison mechs to fight for the honor of the house." Maybe the mechs could be unlocked in missions 26-50 by class.

For instance,
Battle #30, Assault chassis unlocked for CW.
Battle #40 Light chassis unlocked for CW
Battle #45 Heavy chassis unlocked for CW
Battle #50 Medium chassis unlocked for CW

Edited by MechregSurn, 08 December 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[Jugger Grimrod]

CW is still basically organized pug-droping. It's not warfare. No freedom of movement. No economy to speak of. No targets of any singular importance. It's become a string of 4-matches with no real value to the end result.

Fixing the depth of the game mode would be better than more wasted efforts to balance what can never be truly balanced, imo.

[Surn]

Jugger Grimrod, on 08 December 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

CW is still basically organized pug-droping. It's not warfare. No freedom of movement. No economy to speak of. No targets of any singular importance. It's become a string of 4-matches with no real value to the end result.

Fixing the depth of the game mode would be better than more wasted efforts to balance what can never be truly balanced, imo.

Well making CW strategic and resource based is another topic. My suggestion is how to balance the tactical combat without more nerfs and quirks.

Edited by MechregSurn, 08 December 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Danjo San]

There is nothing to nerf/quirk/balance ... there is no need for that.
It's simply the players skills, tactics and positioning. Please note: This is coming from a Liao Loyalist. My Unit is not big, Heck we are lucky when 3 Players queue up together.
See the thing is there are lots of lower skill players on IS side, add unorganized or failing to adjust to VOIP Orders into the mix and you have a team, that can only compete with clan drops that are equally unorganized. Also IS Players need to realize that even though it might be fun to play a trebuchet it might not be the most valuable mech to bring to battle. What I am trying to say, if you are complaining about a 12 ACH Invasion that seems to be unstoppable, it might be due to the fact that your selection of mechs is just not valuable enough. You have to realize that anytime during a CW Match you just might end up alongside PUGs against a fully organized and highly tactical team. So bringing the mechs and builds you think are fun to play, or the mechs that look soo cool and you loved them back from the tabletop experience just doesn't really apply to MWO CW. Take them out in quick play... it's fine.
You see the thing is, You have to expect the enemy to bring the most valuable dropdeck, and yes they will most likely be alphawarriors, metabuilds, hitboximmune or whatever you want to call them. So now you are up against 48 Mechs of highest value, and try to beat them with your dropdeck of mediocre mechs? Try hard dying, complain, then rage quit...
Or, and now hear me out, you start bringing just the "best" mechs for the job. What mechs? well that depends on various factors, Attacking? Defending? What Map? Long Range, Short Range? LRM, Ballistic?
I hate to break it to you but on some maps your LRMboats just weaken your entire team, why bring a LRM boat to a map upon which it only can it 20% of the Mechs it targets? why bring long range snipers with high heat output to a map that is so hot your mech shutsdown after one or two shots?
Just saying, a group, even Pug, on whatever side, whatever faction, who has the most valuable Mechs for that perticular situation and listens to what, possibly more experienced players in your group have to say over voip, can defeat any 12 man team.

Problem:
12 ACH's are running for gens, then stop them from running, literally! take their legs, no gens harmed.
Enemy is long range sniping and lurming, stay in cover, don't peek, sooner or later they will have to come closer.
Enemy has set up a strong firing line, stop running at them one by one, push as a group and focus your fire (focus is when somebody says shoot target "A" and everybody just shoots target "A", yes "B" might be closer, but once "A" is gone only "B" is left... How?!?!? use VOIP!)
etc. etc. etc.

so to put it short:
1. bring the right mech to the right map on the right mode!
2. use, listen and obey voip!
3. play smart, adapt to changes in tactics quickly

[Surn]

Danjo,
Adding an extra minute to the dropdeck selection of defenders allows them to choose a better drop deck.
The developers at pgi have not implemented this suggestion already because they either want to sell dropdecks like mechbays, they may not play enough to have mechs to choose from that take time to organize a new dropdeck, or they only play clan mechs that are versatile enough to be used on almost any map.
However adding the extra minute will allow us old, slow IS players to get our entire team in the correct mech for at least the first wave based on the map we are defending. It will have more positive balance impact than all the effort put into PTS.
It wont fix everything, but it is low hanging fruit that will put clan mechs against better IS mechs and we may see top teams on defense in the IS.

Edited by MechregSurn, 09 December 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Rattazustra]

The easiest way to improve this event and any event of such a type:

1. Ban single players from participation. No pugs. If they want to fight they have to group up. Alternatively at least block out the Tier 4+ players from such an event and disallow the use of trial mechs in CW.

2. Improve the social network component of faction play so people CAN actually group up with little effort.

3. Improve the LFG system.

4. Switch individual drop tonnage to a group tonnage system. If someone is an incredible assault mech pilot don't force him to run light mechs to balance out his assault. Leave that to capable light mech pilots and allow them to run four of them if they desire. Just give each group (number in group)x(240)tonnes. And while you are at it get rid of the 10 extra tons for IS that make a joke of any balancing attempt.

5. Add actual tactical elements to the CW maps that force groups to make choices. Destructible map items like sensor stations, artillery bunkers, emergency drop zones, air defence stations, turret power generators, etc. Such things either give an edge to the defender and stop doing so when destroyed, or do nothing for the defender but give an edge to the attack when taken. Also add alternate attack routes that actually offer something unique. Like a small canyon or tunnel that only light mechs can use, a minefield that deals damage to legs but allows a good flanking approach, a lava lake,... The more real tactical decisions a group can make, the better it is for the game as a whole.

6. Make the planet switch sides over the course of the event, if that is what happens. When clans take Tukayyid on day 1 then clans should be the defender on day 2. That way each side gets to play all aspects of the game.

7. ANNOUNCE EVENTS properly. Not one day ahead. Make a schedule of AT LEAST the most important events. Most players have a life. Not everyone sits at home all day, every day, alone and bored with just a TV and a computer to comfort him, waiting for the next event to come out or the next game to get published. Some people actually have to plan their social life.

8. Improve in-game comms. Not just voip, but add more tools to exchange information. Right now there is no way to ask for support, report enemy contacts and so on without using voip. Things often take longer saying than they'd take picking out a quick context menu. Ten years ago pretty much all good tactical games started to have that. It is time MWO catches up. We are sitting in the cockpits of big computerized machines after all. So time to make some use of that tech. Better communication helps small groups and solo players a lot, it strengthens bonds and helps with the formation of permanent groups.

9. Last but not least there is something PGI cannot do, but every player himself can: Accept that if someone is a better mech pilot than you, runs a better loadout than you, has modules that you don't have, works in a team while you yourself pug and has a drop commander while you do not deserves with all right to stomp you into the ground. No, you have no claim whatsoever to win under such circumstances. You are by definition unworthy to prevail. Get better, get organized and only then start thinking about which things may or may not be OP. There is always someone who is better than you. Good players LOVE to lose against opponents who were better, because it means they had a really tense and fun game before. I don't mind losing to a superior team. What I DO mind is losing against game mechanics like overly insane mech quirks and bugged hitboxes on one side and inappropriate nerfs on the other. This is no IS vs. Clans thing. I hate Arctic Cheaters, Firestarters and all other semi-immortal mechs no matter which side I'm fighting on. They ruin the game for everyone involved, even for the winners, who's victory it makes less meaningful. But broken mechs are something PGI needs to fix. It is only normal that players pick the tools that enable them to win. I hate current Arctic Cheaters and Firestarters, not their pilots.

Edited by Rattazustra, 10 December 2015 - 05:23 AM.

[Surn]

Do new players still start in tier 4 or did they move down to tier 5?

My suggestion about not giving players CW trial mech access is meant to be until they move up one tier from the starting tier.